[Game] Kings @ Celtics - 2/7/16 - 10 PT, 1 ET

I know Karl is getting the brunt of the heat right now but I really hope fans don't give the players a pass either. We beat the Hawks with good defense even with the crappy schemes. They were playing way harder during the 5 game win streak than they have been during this pathetic collapse. We have some soft players that fold at the first sign of adversity, thats all I will say.
 
Effort on the defensive end. That is not Karl's Fault. Maybe match ups and scheme is. Effort is not. Inexcusable.

You keep preaching effort, but these are human beings. When you know the scheme doesn't work, how long can you keep putting maximum effort. How enthusiastically can any person put full effort into any endeavor when they know they can not achieve the desired result. It's just not realistic to expect that of a person. Yes they make a lot of money. But human nature overrides that.
 
You keep preaching effort, but these are human beings. When you know the scheme doesn't work, how long can you keep putting maximum effort. How enthusiastically can any person put full effort into any endeavor when they know they can not achieve the desired result. It's just not realistic to expect that of a person. Yes they make a lot of money. But human nature overrides that.

If, as a player you don't believe that the defensive scheme is going to work if you put out your best effort, then you absolutely confirm that it won't work if you don't. It's just a ridiculous argument. With no effort, you have zero chance of winning. You can call that what you want, but I call it quitting, and I despise quitters. There's nothing worse than busting your butt while your playing next to someone that's decided to take the day off.
 
If, as a player you don't believe that the defensive scheme is going to work if you put out your best effort, then you absolutely confirm that it won't work if you don't. It's just a ridiculous argument. With no effort, you have zero chance of winning. You can call that what you want, but I call it quitting, and I despise quitters. There's nothing worse than busting your butt while your playing next to someone that's decided to take the day off.

I'm not talking about making a conscious effort to not try. Someone who can blindly put max effort into something that doesn't work is about as bright as a box of rocks.
 
Cousins is flat out done with Karl. Just no interest in playing defense and letting Jared Sullinger of all people bully him and gone back to December Cousins of forcing shots on offense.
Sullinger has crapped on Cousins going back to Malone's days he's a nightmare match up cause Cousins can't move him and Sullinger could spread the floor going the other way. Add in the fact he's got a way higher IQ and Cousins can basically only be effective stat padding at the end of games against him.
 
I know Vlade is a Kings favourite but unless there is some dramatic turn around he's plenty guilty and should be fired also.

He blindly invested in a core of 3 guys two have never been winners Cousins/Rudy (Memphis always lost in the 1st round with him and Toronto become a near elite regular season team in the East) and Rondo since his knee injury has done nothing but tank teams in Boston/Dallas and he expected these three to lead us in a Western Conference which luckly has been ravaged by injury giving us grossly false hope.

His signings has played below average in particular Kk and Belli and Casspi wanted to comeback and was a cheap contract so not sure how much credit I can give here honestly Quincy Acy (considering he makes les s than 1 mil) was his best signing off the off season he's actually helped us win a couple games. The James Anderson/Caron Butler and giving a spot to Dukan have been the biggest waste of money/roster spots in recent memory.

The WCS (I love the fact he's here he's the only good thing on the team) pick was great and he could end up being my favourite King of all time but I look at guys like Myles Turner/Stanley Johnson and even Devin Booker who are 3 years younger with higher ceilings and are already probably better than WCS.

Waiting this long to fire Karl and not giving us the option of tanking is just icing on the cake.
 
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I know Vlade is a Kings favourite but unless there is some dramatic turn around he's plenty guilty and should be fired also.

He blindly invested in a core of 3 guys two have never been winners Cousins/Rudy (Memphis always lost in the 1st round with him and Toronto become a near elite regular season team in the East) and Rondo since his knee injury has done nothing but tank teams in Boston/Dallas and he expected these three to lead us in a Western Conference which luckly has been ravaged by injury giving us grossly false hope.

His signings has played below average in particular Kk and Belli and Casspi wanted to comeback and was a cheap contract so not sure how much credit I can give here honestly Quincy Acy (considering he makes les s than 1 mil) was his best signing off the off season he's actually helped us win a couple games. The James Anderson/Caron Butler and giving a spot to Dukan have been the biggest waste of money/roster spots in recent memory.

The WCS (I love the fact he's here he's the only good thing on the team) pick was great and he could end up being my favourite King of all time but I look at guys like Myles Turner/Stanley Johnson and even Devin Booker who are 3 years younger with higher ceilings and are already probably better than WCS.

Waiting this long to fire Karl and not giving us the option of tanking is just icing on the cake.

crap like this is aggravating and borderline trolling. How in the hell did Vlade do a bad job?! I guess he should have known marco would underachieve maybe he should have signed W.Matthews oh that's right he's underachieving on a max contract.

****ing Turner/Booker you would have went ape crap if Vlade drafted them let me guess whoever didn't draft Porzingis should be fired. Let's act like WCS and Cousins don't fit together and tgat WCS doesn't have a very good impact but does get 30mpg.
 
poopoo like this is aggravating and borderline trolling. How in the hell did Vlade do a bad job?! I guess he should have known marco would underachieve maybe he should have signed W.Matthews oh that's right he's underachieving on a max contract.

****ing Turner/Booker you would have went ape poopoo if Vlade drafted them let me guess whoever didn't draft Porzingis should be fired. Let's act like WCS and Cousins don't fit together and tgat WCS doesn't have a very good impact but does get 30mpg.
How is it trolling Myles Turner has been ridiculously good (I Love WCS) and his upside aside from Big Kat and Zinger is unmatched in the draft and Vlade basically replaced short term trash in JT/Landry/Nik into long term overpaid trash in Marco and KK and ****ed over Darren (who's playing out of position as a spark plug scorer and sg) to bring in Rondo who plays zero D and basically is playing like Grevis Vasquez was the year before he came here. His biggest mistake was investing in a SUPERLOW CEILING core of Cuz/Gay/Rondo which made the other signings even worse we got 4 guy on the roster that are not even NBA quailty ethier.

I love Vlade but if this contiunes his off season was trash.


If there's been one thing this team has excelled at during the last 10 years and the combo of Cuz/Gay it's quiting prior to the All Star break they are elite in this area.
 
I know Vlade is a Kings favourite but unless there is some dramatic turn around he's plenty guilty and should be fired also.

He blindly invested in a core of 3 guys two have never been winners Cousins/Rudy (Memphis always lost in the 1st round with him and Toronto become a near elite regular season team in the East) and Rondo since his knee injury has done nothing but tank teams in Boston/Dallas and he expected these three to lead us in a Western Conference which luckly has been ravaged by injury giving us grossly false hope.

His signings has played below average in particular Kk and Belli and Casspi wanted to comeback and was a cheap contract so not sure how much credit I can give here honestly Quincy Acy (considering he makes les s than 1 mil) was his best signing off the off season he's actually helped us win a couple games. The James Anderson/Caron Butler and giving a spot to Dukan have been the biggest waste of money/roster spots in recent memory.

The WCS (I love the fact he's here he's the only good thing on the team) pick was great and he could end up being my favourite King of all time but I look at guys like Myles Turner/Stanley Johnson and even Devin Booker who are 3 years younger with higher ceilings and are already probably better than WCS.

Waiting this long to fire Karl and not giving us the option of tanking is just icing on the cake.
Lol.

Why do you watch this team when you seem to hate everything about it top to bottom? Just like trolling actual fans or what?

Vlade didn't sign cuz or Rudy so not sure what your point was there. He inherited them.

That said, you're right about butler/Dujan/Anderson. Then again, they're just roster filler. Cheap too. But even as roster filler, they're brutally bad. Dujan doesn't even deserve a spot in the d league. Butler should retire. And Anderson should be back in Europe.

The option of tanking was out this summer. This season was playoffs or... There never was a plan B that I'm aware of.
 
Lol.

Why do you watch this team when you seem to hate everything about it top to bottom? Just like trolling actual fans or what?

Vlade didn't sign cuz or Rudy so not sure what your point was there. He inherited them.

That said, you're right about butler/Dujan/Anderson. Then again, they're just roster filler. Cheap too. But even as roster filler, they're brutally bad. Dujan doesn't even deserve a spot in the d league. Butler should retire. And Anderson should be back in Europe.

The option of tanking was out this summer. This season was playoffs or... There never was a plan B that I'm aware of.

An argument is ensuing about Butler/Dujan/Anderson? Well has Duke even played? I don't recall seeing him on the floor during any actual meaningful minutes in any game all season. Anderson has had some spot minutes as a designated defender. Seems like I recall Anderson being a request of Karl's camp. Butler is the designated "Old Man" in the locker room who unfortunately thinks he can still play so the trade promise was made. It takes another team to do that trade though.
 
Lol.

Why do you watch this team when you seem to hate everything about it top to bottom? Just like trolling actual fans or what?

Vlade didn't sign cuz or Rudy so not sure what your point was there. He inherited them.

That said, you're right about butler/Dujan/Anderson. Then again, they're just roster filler. Cheap too. But even as roster filler, they're brutally bad. Dujan doesn't even deserve a spot in the d league. Butler should retire. And Anderson should be back in Europe.

The option of tanking was out this summer. This season was playoffs or... There never was a plan B that I'm aware of.
So we went into a season with a core thats never sniffed 500. and had no plan B and even made it impossible via a silly trade in which we replaced trash for trash and took away our ability to tank. What kind of thinking is that, that's a low reward high risk type move.

I don't hate everything about the team since WCS/Acy/Casspi are on the team that's why I'm currently watching the team.
 
Didn't get to watch this game, but we gave up 46 points in the 1st quarter?!? That's crazy, even by Kings standards.

It always seems to be in the 1st quarter that the Kings have struggled lately.
 
Let's look at what we do have:

We have three players who are among the best in the league at their respective positions.
We have one of the best backup PGs in the league.
We have a 22 year old super-athlete at SG who shows a lot of potential as a shooter.
We have a 22 year old super-athletic 7 footer who can fly all over the floor on defense and deny dribble penetration on the perimeter.
We have several high-character bench players who have shown that they're willing to sacrifice for the good of the team.

This isn't a smoking crater of a roster, there's actually a lot to work with here. Maybe these guys have a ceiling limited by their defensive potential, but I don't think we're nearly as awful personnel-wise as we've shown. I agree with what Cousins said last night. It's more than just energy and effort. You give up 128 points in back-to-back games, there's a bigger problem than just effort. Nobody is that bad.

Here's my interpretation of what's going on defensively right now: We're playing a defensive scheme that is designed for undersized teams who need to overcompensate with speed what they lack in size. We have size. Speed is a problem for us. And yet we're running all over the court, switching assignments, collapsing into the paint even when a double-team isn't needed. If Avery Bradley takes a wide open three and the closest defender is DeMarcus Cousins a step inside the free throw line, you're putting the players in a situation where they cannot succeed. DeMarcus is not going to run 4 steps out on Bradley and then stop on a dime without fouling. That's not ever going to happen. The bigs can't step out to defend the three point line on every play. What good defensive teams do is they make the switch, deny the ball-handler a path to the basket or a quick shot, and then switch back. We're not switching back and it's just an open invitation for bigs to post up our PG or wings to take as many open threes as they want.

I'll agree that it doesn't look like this team is playing with a lot of pride right now. There's a point at which the coach is just a guy shouting at you from the sidelines and the responsibility is on the players to go out there and win games. But I also think the coach plays a big role in dictating the tempo of the game by choosing the starting lineup, when to sub in bench players and who to sub in, and keeping everyone on the same page as far as what their role is supposed to be. If you've got miscommunication or (even worse) animosity going on between the players and the coach then other teams who are all on the same page are going to eat you alive. That's what we've seen here. We're not playing terribly if you just look at our offensive execution. We're just playing mediocre. Guys are making big plays from time to time but there's also a fair amount of going through the motions. And when a well-coached cohesive team sees that? You better believe they're going to come at you twice as hard because they know you're going to break.

We're playing with no effort on defense. They don't give a ****. It's not scheme. They aren't moving their feet. They are glued in cement. They are WATCHING rather than defending. Anybody who looks at the first 5 minutes of the Boston game can see it before their very eyes. They aren't standing there refusing to take a couple of steps to guard a Celtic taking a shot because of scheme. That's absurd. I can have no respect whatsoever for any player who plays like that.
 
Wow. We're reduced to believing that a player has to be convinced to play hard. Please, please, PLEASE play hard. Please have respect for the game. Please move your feet just a little on defense. I would really appreciate it if you would just give a damn. Can you buy into that? If I were the owner, these guys would be gone soooo freaking fast it would make NBA history.
 
Wow. We're reduced to believing that a player has to be convinced to play hard. Please, please, PLEASE play hard. Please have respect for the game. Please move your feet just a little on defense. I would really appreciate it if you would just give a damn. Can you buy into that? If I were the owner, these guys would be gone soooo freaking fast it would make NBA history.
The thing with defense is that playing defense requires both trust and sacrifice (stats) and it is not only hard work, but a pace killer as well. So while we fans sit back eating nachos flummoxed that overpaid men are not hustling on defense and that is the obvious reason we are loosing, the truth is there is no point in working hard on defense if you cant trust the other guys to hold up their end. While one superstar can come out and wreck the other team all by himself, no one defender can stop pretty much anyone, the best they can do is force a pass. If the other guys are not working you get worked and tired for nothing. Every player on the team has to solidly agree to work together KNOWING that individually their stats will suffer but as a team they will have a much better chance of wining. So If my coach is pushing pace, and the team is not stressing defense why should I give up my scoring, or assist numbers by working an opponent? This is especially true if I can't trust my teammates to defend once the pass is made. I might as well just look for shots and open guys and try to outscore the other team. This is exactly why we call uber-high scoring games junk basketball, not because of all of the dunks and made 3 point shots, by INDIVIDUAL players but because of selfish nature of a bunch of guys who playing for their numbers on the offensive end and unwilling to work the other end for the TEAM.

Sadly few guys take anywhere as much personal pride in shutting guys down than they do in lighting them up, I wish more players had Bobby J's mature perspective but young players do not, they have to be taught it, and that job falls upon the coach their staff and veteran players. If it was just a matter of using the defensive skills these guys have developed over the years despite coaching, trust and practice and just playing with a sense of pride, the All-Star game would be a meat grinder as personal pride and a deep bench meant the biggest egos in the league would be competing to shut each other down.
 
Wow. We're reduced to believing that a player has to be convinced to play hard. Please, please, PLEASE play hard. Please have respect for the game. Please move your feet just a little on defense. I would really appreciate it if you would just give a damn. Can you buy into that? If I were the owner, these guys would be gone soooo freaking fast it would make NBA history.

The above logic is like assembling orchestra of top performers and tell them just to play hard and it will be a beautiful symphony.
Nothing to do with conductor, just play hard.....
 
The thing with defense is that playing defense requires both trust and sacrifice (stats) and it is not only hard work, but a pace killer as well. So while we fans sit back eating nachos flummoxed that overpaid men are not hustling on defense and that is the obvious reason we are loosing, the truth is there is no point in working hard on defense if you cant trust the other guys to hold up their end. While one superstar can come out and wreck the other team all by himself, no one defender can stop pretty much anyone, the best they can do is force a pass. If the other guys are not working you get worked and tired for nothing. Every player on the team has to solidly agree to work together KNOWING that individually their stats will suffer but as a team they will have a much better chance of wining. So If my coach is pushing pace, and the team is not stressing defense why should I give up my scoring, or assist numbers by working an opponent? This is especially true if I can't trust my teammates to defend once the pass is made. I might as well just look for shots and open guys and try to outscore the other team. This is exactly why we call uber-high scoring games junk basketball, not because of all of the dunks and made 3 point shots, by INDIVIDUAL players but because of selfish nature of a bunch of guys who playing for their numbers on the offensive end and unwilling to work the other end for the TEAM.

Sadly few guys take anywhere as much personal pride in shutting guys down than they do in lighting them up, I wish more players had Bobby J's mature perspective but young players do not, they have to be taught it, and that job falls upon the coach their staff and veteran players. If it was just a matter of using the defensive skills these guys have developed over the years despite coaching, trust and practice and just playing with a sense of pride, the All-Star game would be a meat grinder as personal pride and a deep bench meant the biggest egos in the league would be competing to shut each other down.

Remember when this organization talked about the importance of culture? I'd like Vivek to be asked how the culture thing is going. Part of culture is establishing the ethic of "work" and of personal accountability and pride. This organization has totally failed in the culture department. There must be severe consequences for this bull**** to turn around this organization, and I don't mean just firing the coach. You know what totally gets my blood boiling? The easy cop-out it would be in firing Karl. The players would be mere spectators, the innocent bystanders of the bull**** that they have participated in, What kind of cultural message does that send? It sends the message that it's never your fault, it's always somebody else, and if you don't like the coach, screw it, just stop playing the game.

Precedents matter. The weakness of the Kings continues to perpetuate itself. The owner changes; the coaches change; the GM changes; and the incredible weakness of this organization continues to perpetuate itself, as if it has a life of itself. Somebody in this organization, whether Vlade or Vivek, better grown a backbone or you will see this bull**** continue forever.
 
Remember when this organization talked about the importance of culture? I'd like Vivek to be asked how the culture thing is going. Part of culture is establishing the ethic of "work" and of personal accountability and pride. This organization has totally failed in the culture department. There must be severe consequences for this bull**** to turn around this organization, and I don't mean just firing the coach. You know what totally gets my blood boiling? The easy cop-out it would be in firing Karl. The players would be mere spectators, the innocent bystanders of the bull**** that they have participated in, What kind of cultural message does that send? It sends the message that it's never your fault, it's always somebody else, and if you don't like the coach, screw it, just stop playing the game.

Precedents matter. The weakness of the Kings continues to perpetuate itself. The owner changes; the coaches change; the GM changes; and the incredible weakness of this organization continues to perpetuate itself, as if it has a life of itself. Somebody in this organization, whether Vlade or Vivek, better grown a backbone or you will see this bull**** continue forever.
If you want to change culture you don't start at the bottom, you start at the top. Maybe the Vlade hires was not the rightmove,but I think it was just a good start, the problem IS the last hold out of the old regime, Karl who was a PDA hire. Let Vlade bring in HIS guy and then see what THEY do. If that guy is Tibbs I can not imagine the team attitude and defensive effort NOT changing.
 
Remember when this organization talked about the importance of culture? I'd like Vivek to be asked how the culture thing is going. Part of culture is establishing the ethic of "work" and of personal accountability and pride. This organization has totally failed in the culture department. There must be severe consequences for this bull**** to turn around this organization, and I don't mean just firing the coach. You know what totally gets my blood boiling? The easy cop-out it would be in firing Karl. The players would be mere spectators, the innocent bystanders of the bull**** that they have participated in, What kind of cultural message does that send? It sends the message that it's never your fault, it's always somebody else, and if you don't like the coach, screw it, just stop playing the game.

Precedents matter. The weakness of the Kings continues to perpetuate itself. The owner changes; the coaches change; the GM changes; and the incredible weakness of this organization continues to perpetuate itself, as if it has a life of itself. Somebody in this organization, whether Vlade or Vivek, better grown a backbone or you will see this bull**** continue forever.

This is a fair point. I would posit that the culture began to change from good to bad when PDA, Mullin, and Vivek stopped communicating openly with Mike Malone and started marginalizing him in the decision-making process. I don't know when exactly that happened since it was mostly behind the scenes until it exploded at the end of last year. The immediate fallout of the Mike Malone firing was a lack of trust between management and players. That developed into a full-on revolt with the players refusing to show effort on the court (sound familiar?) and management promoting Tyrone Corbin from interim coach to full-time coach without consulting the players. This was particularly insulting because the only public defense given for firing Mike Malone at the time is that he was a great coach for a young team but they were moving on to bigger and better things. After that we got a lot of finger pointing as everyone in the front office tried to make it look like it was someone else's mistake.

So you're right, the precedent was set by our own front office. By instigating the player revolt in the first place and then failing to address it properly they've left the door open for the team to continue quitting on coaches who they don't believe in. Vivek at least did one thing right by clearing out PDA and Mullin, but he did it in the wrong way -- allowing them to slink out quietly with no accountability for their role in fracturing the team. Hiring George Karl mid-season last year (after Vlade was brought in but before he was given the GM title) was another huge mistake. He had no time to establish his own system and instead had to bridge two different front offices and try to pick up the pieces of a team culture that was already pre-disposed to dislike whoever management picked as their chosen coach -- i.e. the guy they fired Malone to get.

We can't undo the past though. The catalog of misery inflicted on this franchise and us fans by previous ownership is extensive but that's in the past as well. All we can do from this point on is start to rebuild the right way. There has to be open communication between front office, coaching staff, and players. All parties need to agree together to stop using the media as their platform to snipe at each other. The good news though, if there is any, (and this is maybe getting a little too pseudo-psychological) is that the front office got sufficiently humbled by picking their preferred coach and seeing him fail and the players got to feel vindicated by doing what the offensive genius coach wanted (and you can't say they didn't give it a try for a long while there) and failing to win that way. Maybe that puts an end to the childishness? Maybe both sides got to make their point and they're ready to start fresh now with a new direction they both agree on?
 
I wonder how much of this is Boogie and how much other guys? Article here
It has been pretty obvious that Karl has been completely ineffective and furthermore, his coaching this season has been pathetic. It might be more prudent to ask who hasn't he lost?
 
If you want to change culture you don't start at the bottom, you start at the top. Maybe the Vlade hires was not the rightmove,but I think it was just a good start, the problem IS the last hold out of the old regime, Karl who was a PDA hire. Let Vlade bring in HIS guy and then see what THEY do. If that guy is Tibbs I can not imagine the team attitude and defensive effort NOT changing.

Wasn't I referring to Vivek and Vlade? I think I was. The culture is not determined by the players; it is determined by ownership and the GM. Apparently, when you become an owner or a GM of this team it's with certain conditions, among which is to volunteer for castration.
 
I'm not talking about making a conscious effort to not try. Someone who can blindly put max effort into something that doesn't work is about as bright as a box of rocks.
What can we verify our winning streak to then? Pure Luck? What has changed inbetween then and now?
 
Wasn't I referring to Vivek and Vlade? I think I was. The culture is not determined by the players; it is determined by ownership and the GM. Apparently, when you become an owner or a GM of this team it's with certain conditions, among which is to volunteer for castration.
Yes you were, and my point is that Vlade IS the change in culture that Vivek made. One of the big gambles Vlade made this off season was banking on stability and trusting in Karl's record,rather than removing him to bring in a coach of his choosing. I understood this call but questioned it and with 20/20 hindsight the gamble did not payoff, but before we get the tar and feathers out for Vlade let's at least wait and see what he does here and how it works out before we start demanding that we trade players to solve our problems.
 
This is a fair point. I would posit that the culture began to change from good to bad when PDA, Mullin, and Vivek stopped communicating openly with Mike Malone and started marginalizing him in the decision-making process. I don't know when exactly that happened since it was mostly behind the scenes until it exploded at the end of last year. The immediate fallout of the Mike Malone firing was a lack of trust between management and players. That developed into a full-on revolt with the players refusing to show effort on the court (sound familiar?) and management promoting Tyrone Corbin from interim coach to full-time coach without consulting the players. This was particularly insulting because the only public defense given for firing Mike Malone at the time is that he was a great coach for a young team but they were moving on to bigger and better things. After that we got a lot of finger pointing as everyone in the front office tried to make it look like it was someone else's mistake.

So you're right, the precedent was set by our own front office. By instigating the player revolt in the first place and then failing to address it properly they've left the door open for the team to continue quitting on coaches who they don't believe in. Vivek at least did one thing right by clearing out PDA and Mullin, but he did it in the wrong way -- allowing them to slink out quietly with no accountability for their role in fracturing the team.
You are easily one of the only people on this board that has his finger on what actually has happened with this team.

Seriously - most people make it clear they have no clue about these aspects of the franchise, and how they continue to affect the players.

This year, just like last year, has been a blatant attempt by the players to rub the FO's and coaches noses in the crap they continue to pull.
The entire concept of PACEPACEPACE, over fundamental defensive basketball, is a non-starter with the core players of the team, and they will not play as hard as they can until the FO backs off from disrespecting them and not communicating with them like the elite athletes they are.
 
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