Kings 2009-2010 NBA Draft:

[Vlade4GM]

I'm not going to tell you your wrong. There is a gamble with Cousins. I can only judge players by how they play. I would guess that I've seen Cousins close to 15 times, maybe 16 times this year. I've seen Favors a little less. If your looking for impact on a game Cousins wins in a landslide. But Favors is the second banana on his team as far as bigs go. The guard play on his team is not very good. So it makes it hard to get a good feel for what he can.

Is he a better athlete than Cousins. For sure. Is he a better overall player than Cousins right now. I would say no. Cousins is a better rebounder and a better low post scorer. Favors is a better defensive player. My problem with Favors is he seldom impacts the game. Cousins does. I know thats simplistic, but none the less, its meaningful when I'm looking at players. Its possible that Favors is simply a victim of his inviorment. And its possible that Favors will be the better player down the road. Those are questions I can't answer. Bottom line, I'll take either one of them if it comes down to it. But I'll take Wall or Turner over both of them.. Hey, I can dream.

I'd rather bet on Favors improving his offensive game and aggressiveness than Cousins improving his attitude. Favors is raw, but I think he has the makeup to improve his game. Watching Callipari constantly having to yell at Cousins, just makes you think. Cousins may very well end up being the better player, but do you really want to have to baby him every step of the way in order to get him to achieve his potential? Favors is a very good athlete, plays defense, is aggressive on boards, and is much more coachable.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Cousins is playing great right now against Vandy.

 

[bajaden]

I'd rather bet on Favors improving his offensive game and aggressiveness than Cousins improving his attitude. Favors is raw, but I think he has the makeup to improve his game. Watching Callipari constantly having to yell at Cousins, just makes you think. Cousins may very well end up being the better player, but do you really want to have to baby him every step of the way in order to get him to achieve his potential? Favors is a very good athlete, plays defense, is aggressive on boards, and is much more coachable.

No, I wouldn't want to baby him every step of the way. Of course not. But lets not forget were talking about a 18 year old kid here. I'm certainly not going to brand him defective for life because he's immature right now. This is his first real exposure to the real world. Up until now he's been catered to and babied. Could he turn out to be a tempermental problem child for a long time? Sure! Its also just as possible that he learns while he's there. He has improved with controling his temper as the year has gone on. Lets face it, Rasheed Wallace has been a problem child for his entire career. He's better now, but he's still no angel. But he's also one hell of a basketball player. If, and its a big if, Cousins is capable of turning into a 25 and 12 player, that plays decent defense, then I could learn to put up with some problems.

 

[bajaden]

Cousins is playing great right now against Vandy.

Right now Cousins is the best big man in the draft. If you get a shot at him and pass, then your crazy.

 

[Vlade4GM]

No, I wouldn't want to baby him every step of the way. Of course not. But lets not forget were talking about a 18 year old kid here. I'm certainly not going to brand him defective for life because he's immature right now. This is his first real exposure to the real world. Up until now he's been catered to and babied. Could he turn out to be a tempermental problem child for a long time? Sure! Its also just as possible that he learns while he's there. He has improved with controling his temper as the year has gone on. Lets face it, Rasheed Wallace has been a problem child for his entire career. He's better now, but he's still no angel. But he's also one hell of a basketball player. If, and its a big if, Cousins is capable of turning into a 25 and 12 player, that plays decent defense, then I could learn to put up with some problems.

Hate to quibble but I think 25 ppg is a little too hopeful for a guy who's probably 6'11 max and plays below the rim. 20 ppg is probably around his ceiling. That's no small amount, but 25 ppg is around Olajuwon territory for a center.

I understand what you're saying about him being only 19 (he'll be 20 by 10-11 season) but I'm afraid what we're seeing from him now is the only sample we're going to be able to work from, and therefore there's going to be a guessing game whether it's enough to judge him properly or not. However, I totally take him without hesitation if Turner and Favors are off the board.

 

[bajaden]

Hate to quibble but I think 25 ppg is a little too hopeful for a guy who's probably 6'11 max and plays below the rim. 20 ppg is probably around his ceiling. That's no small amount, but 25 ppg is around Olajuwon territory for a center.

I understand what you're saying about him being only 19 (he'll be 20 by 11-12 season) but I'm afraid what we're seeing from him now is the only sample we're going to be able to work from, and therefore there's going to be a guessing game whether it's enough to judge him properly or not. However, I totally take him without hesitation if Turner and Favors are off the board.

I may have aimed a little high with the 25 pt's per. But one never knows. As far as playing below the rim, I think its where you project him to play as far as how it affects him. If you see him as a PF (which I don't), then yes I see that as a draw back. But as a center, I don't see that many centers around the league that have serious hops. His lateral movement gives me pause at times, but other times he appears to have quick feet. So I'll wait till the combine results before passing judgement. But I do suspect I'm right about it.

Here's where I'am with the Cousins/Favors thing. First off, I'd be happy with either one of them. However, the Kings need help at center, and I see Cousins as a center and I don't see Favors as a center. Secondly, I tend to lean toward results as opposed to potential. Anyone thats watched both players play a lot this year can't deny that Cousins results exceed Favors results. Yeah, I know that maybe if you switched places then maybe Favors would be the one with the results. Unfortunately I can't do that. So I have to live with what I see and not what I hope to see in the future.

Now if I have to choose between Favors and Davis. Thats a no contest. I have been underwhelmed by Davis and frankly don't see whay everyone else see's. I'd take Monroe in a heartbeat over Davis. Once again, results. Regardless of how Monroe played last year, he's played much better this year. And you have to give credit for improvement.

This much I know. If we end up with a top five pick, were going to get a pretty good player. Maybe a great player.

 

[hammystyle]

^^^
I'd take Favors (pending solid measurements). I'll continue to belabor the point, but he's a young freshman. He's a year younger than Cousins. That counts for a lot.

I like Cousins a lot, and this is just splitting hairs between the #3 guy and the #4 guy. But weight and attitude concerns are a pretty dangerous combo. Favors production concerns are lessened for me because I think if Favors magically transferred to Kentucky next year (when he'd be the same age as Cousins now) and got to play with the top PG in the country, he'd blow the doors off what he's doing right now statistically. I'd rather take the chance on that projection, then "hope" Cousins can keep his act and weight together for the next 5-15 years.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I'd take Cousin over Favors, all things considered. Hammystyle makes a good point, you put Favors on Kentucky with Wall and Cousins on GT were he would have to share touches with Lawal, there production would be different.

I liked Cousin better anyway, but the Landry trade sealed the deal for me. Favors strikes me as a PF, Cousins as a C. If I go into the draft looking at these two guys, both at about the same talent level, Im taking the guy who fits with this team best, and in my opinion thats Cousins. We have two power forwards under contract for next season, both are young and have potential. We only have one center.

 

[NME]

I liked Cousin better anyway, but the Landry trade sealed the deal for me. Favors strikes me as a PF, Cousins as a C. If I go into the draft looking at these two guys, both at about the same talent level, Im taking the guy who fits with this team best, and in my opinion thats Cousins. We have two power forwards under contract for next season, both are young and have potential. We only have one center.

On the other hand, what we really need is interior defense, and Favors has the potential to be an elite defender both on the ball and in help. Cousins will block some shots, but a lot of people think his overall defense will be questionable.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I may have aimed a little high with the 25 pt's per. But one never knows. As far as playing below the rim, I think its where you project him to play as far as how it affects him. If you see him as a PF (which I don't), then yes I see that as a draw back. But as a center, I don't see that many centers around the league that have serious hops. His lateral movement gives me pause at times, but other times he appears to have quick feet. So I'll wait till the combine results before passing judgement. But I do suspect I'm right about it.

Here's where I'am with the Cousins/Favors thing. First off, I'd be happy with either one of them. However, the Kings need help at center, and I see Cousins as a center and I don't see Favors as a center. Secondly, I tend to lean toward results as opposed to potential. Anyone thats watched both players play a lot this year can't deny that Cousins results exceed Favors results. Yeah, I know that maybe if you switched places then maybe Favors would be the one with the results. Unfortunately I can't do that. So I have to live with what I see and not what I hope to see in the future.

Now if I have to choose between Favors and Davis. Thats a no contest. I have been underwhelmed by Davis and frankly don't see whay everyone else see's. I'd take Monroe in a heartbeat over Davis. Once again, results. Regardless of how Monroe played last year, he's played much better this year. And you have to give credit for improvement.

This much I know. If we end up with a top five pick, were going to get a pretty good player. Maybe a great player.

With the way he plays, whether you call him a PF or C really makes no difference. He'll show a little more perimeter skills in the NBA than he has had a chance to show at Kentucky, but his future really should lie in the low post. As far as low post play concerns, he'll have to play like Jefferson. It's not about a lack of Dwight Howard leaping/dunking ability, but a combination of reach, explosiveness, and leaping ability. He looks to have a good reach for his height, but there are plenty of centers that play higher. I doubt he's in the 9'3+ territory, but you never know. One of the things that kind of bothers me about him is that he gets off balance so easily whenever there's a body on him.

The C vs. PF thing, I'd definitely prefer a center but considering we have no lock at either position, I dare not be picky about either, unless I was convinced of the relative equality of the two players' values. I'd prefer to have a defensive presence at center considering centers have a higher impact defensively as anchors than PF's do, but I'm not yet convinced Cousins can be that anyways. As for as low post scoring goes? Yeah, Cousins has the edge there, and that's a very valuable skill. Favors would probably end up being a McDyess(in prime)/Stoudemire type scorer at full potential, but when you package that with his commitment to defense, that's not a bad trade off. I give Cousins the edge in that he fits our "needs" better, but that's not a huge deal at the moment because it's not like we have Bosh at the 4.

As far as potential vs. results go, I try to not show a bias towards either, but try to see them for what they are. Both are valuable in their own ways.

I think Cousins has a slightly higher basement (in that he has more advanced skills) and about the same ceiling as Favors. I'm just more willing to bet on Favors reaching his ceiling than Cousins at this point in their careers. Trust me though, I'd consider ourselves lucky to get either of them. I'd consider ourselves lucky to have a shot at Wes Johnson.

 

[Hoovtrain]

I look at this team, and what we have and what we need, and man, I want Evan Turner here.

The one downside ( or upside ) of the Landry move is that now I just have no idea who were going to take. Before Landry, I was sure it would be a big ( because we would be outside of the Turner/Wall range ) .. now I just dont know.

Avery Bradley would seem like a good fit with Tyreke, but drafting him at our pick could be a stretch. I like him though. As far as bigs go, I want either Cousins or Aldrich. Havent seen a ton of Favors, but from what I have seen I wasnt overly impressed. Everytime I see Alabi he is in foul trouble. The one time I saw Udoh he was alright, and I havent seen Whiteside.

It seems like this draft has a solid top 3. Wall, Turner, and Cousins. Then just a notch below them are Johnson and Aldrich. Unfortunetly, our pick should fall just outside those 5 players. Im not taking into account team needs yet, but thats how I feel the talent in this draft is being viewed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but we are currently only behind NJ, MIN and GS, so wouldn't that put us inside the top 5?

 

[dbfish]

I may have aimed a little high with the 25 pt's per. But one never knows. As far as playing below the rim, I think its where you project him to play as far as how it affects him. If you see him as a PF (which I don't), then yes I see that as a draw back. But as a center, I don't see that many centers around the league that have serious hops. His lateral movement gives me pause at times, but other times he appears to have quick feet. So I'll wait till the combine results before passing judgement. But I do suspect I'm right about it.

Here's where I'am with the Cousins/Favors thing. First off, I'd be happy with either one of them. However, the Kings need help at center, and I see Cousins as a center and I don't see Favors as a center. Secondly, I tend to lean toward results as opposed to potential. Anyone thats watched both players play a lot this year can't deny that Cousins results exceed Favors results. Yeah, I know that maybe if you switched places then maybe Favors would be the one with the results. Unfortunately I can't do that. So I have to live with what I see and not what I hope to see in the future.

Now if I have to choose between Favors and Davis. Thats a no contest. I have been underwhelmed by Davis and frankly don't see whay everyone else see's. I'd take Monroe in a heartbeat over Davis. Once again, results. Regardless of how Monroe played last year, he's played much better this year. And you have to give credit for improvement.

This much I know. If we end up with a top five pick, were going to get a pretty good player. Maybe a great player.

Have to agree with what you're saying here.
Cousins over Favors, Favors over Monroe, Johnson over Monroe, Monroe over Davis.
Wasn't a Monroe fan at all when season started, but he has shown a lot of improvement on his inside game. Davis hasn't. I don't think Davis' body will ever fill out enough to be a very affective big.
I would be amazed if the top three weren't 1. Wall 2. Turner 3. Cousins. (at this point in time of course).

 

[beb0p]

I wish I can remember where I read it but an NBA scout said it's next to impossible for a big man to learn the post game after he is in the pros. If he does not possess a solid post game before he enters the league then he probably never will. Reasons? The coach will not put the ball in said player's hands in the post and the defenders in the NBA are so dominant that it makes the learning curve too steep. It's evolves into a cycle that feeds on itself with the young player repeatedly not getting opportunity in the post or failing to deliver in the post until the day he retires. And it's an observation that is very much true except for maybe a handful of cases.

In other words, a young talented big man can stunt his offensive growth if he enters the NBA too early.

With that in mind with regard to the Favors vs Cousins debate, I like Favors but I want him to stay in college until he develops a good low post game. If Favors declares for the draft this summer, I'd be very nervous using a top five pick on him. Favors has a developing low post game that is just that: developing. If he enters the NBA this year, I don't think he'll ever become the low post guy that he can be. And since he doesn't have much of a face-up game, it's going to be a challenge for him to turn into a high-scoring forward. He'll still be a good pro but I'm not sold that he'll be an all-star until he shows me the ability to score on the block and create his own shots in college.

Cousins, on the other hand, is ready to play in the NBA now. His low post scoring and his rebounding translate well to the NBA. He can be a 14 and 9 guy right now if he plays in the NBA, and in a few years he has the ability to be a legit 20-10 guy. His immaturity and his temper are not deal breakers. Charles Barkley was a lazy immature brat who clashed with his college coach. He turned out alright. And you can't tell me that Shaq, Rasheed, Karl Malone, Dennis Rodman, Vin Baker, Shawn Kemp, etc are model citizens. A lot of talented big man come with warning labels. I'd rather Cousins be grounded like Tim Duncan but that's not going to happen. What I'm saying is, I'm not going to turn down a 20-10 guy for a raw athletic PF with upside but still needs a lot of growth to get there.

Just my two cents.

.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Correct me if I am wrong, but we are currently only behind NJ, MIN and GS, so wouldn't that put us inside the top 5?

Considering our bad luck in the lottery last year, I think there's some sense that we should expect to move down, rather than up (if we go in at #4, we could finish anywhere between #1 and #7).

But I think the feeling is that we should probably move up a bit in the standing before the end of the season anyway. Landry will get familiar with the team, and our schedule eases up a bit. There are six teams stacked up above us within 4.5 games, so it's not at all unreasonable to think we might pass a few - Washington especially, as they've completely blown it up.

 

[NME]

A late-season Woss streak, somebody pulls a lucky top-3, and we could end up #10 or worse.

 

[bajaden]

I wish I can remember where I read it but an NBA scout said it's next to impossible for a big man to learn the post game after he is in the pros. If he does not possess a solid post game before he enters the league then he probably never will. Reasons? The coach will not put the ball in said player's hands in the post and the defenders in the NBA are so dominant that it makes the learning curve too steep. It's evolves into a cycle that feeds on itself with the young player repeatedly not getting opportunity in the post or failing to deliver in the post until the day he retires. And it's an observation that is very much true except for maybe a handful of cases.

In other words, a young talented big man can stunt his offensive growth if he enters the NBA too early.

With that in mind with regard to the Favors vs Cousins debate, I like Favors but I want him to stay in college until he develops a good low post game. If Favors declares for the draft this summer, I'd be very nervous using a top five pick on him. Favors has a developing low post game that is just that: developing. If he enters the NBA this year, I don't think he'll ever become the low post guy that he can be. And since he doesn't have much of a face-up game, it's going to be a challenge for him to turn into a high-scoring forward. He'll still be a good pro but I'm not sold that he'll be an all-star until he shows me the ability to score on the block and create his own shots in college.

Cousins, on the other hand, is ready to play in the NBA now. His low post scoring and his rebounding translate well to the NBA. He can be a 14 and 9 guy right now if he plays in the NBA, and in a few years he has the ability to be a legit 20-10 guy. His immaturity and his temper are not deal breakers. Charles Barkley was a lazy immature brat who clashed with his college coach. He turned out alright. And you can't tell me that Shaq, Rasheed, Karl Malone, Dennis Rodman, Vin Baker, Shawn Kemp, etc are model citizens. A lot of talented big man come with warning labels. I'd rather Cousins be grounded like Tim Duncan but that's not going to happen. What I'm saying is, I'm not going to turn down a 20-10 guy for a raw athletic PF with upside but still needs a lot of growth to get there.

Just my two cents.

.

No argument from me. I will say this in regard to a player developing a post game in the NBA. I think it has a lot to do with the player and also what team he might go to. If you luck out and go to a team that has a good coaching staff and management that knows what you need to learn, then I think its possible. Bynum didn't have much of a post game when he came into the league. Some might argue that he still doesn't, but he's progressed pretty well. Jermaine O'Neal didn't have a post game either and his post game is very good now, when healthy.

But your right in the sense that when players went into the NBA after four years of college, they either had skills or they didn't. And if they didn't they probably wern't going to develop that much more. There are exceptions of course, that was the general rule.

 

[bajaden]

A late-season Woss streak, somebody pulls a lucky top-3, and we could end up #10 or worse.

Thats the spirit!!

 

[Gary]

Thanks for the info. Having seen so little of him I was just making some casual observations. When comparing him to Randolf and Jefferson I was thinking more in terms of style of play rather then a direct comparison.

Your avatar is from the Itchy and Scratchy Land episode where Marge is afraid that this vacation to I&S Land will turn out to the trip to Amish Country where it flashes back to Homer putting ice cream cones on top of everything saying "Look Marge they are not fighting back" then he gets kicked by a mule.

Dang I am good at Simpsons trivia

 

[TheRaven]

Its a matter of whether you think Evans is our point guard of the future or not. If not, then Wall is the choice. If yes, then Turner is the perfect fit next to Evans.

Sorry to jump back a few pages, but I just wanted to go back to this point.

I am not sure I agree that Turner is such a great fit next to Evans. He has a good mid-range game, but he mostly plays with the ball in his hands because he is good creating his own shot and has some point-forward ability. He doesn't strike me as great playing off the ball when I have seen him, and he is a poor 3-point shooter. It is possible for him to increase the range on his shot like any young player, but he currently doesn't seem to have much confidence from there and doesn't take many 3s. What ones he does take are hitting at an awful percentage...I think it was below 30% the last time I saw it mentioned. He is a very good defender, but he doesn't offer something different than Tyreke on that end. What I mean by that is that Wall is lightning quick and could defend the quicker guards in the league while Tyreke takes whoever is bigger and tougher. If you have Evans and Turner on the court together you would probably be vulnerable to a quicker guard.

It would be very interesting to see what Petrie would do with a #1 or #2 pick, because I don't think either one of the top two in Wall or Turner are that great next to Evans. I guess that is part of the conundrum when you have a somewhat unorthodox player like Evans. In fact, I don't think any of the guys bandied about in the top-5 as of now are that great a fit for us. The closest to me would be Cousins because of his true center size and post game, but he has some significant question marks with the attitude issues and questionable defensive presence. It would be so much easier if there was a Joakim Noah type of defensive center prospect in this draft. I know he had his question marks and slid only one spot away from us in his draft, but I think even skeptics believed he would be solid defensively if nothing else. Maybe trade down for assets and take Aldrich with a lower pick? Take a risk and trade down to acquire someone like Thabeet? Like I said, tough spot for a GM to be in.

 

[Henkel]

Your avatar is from the Itchy and Scratchy Land episode where Marge is afraid that this vacation to I&S Land will turn out to the trip to Amish Country where it flashes back to Homer putting ice cream cones on top of everything saying "Look Marge they are not fighting back" then he gets kicked by a mule.

Dang I am good at Simpsons trivia

lol, well done sir.

I love the Simpson but I have to admit that I was not aware of which episode it was from. I do remember that episode now thanks to you. Impressive... damn impressive.

 

[bajaden]

Sorry to jump back a few pages, but I just wanted to go back to this point.

I am not sure I agree that Turner is such a great fit next to Evans. He has a good mid-range game, but he mostly plays with the ball in his hands because he is good creating his own shot and has some point-forward ability. He doesn't strike me as great playing off the ball when I have seen him, and he is a poor 3-point shooter. It is possible for him to increase the range on his shot like any young player, but he currently doesn't seem to have much confidence from there and doesn't take many 3s. What ones he does take are hitting at an awful percentage...I think it was below 30% the last time I saw it mentioned. He is a very good defender, but he doesn't offer something different than Tyreke on that end. What I mean by that is that Wall is lightning quick and could defend the quicker guards in the league while Tyreke takes whoever is bigger and tougher. If you have Evans and Turner on the court together you would probably be vulnerable to a quicker guard.

It would be very interesting to see what Petrie would do with a #1 or #2 pick, because I don't think either one of the top two in Wall or Turner are that great next to Evans. I guess that is part of the conundrum when you have a somewhat unorthodox player like Evans. In fact, I don't think any of the guys bandied about in the top-5 as of now are that great a fit for us. The closest to me would be Cousins because of his true center size and post game, but he has some significant question marks with the attitude issues and questionable defensive presence. It would be so much easier if there was a Joakim Noah type of defensive center prospect in this draft. I know he had his question marks and slid only one spot away from us in his draft, but I think even skeptics believed he would be solid defensively if nothing else. Maybe trade down for assets and take Aldrich with a lower pick? Take a risk and trade down to acquire someone like Thabeet? Like I said, tough spot for a GM to be in.

Whoever plays next to Evans should be a good ballhandler. Someone that can take the responsibility of bringing up the ball off of him at times. That doesn't mean he can't be the primiary ballhandler. The last thing I would worry about with Turner is his three point shot. He has good form on his shot. Better form than Evans does. So it will improve. He's great at stopping and popping from midrange, and because he's so good at getting to the basket, like Evans is, he'll always have that shot. Turner is also a terrific defender. That doesn't mean there aren't some little skitter bug pt guards out there that would be hard for either him or Evans to guard. But remember, that little guard has to guard them as well.

I'm not oppossed to Wall. But I see him as a player that plays only the point. I could be wrong about that. He does play off the ball on occasion. But his strengths are in distributing the ball. And by the way, his three point shot is suspect as well. We can't go wrong with either one. I just happen to like Turner more. That doesn't mean I'm right.

I also wouldn't be oppossed to trading down from the number one spot for an additional pick and then picking Cousins. If you can trade with the right team.

 

[hammystyle]

Whoever plays next to Evans should be a good ballhandler. Someone that can take the responsibility of bringing up the ball off of him at times. That doesn't mean he can't be the primiary ballhandler. The last thing I would worry about with Turner is his three point shot. He has good form on his shot. Better form than Evans does. So it will improve. He's great at stopping and popping from midrange, and because he's so good at getting to the basket, like Evans is, he'll always have that shot. Turner is also a terrific defender. That doesn't mean there aren't some little skitter bug pt guards out there that would be hard for either him or Evans to guard. But remember, that little guard has to guard them as well.

I'm not oppossed to Wall. But I see him as a player that plays only the point. I could be wrong about that. He does play off the ball on occasion. But his strengths are in distributing the ball. And by the way, his three point shot is suspect as well. We can't go wrong with either one. I just happen to like Turner more. That doesn't mean I'm right.

I also wouldn't be oppossed to trading down from the number one spot for an additional pick and then picking Cousins. If you can trade with the right team.

There'd be potential there to do that. Minny couldn't have a clearer need then someone like Evan Turner. Maybe they'd like Favors or Aldrich to pair with Jeff or Love, but Turner's a no-brainer. They need eveything he has. So if we're sitting at #2 and they've got #3 or #4...we might be able to get their late first (#25).

 

[bajaden]

There'd be potential there to do that. Minny couldn't have a clearer need then someone like Evan Turner. Maybe they'd like Favors or Aldrich to pair with Jeff or Love, but Turner's a no-brainer. They need eveything he has. So if we're sitting at #2 and they've got #3 or #4...we might be able to get their late first (#25).

Yeah, I was thinking of Minny when I wrote that. I'd just have a hard time talking myself out of Turner if we were sitting at number two. I'd need electric shock treatment afterwards, or a lot of cervesa..

 

[hammystyle]

Yeah, I was thinking of Minny when I wrote that. I'd just have a hard time talking myself out of Turner if we were sitting at number two. I'd need electric shock treatment afterwards, or a lot of cervesa..

Yeah, he's sick. I'd have no problem drafting him at #2 and keeping him. I guess it depends on how GP project Favors or Cousins. You would only make that deal if you thought they were the bees knees.

I think in my own mind that even more clearly delineates Favors from Cousins. I would trade Evan Turner for Favors because I believe in the talent, plus work ethic and drive. Turner's much more advanced now, but I'm pretty sure Favors will get there (plus he's a defensive big). I would never trade Turner for Cousins.

 

[beb0p]

No argument from me. I will say this in regard to a player developing a post game in the NBA. I think it has a lot to do with the player and also what team he might go to. If you luck out and go to a team that has a good coaching staff and management that knows what you need to learn, then I think its possible. Bynum didn't have much of a post game when he came into the league. Some might argue that he still doesn't, but he's progressed pretty well. Jermaine O'Neal didn't have a post game either and his post game is very good now, when healthy.

But your right in the sense that when players went into the NBA after four years of college, they either had skills or they didn't. And if they didn't they probably wern't going to develop that much more. There are exceptions of course, that was the general rule.

Not to argue here but I think Bynum had a post game when he entered the league, not a good one mind you but he did have the fundamentals down. Plus, he spend a lot of time in the minor league working on his game before he was thrown into the rotation. I can't recall if Jermain O'Neal had a post game when he entered the league. If he didn't then koodos to him for his hard work there.

I think the NBA scout implied that a young player who entered the league too early, before he has a post game, can stunt his own offensive game because he won't develop a good inside game after he's in the NBA. Be it a freshman or a senior.

When it comes to Derrick Favors. He's obviously talented, but I'm not sold. I'm not sure I'd pick him over Cole Aldrich. Maybe Favors can have a great tourney and separates himself. But right now, I'm just not that high on Favors.


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[bajaden]

Not to argue here but I think Bynum had a post game when he entered the league, not a good one mind you but he did have the fundamentals down. Plus, he spend a lot of time in the minor league working on his game before he was thrown into the rotation. I can't recall if Jermain O'Neal had a post game when he entered the league. If he didn't then koodos to him for his hard work there.

I think the NBA scout implied that a young player who entered the league too early, before he has a post game, can stunt his own offensive game because he won't develop a good inside game after he's in the NBA. Be it a freshman or a senior.

When it comes to Derrick Favors. He's obviously talented, but I'm not sold. I'm not sure I'd pick him over Cole Aldrich. Maybe Favors can have a great tourney and separates himself. But right now, I'm just not that high on Favors.


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I think I've stated many times that so far I'm underwhelmed by Favors. I'm cutting him some slack because of where he's playing, and that school's inability to develop big's. Georgia Tech's guard play leaves a lot to be desired. As I think I posted in another thread, I would like to have seen Favors on the floor with someone like Wall. But alas, it is what it is. So I'm keeping him ranked higher than I normally would, purely on the occasional flashes I see from him. He's also been a little more foul prone than I expected, but not alarmingly so.

Aldrich has a decent post game and a pretty good little jumper that he occasionaly goes to. Its just that he really doesn't look for his offense much. He just sort of takes whats there and plays defense and rebounds. He's a pretty good athlete with decent lateral quickness and decent jumping ability. It will be interesting to get the combine results on him. Favors is susposed to be an outstanding athlete. Once again he seldom gets a chance to display it.

As of late I've been taking a second look at Whiteside. I have three of his games recorded so I've been going back and rewatching them. He's very raw, but with a huge upside. He has legitimate size and length and seems to have good shotblocking instincts. He's pretty basic on rebounding in his technique, but looks like he could become a good rebounder with some Technique work. His offense is very crude, but he does at times show some flashes of development in that area. Anyway, the word project springs to mind. He's a very good athlete and appears to be coachable. To be honest the best thing he could do is stay in school. Another year in school and he might be a top five pick.

If he does enter the draft, and I think he'll at least throw his name out there and see what feedback he gets, I doubt he'll go any higher than the lower part of the first round. I could be wrong. I was wrong about Thabeet last year. Well, I was right about where he should have gone, but wrong about where he actually went. However, if I had another first round pick in that range I'd certainly take a flyer on him.

As far as the scout. I agree its a lot harder to learn skills on the fly in the NBA, than in highschool and college. The NBA is a grind with little time for practice. Most young players start to develop basic skills in highschool and on the street. By the time they reach college they probably have basic skills down. Something on which to build. If they don't, then they probably never will. Not because of going into the NBA too early as much of just not being capable.

I don't think learning to play in the post is rocket science. But I do think the better post players just have a natural instinct for playing in a crowd. A natural awareness of those around them. They also have patience and the ability to not panic and rush things. Some of those things can't be taught. Its sort of like being able to jump high or run fast. You either can, or you can't. You can't learn to run fast. Faster maybe, but thats it.

Thats why you sometimes see a player thats 6'6" playing in the post on a team and he has a teammate thats 6'9" playing away from the basket. The 6'6" guy just has more natural instincts. Its the one thing I still question about JT. He's certainly athletic enough and has a decent skill level when it comes to ballhandling and passing. But I'm not sure he has those natural instincts. Since he grew into his body late I'm willing to give him more time to work things out. But there is a limit to how long you can wait. Anyway, saying that a player that doesn't already have post skills when entering the NBA is akin to saying that they're no elephants in the room because I sprayed the room with elephant spray. By that, I mean its a given. My only point is that are from time to time for various reasons exceptions. In general I would agree with him. But with so many young players coming into the NBA there will probably be more exceptions in the future. A good job for the developmental league, if they ever get it to resemble a real minor league organization.

 

[hammystyle]

Some perspective on Favors

Chris Bosh's Freshman Year at GT (31.0 mpg):
15.6 ppg 9.0 rpg 1.2apg 2.2 bpg 1.0 spg 56% FG 73% FT 2.3 TO

Derrick Favors (multiplying to 31 mpg):
13.7 ppg 10.1 rpg 1.2 apg 2.3 bpg 1.1 spg 60% FG 59% FT 2.6 TO

Bosh was the better scorer who also knocked down some 3's, but Favors is a little better at everything else.

 

[beb0p]

Chris Bosh's Freshman Year at GT (31.0 mpg):
15.6 ppg 9.0 rpg 1.2apg 2.2 bpg 1.0 spg 56% FG 73% FT 2.3 TO

Derrick Favors (multiplying to 31 mpg):
13.7 ppg 10.1 rpg 1.2 apg 2.3 bpg 1.1 spg 60% FG 59% FT 2.6 TO

Bosh was the better scorer who also knocked down some 3's, but Favors is a little better at everything else.

.... And Demarcus Cousins still kick both their butts with 22-14 and 2.2 blocks if you multiply his stats to 31 mins. Not that I'm saying Cousins is better than Bosh.

I don't like to use stats as the definitive tool in evaluating players because stats at the college level can be misleading. When I first saw Bosh there was no doubt in my mind that he would be a 20+ ppg player in the NBA, the only questions were his strength and his defense; both of which I thought could be overcome by his taller than average height for a PF.

On the other hand, Favors does not leave me the impression that he will ever be a 20 ppg scorer in the league. But Favors can be very good in other areas. His defense especially. Do I think he is a star? I think he has a chance but as of right now, can't say that he is a sure thing.

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[hammystyle]

.... And Demarcus Cousins still kick both their butts with 22-14 and 2.2 blocks if you multiply his stats to 31 mins. Not that I'm saying Cousins is better than Bosh.

I don't like to use stats as the definitive tool in evaluating players because stats at the college level can be misleading. When I first saw Bosh there was no doubt in my mind that he would be a 20+ ppg player in the NBA, the only questions were his strength and his defense; both of which I thought could be overcome by his taller than average height for a PF.

On the other hand, Favors does not leave me the impression that he will ever be a 20 ppg scorer in the league. But Favors can be very good in other areas. His defense especially. Do I think he is a star? I think he has a chance but as of right now, can't say that he is a sure thing.
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Stats at the college level are rarely misleading once you adjust for age and level of competition. Favors is a young freshman producing strongly against top competition, as was Bosh. Scoring can be misleading, but rebounds, blocks, steals, assists, FG% will usually lead you to the right guys.

Cousins is having a monster year by any standard. He's the clear #4 to me with Favors #3. Attitude/Conditioning problems are too much of a red flag to put him above the other guys.

 

[bajaden]

Stats at the college level are rarely misleading once you adjust for age and level of competition. Favors is a young freshman producing strongly against top competition, as was Bosh. Scoring can be misleading, but rebounds, blocks, steals, assists, FG% will usually lead you to the right guys.

Cousins is having a monster year by any standard. He's the clear #4 to me with Favors #3. Attitude/Conditioning problems are too much of a red flag to put him above the other guys.

I really have a hard time putting Favors at number three. I mean you may ultimately be right. Its just that, stats aside, because they can be misleading to a degree, he just doesn't impress me the same way some others do. I haven't seen every game. But I've seen at least 10 games if not more. I can't think of one game where I came away thinking wow, that dudes impressive. I would certainly take him ahead of Jarvis Varnado. But you know what. Varnado has had some games this year where I went Wow. Double Wow. I mean the dude just singlehandedly shut down the other teams post play. But Varnado doesn't have the athleticism or the size that Favors has. Not to mention that Favors is a better offensive player right now. I have Cousins at number three. Attitude problems and all.

Hell, I'd hire him his personal shrink if I had to. The kid can play, and his conditioning hasn't been that much of a problem in the games I've seen. He does have a bit of a mean streak in him. If you can get him to channel it into his play, you might have something special. One thing you can say about him. He likes to compete and win. He's not lazy out on the floor. He plays hard. Yes, once in a while he's late getting back. But those instances are becoming fewer and fewer. He also likes to bang inside. At times he seems to really enjoy punishing whomever he's up against. I doubt you'll ever see him hanging out at the three point stripe.