EIM86
Starter
Team lacks leadership. Get rid of Walton
[KINGS] Comments that don't warrant their own thread (Redux)
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Well, that was almost two years ago. We have every reason to believe the energy level and vibe is and hopefully will remain VERY different now.
That said, yeah, it's hard to feel good about Luke. Finding the right rotation, combinations, and schemes could make a real difference w/this squad - let's hope Luke and the coaching staff prove up to it.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Fox always says the right things, now we need to see it. His shot looked good the other night and he is definitely stronger. Let’s see if he follows through on the defensive improvement
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Just saying, but in both preseason games so far if I didn't know who the head coach was I would pick DC. He's constantly up and moving and talking with the guys. He and Luke could be a decent pairing if Luke lets it happen.
EIM86
Starter
that’s the one thing I want to see. He just needs to be solid like Curry is and that’ll be good enough
sactowndog
All-Star
Hollinger’s Preview is out…..
Hollinger’s 2021-22 Sacramento Kings preview: Lineup, roster, prediction, is this the year playoff drought ends?
https://theathletic.com/2866809/202...yoff-drought-ends/?source=user_shared_article
one relevant quote to the recent discussion:
The Kings’ defense was particularly pliable when Fox played, surrendering 118 points per 100 possessions in his 2,036 minutes — worrisome considering he’s the franchise centerpiece.
Hollinger’s 2021-22 Sacramento Kings preview: Lineup, roster, prediction, is this the year playoff drought ends?
https://theathletic.com/2866809/202...yoff-drought-ends/?source=user_shared_article
one relevant quote to the recent discussion:
The Kings’ defense was particularly pliable when Fox played, surrendering 118 points per 100 possessions in his 2,036 minutes — worrisome considering he’s the franchise centerpiece.
Shaqfuey
Bench
I think these stats need to be taken with a grain of salt as well. Fox played the second most minutes (next to Barnes), so he is on there for most of the good and the bad. That also means he is on there for the majority of Buddy, Bagley, and others that found defense to be more optional than required. I believe Fox has the speed, intelligence, and instincts to be a solid defender. Or, I will just hope it's good enough like another poster mentioned with Curry.
Let's not find excuses for DFox - he was an electric scorer and very often an indifferent/BAD defender. For this team to get where we all want it to go, he needs to do much better on that end of the floor.
The very good news, as you say, is that De'Aaron has more than enough smarts and athleticism, and has steadily added the strength needed, to be a plus defender (and maybe more). With Hali, Buddy, Davion and Davis there's more than enough quality backcourt depth to render obsolete the excuse that he needs to play a bajillion minutes or save his effort for offensive heroics. Davion even brings an incredible example of defensive smarts and aggression to his grill every practice.
It's largely a matter of Fox's will now, and he's saying the right things. We'll see.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Fox has shown flashes of being able to play some pretty solid defense, but overall I’d agree that he’s pretty horrible on that end.
Can’t imagine there’s much accountability from good old “players coach” Luke Walton, so hopefully Davion fever catches on and motivates more Kings to give a crap about defense. Only good things can come of that!
Can’t imagine there’s much accountability from good old “players coach” Luke Walton, so hopefully Davion fever catches on and motivates more Kings to give a crap about defense. Only good things can come of that!
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Fox's defense is really frustrating. He has size, length, agility and now the strength to be a plus defender. He says all the right things in interviews. So what is the problem? The only thing I can think of is if he is just conserving energy for the offensive end ( maybe even told to do so)
Watch at .26 and .43 in the game against the Clippers. Sure, it was just a preseason game but yikes.
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Yikes, indeed. That's All-Star Game-level "defense." Obviously he *could* do much better. This is where his chummy relationship with Walton becomes especially suspect. He needs a coach who'll plant his all-star-caliber a$$ on the bench if he keeps up that nonsense.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Part of it could also be like Buddy, people seem to look for the bad with a microscope. If Buddy's turnovers issues were as bad as some make them out to be he would be averaging far more than 1.7 per game for his career. With both Buddy and Fox we've seen more solid individual defense than bad when you get down the nuts and bolts of it. Fox had legit 2 way superstar moments last year. Fox tried to avoid the contact at .43 and guessed wrong. It happens. I'm sure the plan is once they are that deep is to let the rim help come up. Tristan was as equally as guilty for being under the rim and not in a position to challenge. Players do not get around Fox with ease and never really have. On team and help he's looked confused at times, but who hasn't lol.
Sluggah
All-Star
I think this is where Christie steps in and plays that role (minus the benching)...probably because he won’t be able to help himself, but hopefully it’ll be by design. Best case, it works as a ‘good cop/bad cop’ type scenario. Worst case…ehhhh.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
I actually don’t harp on Buddy’s defense because you can tell he tries his hardest. He gives great effort, he just doesn’t have it on that end. Fox’s effort reminds me a lot of Tyreke Evans. With him, it would be one breathtaking defensive stop followed by what appeared to be lack of effort and or a mental lapse. I’m a big fan of Swipa, but we need him to get to league average or it’s hard to imagine us getting to where we want to go.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
You talked about conserving energy so that could be a part of it, but also not trying to pick up fouls. That move of getting away from the contact in the play posted was just that. Evans had some limitations due to his size and lack of speed laterally. He was a huge target on screens and like we saw with Bogdan, once they get held up there is no recovering. Fox can and should be excellent on defense but this isn't a league right now where being the end all on both sides is probably going to do anything other than get you in foul trouble. I really hope we continue to see more focus on individual pressure defense rather than funneling or overhelping, that's where Fox can be a difference maker. IF the refs allow it of course.
sactowndog
All-Star
somebody much wiser than I once said athletes are motivated in one of 3 ways:
1) pursuit of Glory
2) fear of failure
3) love of competition.
they all have their strengths and weaknesses but Fox is clearly motivated by 1. The upside of that is he loves to take and often makes the big shot. He doesn’t shrink from the spotlight. The downside is not much glory in defense.
Hard to judge from afar - and could be sum of many issues - but I just don't know if he's that interested. You can tell Davion and Holmes are dialled in just by watching. HB isn't a natural difference maker on D but seems to bring focus and apply himself. Buddy and MBIII are obviously lacking awareness at that end - although I think MBIII's issues are compounded by poor guard play. To me - Fox just doesn't seem engaged on D.
Fox made a comment at the end of last season - Monte said that he and Hali could/ should be a better defensive backcourt. So he's at least been told.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
Reasons for something occurring doesn't equal "excuses". The things @Shaqfuey pointed out are valid.
Also, Swipa is not a BAD defender. That's just more hyperbole from fans. I wish some of you would be as strictly and unforgivably critical of your own opinions as you are of these players. But I digress.
We all would like every player on this roster to be better in all aspects. With regard to Fox, we'd all love him to be an all-world defender. Or at least a very good one. But he's not a bad one. IDC what stats you want to cite. Defensive metrics aren't totally objective or accurate. A lot of subjectivity and guesswork goes into them.
Fox is a good defender when he wants to be. Like a lot of players, he conserves his energy and picks his spots because it ain't easy to go all out on both ends. Like most players, he just needs to be more consistent on that end. And develop a little bit more pride in it.
DFox "was an electric scorer and very often an indifferent/BAD defender."
I'm comfortable w/that take, thanks. Sounds like we agree that he could do much better.
macadocious
Starter
Fox could be a good defender. He is not currently a good defender.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Defensive metrics, eye test and the fact that he was the best player on a historically bad defensive team all point to the same thing.
James Harden was chastised for his defense and had actually started to improve near the end of his Rockets tenure so if he can do it, Fox can too.
James Harden was chastised for his defense and had actually started to improve near the end of his Rockets tenure so if he can do it, Fox can too.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
I’m even more comfortable (and correct) with my rebuttal. Thanks as well.
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KingsFanSince85
All-Star
Not a good defender, but also not a bad defender either. Some aren’t getting that.
But we all seem to agree that he certainly can be a better defender.
That applies to most players, honestly.
sactowndog
All-Star
perhaps but his defensive numbers have declined as has the teams. It’s core to why I would trade him for Simmons and role with Mitchell and Hali as my starters
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Rank your top ten rotational players from best to worst defensively.
Here is mine:
Mitchell
Holmes
Barnes
Davis
Mo
TT
Hali
Fox
Buddy
Bagley
Here is mine:
Mitchell
Holmes
Barnes
Davis
Mo
TT
Hali
Fox
Buddy
Bagley
sactowndog
All-Star
Can Fox improve? Sure he has the physical tools to do so.
Will he improve? Perhaps but I don’t see much improvement so far and he hasn’t improved over the last couple years.
when your team numbers are as Hollinger stated…..
The Kings’ defense was particularly pliable when Fox played, surrendering 118 points per 100 possessions in his 2,036 minutes — worrisome considering he’s the franchise centerpiece. Subjectively, transition defense also seemed like a constant problem.
you have a real problem…
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
It’s interesting that you have Len that high. He was really solid for us last go around but I don’t recall much specifically about his game. I didn’t include him because I wasnt sure he would get minutes. I really like TD’s game and could see him making a jump defensively. Hali is another one to keep an eye on. In the past I’ve compared him to the CB that gets 9 picks but gets blown by the rest of the time. He doesn’t look much stronger yet so I will be really interested to see if he finds a way to get better.
I think Len has been overall a better defender than Holmes but they're probably interchangeable. I'm giving it to Len because he's been better overall throughout his career and hasn't dropped off a cliff yet. If this was 3 years ago, I'd have Harkless as the clear cut #2 but his defensive level has dropped off the last couple years.
I think there's 3 levels. Mitchell is on a level of his own. Len through TD are all around the average level for their positions and the rest of the guys are way below average. TT did have what may have been his best defensive year last year but I need to see more than one year of it before I believe he's average. He hasn't quite passed the eye test so far in preseason as far as defense around the rim goes but he does make up for it a bit with his rebounding.
I'm with you on Haliburton. He has by far the best knack for breakaway steals on the team but he's a revolving door like Fox is. You notice his steals because they jump out at you but you don't notice the other handful of possessions where his man just went right by him with minimal resistance. Similar to what we saw from Fox in that video. Those plays are difficult to notice in real time so they don't stick in your brain but you do notice when he gets a flashy steal or when Fox gets in a defensive stance and locks up a PG 1 on 1.
Mitchell
Holmes
TD(Would love to get a big minutes sample if he can recover his rookie form)
Barnes
Len
TT
Harkless
Jumbled mess of pretty bad
Fox
Hali
Buddy
Bagley
The good news is if we include the summer league, the Kings as an organization have clearly prioritized playing harder on the defensive end through 8 games. Still some stupid silly mistakes, but I haven't seen the general lack of interest in competing on that end like we did for a good portion of last year.
Holmes
TD(Would love to get a big minutes sample if he can recover his rookie form)
Barnes
Len
TT
Harkless
Jumbled mess of pretty bad
Fox
Hali
Buddy
Bagley
The good news is if we include the summer league, the Kings as an organization have clearly prioritized playing harder on the defensive end through 8 games. Still some stupid silly mistakes, but I haven't seen the general lack of interest in competing on that end like we did for a good portion of last year.
