Kings 2009-2010 NBA Draft:

[hammystyle]

I disagree. I know a lot of people hate Kobe with a passion here, but he's not as bad as LeBron. Kobe just isn't as ostentatious as LeBron is. LeBron is constantly congratulating himself on his stats, that he won MVP, and that he's such a "team player" (even though he isn't) just because he picks up assists. He's always calling attention to himself and he gets visibly jealous when someone else gets attention instead of him. Maybe it's unfair to compare them at different stages in their career, but that's really the more relevant comparison since we're talking about them possibly playing together.

Despite all the problems he and Shaq had, Kobe did play with him and won 3 championships with him, and there aren't any players in the history of the NBA that can challenge Shaq's title of the biggest ego IMO.

I'm really arguing more against LeBron than for Kobe, just to be clear. Kobe definitely has a big ego, but he's not nearly as much of a whiney baby as LeBron and Shaq types are. Maybe the issue is more one of maturity rather than ego.

This is perhaps the most wrong thing I've ever read. LeBron is not only a great team player, but perhaps the best team player in the league. He spends all game long getting his teammates going in the best way for them to succeed, then only takes over when needed. He's the best teammate on the league and has a chance to be one of the greatest superstar teammates of all time. He really bonds with and boosts his teammates in a special way. Is there any evidence they don't totally love him?

When has he ever whined?

I do notice he congratulates himself on how great he is, but quite frankly, he's only stating the obvious. Its like Shaq saying he's bigger than everyone.

 

[bajaden]

I was just reading the tweets on draftexpress. Most of them by NBA scouts. The majority of them have Udoh ranked ahead of Aldrich, Monroe and Davis. They say his only weakness is his defensive rebounding, which some say is because Baylor plays a zone and in many cases he's away from the basket. I kind of agree with this, because Baylor plays a 2/3 zone which usually has Udoh out defending the low right wing. I would bet that most of his defensive rebounds come when Lomers is out of the game and he shifts to the center position.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I was just reading the tweets on draftexpress. Most of them by NBA scouts. The majority of them have Udoh ranked ahead of Aldrich, Monroe and Davis. They say his only weakness is his defensive rebounding, which some say is because Baylor plays a zone and in many cases he's away from the basket. I kind of agree with this, because Baylor plays a 2/3 zone which usually has Udoh out defending the low right wing. I would bet that most of his defensive rebounds come when Lomers is out of the game and he shifts to the center position.

From what I've seen from Udoh I'd have to agree with them. Defensive rebounding seems to be somewhat of a weakness, but there's no reason to think he can't improve since he's got all the tools to be a good rebounder. My concern with him is whether he can be a go-to scorer.

 

[bajaden]

My concern with him is whether he can be a go-to scorer.

Well I'm not going to sit here and tell you he can. Truth is I don't know. He was never the focus of the offense at Baylor. Tweety Carter and LaDarius Dunn were. But there were games when those two couldn't get anything going and he would just jump up and score 20 or 25 points.

He averaged 10.8 FGA's per game for the year. and 13 PPG. But just about every time he took somewhere between 14 and 16 shots, he averaged between 18 and 25 points a game. I know I'm not exactly answering your question. But I think he's someone that you could put on the floor and he would have to be guarded, and maybe doubleteamed. I don't think he would ever be a first option, but maybe a second option. I know that he's certainly not afraid to take a shot with the game on the line.

 

[roasthawg]

I was just reading the tweets on draftexpress. Most of them by NBA scouts. The majority of them have Udoh ranked ahead of Aldrich, Monroe and Davis. They say his only weakness is his defensive rebounding, which some say is because Baylor plays a zone and in many cases he's away from the basket. I kind of agree with this, because Baylor plays a 2/3 zone which usually has Udoh out defending the low right wing. I would bet that most of his defensive rebounds come when Lomers is out of the game and he shifts to the center position.

I would be pretty upset if we took Udoh ahead of Aldrich.

 

[bajaden]

I would be pretty upset if we took Udoh ahead of Aldrich.

I like both players and would be happy with either of them. I think you'll get more offense out of Udoh than you will Aldrich. Both are defensive players with Udoh being the better shotblocker. But I'm nit picking there. One is a center and the other is a PF. Which ever one the Kings would choose would determine the long term fate of JT. If they were to pick Udoh, then that means they're looking at JT as a center. If they pick Aldrich, then the reverse is true.

If you go and look at JT's averages for the year and break them down between the center and PF position, his scoring averages and points both go up while playing center. His rebounding numbers are slightly better while playing center. So it wouldn't shock me to see them go for Udoh over Aldrich. Or Favors over Aldrich.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

So it wouldn't shock me to see them go for Udoh over Aldrich. Or Favors over Aldrich.

If we're not in the top three, and Favors is available at our pick, and we don't take him, I will fall to my knees in shock in front of the TV. To be fair, I did that exact thing last year when we didn't take Rubio so that's clearly not an infallible predictor that we actually made a mistake. Still, that sequence of events would probably make it happen again.

 

[bajaden]

If we're not in the top three, and Favors is available at our pick, and we don't take him, I will fall to my knees in shock in front of the TV. To be fair, I did that exact thing last year when we didn't take Rubio so that's clearly not an infallible predictor that we actually made a mistake. Still, that sequence of events would probably make it happen again.

Ha ha, yeah, I agree with you. I was just trying to keep it in the center vrs Power Forward conversation. If we were lucky enough to get the third spot, the conversation would be about whether to take Cousins or Favors. Now that would be a nice problem to have.

 

[Chupacabra]

I would be pretty upset if we took Udoh ahead of Aldrich.

Please explain why.

The thing about this bigman draft is that i wouldnt want to take an inferior big over a superior one because of positional need. Good bigmen are so rare these days that I think its in a teams best interest to take the best one available. I would CERTAINLY say that Udoh is a better player than Aldrich.

 

[est.1999]

Take the best big available. Regardless of position or our needs. The whole frontcourt needs an upgrade anyways.

 

[Vlade4GM]

As far as I'm concerned, everyone in our frontcourt is expendable. I wouldn't miss any single one of them. I say take who we think will end up being the best player. I have to go with Udoh over Aldrich because he has much better two way potential.

 

[roasthawg]

Please explain why.

The thing about this bigman draft is that i wouldnt want to take an inferior big over a superior one because of positional need. Good bigmen are so rare these days that I think its in a teams best interest to take the best one available. I would CERTAINLY say that Udoh is a better player than Aldrich.

Because Aldrich is better in pretty much every facet of the game as far as I can tell. Rebounding per 40 Aldrich has gone for 14+ all three years he's been in college. Udoh has gone 7, 7, 11. We need a big that can clear the boards and Aldrich is clearly the better rebounder... this is BIG for me.

They are similar per 40 when it comes to blocking shots but Aldrich is still slightly ahead this year at 5 to Udoh's 4.2.

Scoring wise Aldrich comes out ahead per 40 yet again at 16.2 to 15.8. Last year Aldrich was all the way up to 19 per 40 so he can score. He's also a more efficient scorer than Udoh. Overall I just think he's an all around better prospect than Udoh is.

 

[est.1999]

Per 40, per 40, per 40. I'm so sick and tired of hearing about per 40. It's like people don't even care about watching these players play anymore.

 

[Chupacabra]

Because Aldrich is better in pretty much every facet of the game as far as I can tell. Rebounding per 40 Aldrich has gone for 14+ all three years he's been in college. Udoh has gone 7, 7, 11. We need a big that can clear the boards and Aldrich is clearly the better rebounder... this is BIG for me.

They are similar per 40 when it comes to blocking shots but Aldrich is still slightly ahead this year at 5 to Udoh's 4.2.

Scoring wise Aldrich comes out ahead per 40 yet again at 16.2 to 15.8. Last year Aldrich was all the way up to 19 per 40 so he can score. He's also a more efficient scorer than Udoh. Overall I just think he's an all around better prospect than Udoh is.

While im impressed that you have statistical knowledge to back your opinion up, I dont understand how one could watch both players play and come out with the assessment that Aldrich is better than Udoh. You and I disagree.

 

[Kingster]

I like both players and would be happy with either of them. I think you'll get more offense out of Udoh than you will Aldrich. Both are defensive players with Udoh being the better shotblocker. But I'm nit picking there. One is a center and the other is a PF. Which ever one the Kings would choose would determine the long term fate of JT. If they were to pick Udoh, then that means they're looking at JT as a center. If they pick Aldrich, then the reverse is true.

If you go and look at JT's averages for the year and break them down between the center and PF position, his scoring averages and points both go up while playing center. His rebounding numbers are slightly better while playing center. So it wouldn't shock me to see them go for Udoh over Aldrich. Or Favors over Aldrich.

...or maybe Monroe over Aldrich (uggh. a choice between two evils. yuck).

 

[hammystyle]

Per 40, per 40, per 40. I'm so sick and tired of hearing about per 40. It's like people don't even care about watching these players play anymore.

You're in the draft discussion section. Good players on deep teams don't play heavy minutes, so comparing stats per 40 minute is a useful tool.

 

[est.1999]

I'm talking about basketball in general

 

[=LarryLegend=]

After we draft Greg Monroe I think Kings will move Thompson in a trade.

 

[bajaden]

You're in the draft discussion section. Good players on deep teams don't play heavy minutes, so comparing stats per 40 minute is a useful tool.

I'm not saying that per 40's in college or per 48 stats in the pro's don't have their place, but there are a lot of assumptions made off those stats that many times defy logic. First of all, your assuming that all players are machines and not human beings. Your assuming that they all play in the exact same system. A giant flaw when it comes to college basketball. Your assuming that every player is endowed with the exact same amount of stamina, mental strength, killer instinct and will to win, etc.

You can find players on NBA rosters that have been career backups and averaged 7 to 12 minutes a game for their careers. Yet when you apply the per 48 stat, some of them will look like potential stars. So there must be a reason why they only average 8 to 12 minutes a game.

If all you needed was a per 40 stat report to judge a college player, then the NBA wouldn't need to have scouting dept's or have the players come in for workouts. And I would never, ever use it as a way of trying to prove one player is better than another coming out of college.

Do you think that Derrick Favors per 40 scoring stats might have been improved if he had been playing for Kentucky and had John Wall feeding him the ball. Do you think that Udoh's defensive rebounding numbers would have been better if Baylor hadn't been playing a 2/3 zone, which put him out on the low right wing most of the time and away from the basket on defense. On the other hand Aldrich played right under the basket. Wouldn't one think that his defensive rebounding numbers might be better because of it.

Over the course of the 14 games I watched Baylor play, I saw on several occasions where Udoh just took over the game and willed his team to a win. It didn't happen that many times because he wasn't the focus of the offense. But when the chips were down and no one else on his team could score, he got the job done. I never once during the year in all the games I watched Kansas, and I basicly lost count of how many times, saw Aldrich take over a game. This isn't a knock on Aldrich. I like Aldrich and would love to have him. I've said from the get go that he's a very good defensive center that can rebound the ball well and score you 10 to 12 points by accident. Thats a pretty valuable commodity in the NBA.

Udoh on the other hand is a player that I think has much more offensive potential. Its really apples and oranges. One's a center and the other is a PF. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Udoh is a superior passer to Aldrich, but he is a more creative passer. By that I mean, he doesn't just pass out of the double team, but is able to create plays for his teammates. If you were to ask me which player had the higher ceiling, my gut tells me Udoh. But with big men like Aldrich its hard to know. Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 years to really know what you have

 

[hammystyle]

Well I'm not going to sit here and tell you he can. Truth is I don't know. He was never the focus of the offense at Baylor. Tweety Carter and LaDarius Dunn were. But there were games when those two couldn't get anything going and he would just jump up and score 20 or 25 points.

He averaged 10.8 FGA's per game for the year. and 13 PPG. But just about every time he took somewhere between 14 and 16 shots, he averaged between 18 and 25 points a game. I know I'm not exactly answering your question. But I think he's someone that you could put on the floor and he would have to be guarded, and maybe doubleteamed. I don't think he would ever be a first option, but maybe a second option. I know that he's certainly not afraid to take a shot with the game on the line.

If he's not even the first or second option on a college team without other 1st round prospects do you really think he can be that in the NBA? Plus as a third option and an NBA prospect he was not an efficient scorer. 49% for an athletic big man in college is pretty bad considering the physical advantages he had.

Consider the rest of the possible lotto: Favors (61%), Davis (58%), Cousins (56%), Aldrich (55%), Monroe (53%), Whiteside (52%). Plus, all those guys scored at a higher rate per minute. So they scored more, and did so more efficiently. Even the late first guys like Alabi (53%), Varnado (58%), Sanders (53%) scored more effieciently and at a higher rate. So based purely off numbers, Udoh is last in class in scoring.

 

[ParniValjak]

After we draft Greg Monroe I think Kings will move Thompson in a trade.

Didn't Monroe already say that he is returning to college?!

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Didn't Monroe already say that he is returning to college?!

In the past, when a guy has said he's returning to college immediately after losing in the NCAA tournament, that statement has been notoriously unreliable.

On top of that, the threat of an impending lockout may make this a very rich draft as guys look to get paid this year, rather than risk going in the draft next year, getting selected, then sitting at home while the league is on hiatus. For free. I don't believe there are going to be a lot of lottery-level players going back to school this year.

 

[cstorm]

In the past, when a guy has said he's returning to college immediately after losing in the NCAA tournament, that statement has been notoriously unreliable.

On top of that, the threat of an impending lockout may make this a very rich draft as guys look to get paid this year, rather than risk going in the draft next year, getting selected, then sitting at home while the league is on hiatus. For free. I don't believe there are going to be a lot of lottery-level players going back to school this year.

Very good point. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[=LarryLegend=]

Didn't Monroe already say that he is returning to college?!

they always say that, how bad would it look if he was like I'm going in the draft. right after his team lost. plus he is a lotto pick what if he gets hurt and the CBA screws him.

 

[Kingstime]

Why take Monroe even if hes there? Outside of his height he doesn't help us, he doesn't block shots and he doesn't really grab rebounds. Once we get to draft night and by our positioning if Cousins or Alrdrich is off the boards I hope we take the BPA instead of Monroe.

 

[bajaden]

If he's not even the first or second option on a college team without other 1st round prospects do you really think he can be that in the NBA? Plus as a third option and an NBA prospect he was not an efficient scorer. 49% for an athletic big man in college is pretty bad considering the physical advantages he had.

Consider the rest of the possible lotto: Favors (61%), Davis (58%), Cousins (56%), Aldrich (55%), Monroe (53%), Whiteside (52%). Plus, all those guys scored at a higher rate per minute. So they scored more, and did so more efficiently. Even the late first guys like Alabi (53%), Varnado (58%), Sanders (53%) scored more effieciently and at a higher rate. So based purely off numbers, Udoh is last in class in scoring.

Look, I'm not going to convince you, thats obvious. I already told you that I'm not that much into stats and that I go by what I see. Your a stat guy and thats fine. But stats can be used in a lot of different ways to lead the outcome a person might want. To just list stats, and not the circumstances under which they were aquired, renders them somewhat meaningless. Chris Bosh's field goal percentage is 49.1%, while Boozer's is 54.4%. Does that make Boozer a much better player than Bosh?

In the right system, maybe yes. But in the right system Bosh might be the better player. The truth is that they're both totaly different types of players. Boozer plays predominately under the basket, thus his higher shooting percentage. Bosh plays under the basket but also away from the basket. Which make him the more versitat of the two, but it also drops his field goal percentage because jumpshots usually have a lower percentage than shots right at the basket.

The same is true with Udoh. His game is more like that of Bosh or Garnett, where he can play under the basket, but he also shoots jumpers, which have a lower percentage. Almost all the players you listed play under the basket. Aldrich and Varando might take an occasional jumper, but its hardly their mainstay. If you've seen Sanders play, and you'd take him over Udoh, then I just don't know what to say. By the way, I'm not saying that Udoh = Bosh or Garnett. Just their style of play.

As far as being the first or second option on a team. Michael Jordan wasn't the first option on his team at North Carolina. Which option was Favors at G. Tech? The third, fourth, or just an afterthought? Whichever it was, its wasn't his fault. He was stuck in a system that didn't use his talent properly.

If you had watched Kevin Johnson play at Cal, you would have thought he was just a halfcourt PG. But if you watched enough games you would see him rebel on occasion and show his real ability. It ususally got him in trouble, but anyone that saw him, knew that there was more there than we were being allowed to see, because of the system.

Baylor is a guard oriented team. And no one can deny that LaDarius Dunn is a great scorer. I have no doubt that if he were to declare for the draft he would certainly be drafted. Tweety Carter is a pretty talented PG. Being around 5'7" in height doesn't help, and is always an uphill battle for these types of PG's. Udoh is the best defender on the Baylor team and thats how the coaching staff decided to primarily use him.

Here's an interesting article on Udoh and a little of his background.

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/ncb/columns/story?columnist=caplan_jeff&id=4867681

 

[LPKingsFan]

Wow, 7-5 wingspan? I'm intrigued.

 

[hammystyle]

Look, I'm not going to convince you, thats obvious. I already told you that I'm not that much into stats and that I go by what I see. Your a stat guy and thats fine. But stats can be used in a lot of different ways to lead the outcome a person might want. To just list stats, and not the circumstances under which they were aquired, renders them somewhat meaningless. Chris Bosh's field goal percentage is 49.1%, while Boozer's is 54.4%. Does that make Boozer a much better player than Bosh?

In the right system, maybe yes. But in the right system Bosh might be the better player. The truth is that they're both totaly different types of players. Boozer plays predominately under the basket, thus his higher shooting percentage. Bosh plays under the basket but also away from the basket. Which make him the more versitat of the two, but it also drops his field goal percentage because jumpshots usually have a lower percentage than shots right at the basket.

The same is true with Udoh. His game is more like that of Bosh or Garnett, where he can play under the basket, but he also shoots jumpers, which have a lower percentage. Almost all the players you listed play under the basket. Aldrich and Varando might take an occasional jumper, but its hardly their mainstay. If you've seen Sanders play, and you'd take him over Udoh, then I just don't know what to say. By the way, I'm not saying that Udoh = Bosh or Garnett. Just their style of play.

As far as being the first or second option on a team. Michael Jordan wasn't the first option on his team at North Carolina. Which option was Favors at G. Tech? The third, fourth, or just an afterthought? Whichever it was, its wasn't his fault. He was stuck in a system that didn't use his talent properly.

If you had watched Kevin Johnson play at Cal, you would have thought he was just a halfcourt PG. But if you watched enough games you would see him rebel on occasion and show his real ability. It ususally got him in trouble, but anyone that saw him, knew that there was more there than we were being allowed to see, because of the system.

Baylor is a guard oriented team. And no one can deny that LaDarius Dunn is a great scorer. I have no doubt that if he were to declare for the draft he would certainly be drafted. Tweety Carter is a pretty talented PG. Being around 5'7" in height doesn't help, and is always an uphill battle for these types of PG's. Udoh is the best defender on the Baylor team and thats how the coaching staff decided to primarily use him.

Here's an interesting article on Udoh and a little of his background.

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/ncb/columns/story?columnist=caplan_jeff&id=4867681

I don't want Sanders over Ekpe, but every other single first round post prospect shoots 52% or better, most in the mid to high 50's. Udoh shoots 49%. That's a glaring difference. Bosh shoots 49% now, but he shot 56% in college. Being on a guard oriented team, if anything Udoh should shoot a higher percentage off assisted dunks and offensive rebounds. Settling for jumpers in college is not a point in his favor, that's a negative.

That's my point, that shooting percentage is a pretty glaring red flag that's getting glossed over because there's so much else nice about his game. I like him a lot, but think that as an older prospect Monroe, Aldrich, even Davis and Whiteside all are likely to be better NBA players. I'd already read that article, and his business like attitude and basketball IQ are certainly very appealing.

BTW - I am a stat guy but I don't search for stats to prove my point. I didn't go out looking for holes in Udoh's game, they were right there in front of me and I brought them up.

I'm pretty sure Jordan led UNC in scoring his soph and junior years.

 

[kennadog]

Thanks for the article on Udoh, Bajaden. It was very interesting. He sounds like a great kid who is not afraid to work really hard.

 

[roasthawg]

If he's not even the first or second option on a college team without other 1st round prospects do you really think he can be that in the NBA? Plus as a third option and an NBA prospect he was not an efficient scorer. 49% for an athletic big man in college is pretty bad considering the physical advantages he had.

Consider the rest of the possible lotto: Favors (61%), Davis (58%), Cousins (56%), Aldrich (55%), Monroe (53%), Whiteside (52%). Plus, all those guys scored at a higher rate per minute. So they scored more, and did so more efficiently. Even the late first guys like Alabi (53%), Varnado (58%), Sanders (53%) scored more effieciently and at a higher rate. So based purely off numbers, Udoh is last in class in scoring.

I agree... he's not very good offensively and not a great rebounder. I'll pass... Cousins is the ideal pick and Aldrich is the consolation prize.