ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Imagine if the only way they were able to get good production out of a starter, of which the team needs in order to be at it's best,...was to call his number in order to showcase him for a trade. That would be disappointing
[Game] Kings @ Cleveland Cavaliers, 2/5/2024, 4:00p PT, 7:00p ET
- Thread starter Capt. Factorial
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Imagine if the only way they were able to get good production out of a starter, of which the team needs in order to be at it's best,...was to call his number in order to showcase him for a trade. That would be disappointing
Yep, this is all exactly right. In order to get better against pick and rolls (which is still the preferred mode of scoring throughout the league) we need a a big guy who can effectively show and recover while also being tall enough to deter shots in the paint and we need them on the floor a lot next to our starters. But if we get someone like that we're going to have to give up some degree of floor spacing and alter our DHO heavy offense to account for another big guy on the floor who likely isn't going to be able to pull defenders out of the paint. One way or another a compromise will be involved. Either we continue as a team of shooters who struggles to deny dribble penetration and the inevitable kick-out threes which follow or we lose some of that offensive efficiency that we've defined ourselves by in order to more consistently get stops.
megapoxy
Starter
The minute Kyle mentioned that "Strus has a subpar season shooting just 34% from the 3 point line" I knew he would "torch" us in this match. He hit 2 quick threes after missing the 1st one (that caused Kyle's comment) and he was the "catalyst" hitting plenty more later on including those "Alvarado" steals to Sabonis that led to 5 easy points. Btw it looked that in the first steal he stepped out of bounds and Sabonis was convinced that he was fouled in the 2nd one, hard to tell from the replay though.
So many threes, so few foul calls and free throws especially when the margin was small, as someone else pointed out 0 misses from our starters, I don't know if any other team had their starters not going to the line at all during a match this season. And those defensive 3 seconds violation were going on for ever but took 25+ minutes for the refs to "notice" that.
We would probably lose if the "zebras" were fair I guess, but it's disrespectful the way they avoid giving fouls in favor of Fox, Sabonis and Monk when they make drives to the basket, while Davion was also fouled a couple of times as well. Still they managed to cover the gap in the end when everything was decided so looking at the box score wouldn't make it obvious how the whistles went.
Perhaps MB should have tried his last year gimmick and march inside the court to get ejected to turn things around.
Fox wasn't his usual self, he didn't seem calm, in the first timeout called he looked pissed and went straight to his chair avoiding handshakes, Murray started well but disappeared after the 1st quarter. I don't know if it is worrying but "statistically" he looks like Harrison Barnes, not attempting shots, not getting rebounds (had 1) but I assume it's due to him having to guard the opponents' star player that doesn't allow him to crash the boards and burns his energy not letting him "cook" in the offense at the same time. I would like to see both our forwards playing well together offensively at some point.
Kessler was good not sure why he played for such a limited time, Javale on the other hand was a disaster, no clue where his "vocal presence" makes the difference, he is "sloppy" in both sides of the court and for sure that wasn't the worst performance of the season. Will remain a mystery why Len is sidelined, another mystery with Keon that played in garbage time (still he is supposed not to exceed 50 matches as 2 way player, and if I am not wrong he never played with the Stockton Kings this season), will they convert his contract passed the deadline in case there is still a roster spot available? We will find out in 3 days I guess. A bit off topic regarding Len, back in the day in Atlanta he was starting making threes but I don't know if he even made a single one for the Kings the last 3 seasons (he had made one before leaving for Toronto).
Now we need to destroy the Pistons, in this very tricky matchup, not letting them score 50 in the first quarter if possible, in order to face the worst schedule of all time that follows after that match.
So many threes, so few foul calls and free throws especially when the margin was small, as someone else pointed out 0 misses from our starters, I don't know if any other team had their starters not going to the line at all during a match this season. And those defensive 3 seconds violation were going on for ever but took 25+ minutes for the refs to "notice" that.
We would probably lose if the "zebras" were fair I guess, but it's disrespectful the way they avoid giving fouls in favor of Fox, Sabonis and Monk when they make drives to the basket, while Davion was also fouled a couple of times as well. Still they managed to cover the gap in the end when everything was decided so looking at the box score wouldn't make it obvious how the whistles went.
Perhaps MB should have tried his last year gimmick and march inside the court to get ejected to turn things around.
Fox wasn't his usual self, he didn't seem calm, in the first timeout called he looked pissed and went straight to his chair avoiding handshakes, Murray started well but disappeared after the 1st quarter. I don't know if it is worrying but "statistically" he looks like Harrison Barnes, not attempting shots, not getting rebounds (had 1) but I assume it's due to him having to guard the opponents' star player that doesn't allow him to crash the boards and burns his energy not letting him "cook" in the offense at the same time. I would like to see both our forwards playing well together offensively at some point.
Kessler was good not sure why he played for such a limited time, Javale on the other hand was a disaster, no clue where his "vocal presence" makes the difference, he is "sloppy" in both sides of the court and for sure that wasn't the worst performance of the season. Will remain a mystery why Len is sidelined, another mystery with Keon that played in garbage time (still he is supposed not to exceed 50 matches as 2 way player, and if I am not wrong he never played with the Stockton Kings this season), will they convert his contract passed the deadline in case there is still a roster spot available? We will find out in 3 days I guess. A bit off topic regarding Len, back in the day in Atlanta he was starting making threes but I don't know if he even made a single one for the Kings the last 3 seasons (he had made one before leaving for Toronto).
Now we need to destroy the Pistons, in this very tricky matchup, not letting them score 50 in the first quarter if possible, in order to face the worst schedule of all time that follows after that match.
This is essentially what I was alluding to as well though I don't expect them to trade off being assertive so much as I expect Fox, Domas, Monk, and Coach Brown to be able to call plays on the fly for both of them depending on matchup advantages, who is currently hot, who is able to rest more on defense, etc. I'd like to see them both embrace the assertive role more often too by not being afraid to make something happen if the offense is starting to stagnate or we've missed a lot of threes in a row or we've given up a big run and need to stop the bleeding. We're had some games when Fox and Monk took over and good things happened and some games when they tried to take over and the wheels fell off. That's when we need our two Iowa-born forwards to step up and just play bully ball -- back someone down all the way into the paint and shoot over them. Mix in some simple stuff that works instead of all pull-up threes and high-flying circus passes.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Why? That's how you do it haha. Much better than the previous regime. If Monte has a plan you have to shine up the goods and finish the job. That said, Monte isn't likely making a trade involving someone like Barnes just to do it. Huerter maybe. I still think there needs to be some type of talent consolidation. If it were as simple as adding a defender first at any one position then the Duarte at SG move probably wouldn't have failed as clearly as it did. But it did and the offense cratered 7 ratings points while the defense remained about the same. That could have been due to a lack of chemistry though so who knows. Maybe it was just the wrong guy in that role too but shots need to go to your best shot makers on average. The NBA has never been any different so unless you are a literal all star team in terms of depth you better have a pecking order.
megapoxy
Starter
Regarding the 3 point opponents' curse...
The Kings give up the 8th fewest "open" 3PAs in the league. Opponents are shooting 36% on these, which is 10th highest in the NBA
— Professor OAK 🇵🇸 (@o_a_khan) February 6, 2024
The Kings give up the 14th most "wide open" 3PAs in the NBA. Opponents shoot 42.2% on these. This is second highest in the NBA
It's just bad luck
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
This is an all or nothing team. On both ends. Personally I think the Warriors style of defense that helps off in the paint was exposed last season. It's mostly based on percentages. You won't be the worst but you also won't be the best. And your nights are going to vary greatly depending on if the opposing team is hitting shots. Both the Warriors and Kings are like that this season. Up in the middle range. The issue for Sac this year is that the offense has gone from 1st to 14th. If the Kings offense sustained over into this year and they are 17th on defense? This is probably a top seed in the West.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
To me, this team has clearly played better when Barnes is active and involved. I'm not against trading him,... just that it would be disappointing that they could have got a lot more out of him all this time, had they been more proactive in getting him shots on a regular basis
I seem to recall we had similar bad luck last year. But after enough instances of bad luck, one does begin to wonder whether there's something other than luck involved.
Which is only a problem if he's not scoring like he has for a better part of the last 3 years. And, to give him credit, his defense has picked up the last month or so, even before the scoring surge.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
For sure. We'll see what happens but I think this balance of Barnes on offense Keegan on defense and system play is working better if it stays this way. Is it a contender? That's the question. Monte has made it pretty clear, his core is Fox, Keegan, and Domas. Anything outside of that is a question of how you get to where you are trying to get to as a team. Now obviously everyone is movable. If the Celtics offered Tatum or the Bucks offered Giannis for Keegan he'd be gone so quick his head would spin. Obviously that ain't happening haha.
At this point, there's not much less I'd accept back in a deal for Keegan. He's just flashing WAY too much on both ends that you have to see where his ceiling goes. The absolute worst thing you could do is trade him for a lower tier star type and then he goes on to be Paul George for the next decade. I think his range out of outcomes has to include superstar at this point and you just don't ever trade that kind of piece away unless it's an absolute no brainer. If you have to think for a second if the trade is fair, it's not worth dealing Keegan.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Probably not a contender in terms of a real shot at beating Denver in a series, but I think they would have beat the Warriors and then the Lakers in the playoffs, had they brought this aggressive version of Barnes into that series
captain bill
All-Star
I don't think that's necessarily the case but I wouldn't write it off as a possibility. I think the simpler explanation is that Uncle Keegs came into the year playing an expanded role, which necessarily cut into HB's (who the team famously wasn't calling plays for). They may have simply needed a large enough sample size to realize they needed to retool to keep HB involved.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
We can't let Barnes off the hook though. This is still kind of a Barnes thing too. He doesn't look to feast all the time. It might have just been a one time thing but the only players that looked like they were ready to take those shots come playoff time were Fox and Monk. And Monk was as up and down as they come. Fox got hurt and it was over. The Kings lost 4 out of 5 to finish if off to what we can probably say was far from the team to beat in the Warriors. This is why games against teams like the Cavs are a good test. When that physical play and the grind comes in how the Kings respond is the mostly likely precursor to what your playoffs will look like. Hot shooting has gotten teams pretty far in previous years but it's the superteams like the Suns or Clippers that might change things because the landscape has changed.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
That may be true and may be what ends up happening as far as the expanded role post deadline, but this certainly looks like showcasing 101 and pushing down players not seen as long term pieces. Davion even re-entered the rotation. So far if you go by what Monte has done trade wise he's not one to keep tight lips on his trade interests. Everyone was reporting his interest in Domas. His talks with the Hawks. His interest in Beal, etc. The pieces might not be totally accurate as seen with the Collins interest supposedly to eventually getting Huerter but the smoke lines up geographically. It's the players like Kuzma and Collins that are interesting. Monte didn't even really try to get Kuzma when he had the space to do it. He also didn't go after Collins when he was had for literally NOTHING.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
What if Barnes is a player personality who needs his number called and to be told regularly that they need him taking shots and being aggressive. Clearly we would hope players would take most it upon themselves to get the most out of themselves for the team, but what if they just don't operate that way?
The very best coaches use different strategies to get the most out of different player personalities...and are willing to adapt when a course they thought would work, is not getting the most out of someone and a team
reptilexcq2
Bench
Teams tend to shoot well against the Kings cuz they don't fear their defense. It's like party time for them whenever they play the Kings. GS for example, enjoy playing the Kings...it's like shooting practice, so is Wolves...even Anthony Edward said so enjoy playing at G1Center. That's a problem if team enjoy playing the Kings. TO change that perception, Kings need replace soft players with tough players. So when they play the Kings, they'll be like shooot...now I got to face this tough tough player from the Kings.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
The Cavs are now 19-4 over the last 23 games. No one is talking about them but they might need to start.
captain bill
All-Star
The most straightforward explanation is that when we give up open 3's, we're giving them up to opposing teams best shooters. If teams have figured out they can make extra passes and our help defense will abandon the biggest 3 point threats, that would explain it well.
They started slow, but man they have the horsepower to take anyone out. Mitchell is an elite #1, plenty of secondary scoring/playmaking and elite elite defense with 2 rim protecting bigs. They can go small, they can go big and all their shooting is really starting to click over the last month or so.
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
I'm not at all concerned with this game. It was a great road trip. The Kings played with effort in this game, especially considering it was the last game of a long road trip. Cleveland is very good and they shot the lights out.
If the Kings keep up the energetic effort, they will be getting a lot of wins at home.
If the Kings keep up the energetic effort, they will be getting a lot of wins at home.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
so is the difference here between "open" and "wide open" simply a matter of contesting a shot in the first word and no contest in the other?
This is exactly what I was going to say. We need to figure out how to stop being a team people love playing against (presumably because it's a wide open up-and-down fast-paced game) and instead become a team that people hate playing against. What type of game does everyone hate playing? A game where you have to grind out every basket and nothing comes easy. We may be contesting shots but we're not pushing anybody out of their comfort zone. Just standing there with a hand up is often not enough against NBA players. The best defenders don't just move their feet and contest, they know how to make their opponent uncomfortable.
I think it's by feet.
0-3 is contested
5+ feet is open
10+feet is wide open
Or something close to that.
megapoxy
Starter
And on the opposite side we have the Timberwolves and the Pelicans that allow their opponents to shoot the most 3 pointers in the league (at least that's what the announcers told when we were playing against them) however their opponents 3point percentage is somehow the worst. I don't know if this has changed since the time we faced them and I guess it helps those teams that they have defenders with long hands (Jones, McDaniels) to make things harder for the shooter of the opposing team.
Agreed
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
a couple of nights ago, I was watching Artest defensive highlights and he defended OKC Durant masterfully, no air space, always into him and made him feel him every single possession, no plays off.
GWD
Bench
It seems like the game was defended differently back then with the rules interpretations being what they were then and are now. I didn't watch what you did, but how many times would Artest have been called for a foul nowadays for his highlighted play?
It doesn't seem possible to "defend without fouling", as the King's mantra expresses. A tight defense will inevitably cause a bit of contact and then the offensive-minded refs toot on their whistles. An up-and-coming Keegan ends up with an early riding of the bench as a result.
Anyone remember when Fox would take the challenge of the opposing player (such as Mitchell) personal? Meaning he would go toe-to-toe. Seems like those days are gone.
Wish he would just rest up and get that shoulder right.
I don't see us as anything other that a play-in team this year anyway becaise we crumble amytime teams play defense.
Wish he would just rest up and get that shoulder right.
I don't see us as anything other that a play-in team this year anyway becaise we crumble amytime teams play defense.
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