[KINGS] Comments that don't warrant their own thread (Redux)

iowamcnabb said:
Defensive metrics, eye test and the fact that he was the best player on a historically bad defensive team all point to the same thing.

James Harden was chastised for his defense and had actually started to improve near the end of his Rockets tenure so if he can do it, Fox can too.
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Fox is nowhere near the level of incapability of Harden nor has he ever been. Last nights preseason game Fox actually outplayed Davion on defense individually. He was much more effective at getting around screens and attacking ball handlers, is Davion a bad defender because he got screened off consistently? Nah. It's called team defense and being the focal point of the worst defense in history as Fox was is going to have negative repercussions for sure.
 
SacTownKid said:
Fox is nowhere near the level of incapability of Harden nor has he ever been. Last nights preseason game Fox actually outplayed Davion on defense individually. He was much more effective at getting around screens and attacking ball handlers, is Davion a bad defender because he got screened off consistently? Nah. It's called team defense and being the focal point of the worst defense in history as Fox was is going to have negative repercussions for sure.
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dude...
 
SacTownKid said:
Dude... did you read was in the post? It's called a double standard. Nothing is all bad, nor all good. Fox needs to improve but when your team is putting up the worst defense in history and basically no matter who is in is borderline terrible, I think it clearly points to a bigger picture. Role factors in, style, system, all of it.
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You said Fox defended better this last game, that's laughable. Eye test and stat wise.
 
macadocious said:
You said Fox defended better this last game, that's laughable. Eye test and stat wise.
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You missed the entire point of the statement, I said on screens and attacking ball handlers and it was used to represent hyperbole. Early on Davion got crunched on screen after screen and no, that doesn't make him a bad defender. He eventually went under some to compensate. And stats in preseason say that Buddy Hield is the best defender on the team lol. Davion is only 5 points higher than Fox in defensive rating so far and Fox has started each game. Which again is totally different roles and situation.
 
macadocious said:
You said Fox defended better this last game, that's laughable. Eye test and stat wise.
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Davion struggled getting around Nurk screens last night while Fox didn't. Aside from that bully ball 24-sec violation he forced, Davion was a far better scorer than defender against the Blazers.
 
Tetsujin said:
Davion struggled getting around Nurk screens last night while Fox didn't. Aside from that bully ball 24-sec violation he forced, Davion was a far better scorer than defender against the Blazers.
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Case and point:

26 seconds in.

And you know what I say when I see that. Davion sucks? Nope. I'm screaming where is Davions freaking help! haha.
 
SacTownKid said:
Fox is nowhere near the level of incapability of Harden nor has he ever been. Last nights preseason game Fox actually outplayed Davion on defense individually. He was much more effective at getting around screens and attacking ball handlers, is Davion a bad defender because he got screened off consistently? Nah. It's called team defense and being the focal point of the worst defense in history as Fox was is going to have negative repercussions for sure.
Click to expand...

if you believe advanced stats Harden has been a better defender throughout his career.
 
iowamcnabb said:
if you believe advanced stats Harden has been a better defender throughout his career.
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Defensive ratings are almost worthless IMO. There simply aren't many defensive stats that are kept (especially compared to offensive stats), and many of those stats don't necessarily equate to how well that player is on defense. The eye test is still the best way to judge a player's defense.
 
Telemachus said:
Defensive ratings are almost worthless IMO. There simply aren't many defensive stats that are kept (especially compared to offensive stats), and many of those stats don't necessarily equate to how well that player is on defense. The eye test is still the best way to judge a player's defense.
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Exactly. And all we need to say is that the Kings have supposedly been a major key part of this new "advanced" age behind the scenes in the NBA since Vivek took over. haha. Yep, it's worked wonders so far. lol.

Stats are simply the result of whatever you were or are doing and can help guide you to wherever you're trying to get to. Or away for that matter. Deriving cause or definitive reasoning purely from data points will get you nowhere without context.
 
Telemachus said:
Defensive ratings are almost worthless IMO. There simply aren't many defensive stats that are kept (especially compared to offensive stats), and many of those stats don't necessarily equate to how well that player is on defense. The eye test is still the best way to judge a player's defense.
Click to expand...

to me the eye test matches the ratings. Fox is a poor defender most of the time
 
Telemachus said:
Defensive ratings are almost worthless IMO. There simply aren't many defensive stats that are kept (especially compared to offensive stats), and many of those stats don't necessarily equate to how well that player is on defense. The eye test is still the best way to judge a player's defense.
Click to expand...

To some extent I agree but I think that point is why Hollinger cited the teams season average in points allowed when Fox was on the floor.

as to defensive rating more than a few players have it built into their contract so while not perfect, the team and agents have agreed to be paid off it.
 
So with Matt Coleman and DJ Steward cuts (hope they get on Stockton team)
There are 16 Regular Roster and 2 2-way spots left, means one more Reg spot has to be cut very soon

My best guess would be Emanuel Terry, he has a min contract (Some sort of Exhibit 10 or Exhibit 9?)

But I wonder if Robert Woodard is also at risk? His contract is only 1.5 mil 2021 300k 2022 guaranteed
Did not seem to get hardly any minutes this summer/Training camp

Which of these two does everyone think gets the final cut?
 
I think Woodward is done. His offensive game makes New JJ’s look incredible. His defense seems like it can be solid enough but the anti-offense doesn’t make up for it.
 
iowamcnabb said:
to me the eye test matches the ratings. Fox is a poor defender most of the time
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According to the defensive ratings last season everyone was poor most of the time. Just like many stats with Buddy discussions, 5 man advanced is the way to go. The best defensive rating unit with at least 10 games and 20 minutes has Fox in it. The 2nd best had Fox in it. The 3rd best had Fox in it and so on. The truth is Fox has to be careful the way he does play defense. If he picks up quick fouls then it probably doesn't matter what kind of defense the Kings play and that's just the truth. We have to see the Kings in a more aggressive defense that fits the abilities of these players before judging. We KNOW Rex's help system was garbage for just about everyone.

Look at the defensive ratings for the players that actually got real minutes in the month of February for craps sake:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&Month=5&TeamID=1610612758&CF=MIN*GE*10

All of it, total garbage. Post all star Tyrese had a defensive rating 1 point higher than Fox's and a net rating of -6. 4.5 points lower than Fox. Is he a terrible defender? I think both he and Fox aren't incapable but if you're going by the advanced stats you can't be picky here they are apparently both "poor".
 
SacTownKid said:
According to the defensive ratings last season everyone was poor most of the time. Just like many stats with Buddy discussions, 5 man advanced is the way to go. The best defensive rating unit with at least 10 games and 20 minutes has Fox in it. The 2nd best had Fox in it. The 3rd best had Fox in it and so on. The truth is Fox has to be careful the way he does play defense. If he picks up quick fouls then it probably doesn't matter what kind of defense the Kings play and that's just the truth. We have to see the Kings in a more aggressive defense that fits the abilities of these players before judging. We KNOW Rex's help system was garbage for just about everyone.

Look at the defensive ratings for the players that actually got real minutes in the month of February for craps sake:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&Month=5&TeamID=1610612758&CF=MIN*GE*10

All of it, total garbage. Post all star Tyrese had a defensive rating 1 point higher than Fox's and a net rating of -6. 4.5 points lower than Fox. Is he a terrible defender? I think both he and Fox aren't incapable but if you're going by the advanced stats you can't be picky here they are apparently both "poor".
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I think Hali is a poor defender as well. Are you of the opinion they are both good defenders?
 
iowamcnabb said:
I think Hali is a poor defender as well. Are you of the opinion they are both good defenders?
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Well then what about everyone else on that list then?

No, I'm of the opinion that there are some major double standards in most comments being made and that there were wild swings all season in terms of all the Kings advanced stats. I'm of the opinion that the data samples were tainted so you can't fully decide yet. Both have definite positive defensive capabilities relative to their talents that have to first be utilized correctly before judging. In terms of being "all world" level, no, likely not. However Fox has shown glimpses of legit 2 way superstar ability at times and Tyrese has shown tremendous understanding of playing passing lanes which are both aspects of defense. The fact is the league doesn't really allow anyone to be a "classic stopper". If you have a legit screener you will annihilate almost every aspect of playing individual on ball defense and force teams to switch as you saw with an ELITE one on one defender in Davion when he met Jusuf Nurkic head on. The truth is they let a lot of bigs like that get away with ILLEGAL screens so they can prop up talents that make their name off of shooting off screen and roll.
 
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