King Keegan

iowamcnabb

iowamcnabb

Hall of Famer
#241
#241
From the Yahoo article

Brown has continued to harp on Murray’s dribbling both publicly and privately, trying to get more aggression from his soft-spoken rookie.

“I said, ‘I don’t know if you can dribble, you need to work on your dribbling,’” Brown said of a conversation he had with Murray. “I think he took offense to that, which I’m glad he did. He needs to, because he can dribble.”

Said Murray: “I feel like there’s a lot of elements to my game that I haven’t really shown. And I feel like he’s kind of poking at those different elements. ... I just know that I can get different shots at different levels. I know that I’m shooting the ball really well from the 3-point line this year, and I know that I can be a three-level scorer in this league.”
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#249
#249
THIS is what a winning culture looks like. It's obviously very, very early, but when a team can take a top pick and give them a small role that expands as time goes on, it lets them develop while still playing winning basketball.

Pretty much every Kings rookie for the last 16 years or so has been put in a situation to go out and put up numbers on a losing team. At the same time they've not gotten an improved roster around them, coaching and front office dysfunction, and no way to succeed.

We'll see what Monte does this offseason (and who they draft if the Kings keep their FRP) but it should continue to foster an environment where you bring a young player in and develop them within an established system. This is what we've been hoping for for years. Hopefully Keegan is just the first of many rookies that get developed by Brown in the "Kings way".
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#251
#251
iowamcnabb said:
Keegan did a podcast with a childhood friend. Some good info in here

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This was a great listen. 100% worth the listen of the whole thing. Keegan was definitely more comfortable talking and opening up with his friend than we've seen in regular media interviews. Much more laid back for him, and he actually talks a bunch. They explored his entire basketball career to see how he got to where he is today.

A couple interesting points I found:
  • In middle school he had to pick between baseball and basketball, and he picked basketball despite being better in baseball.
  • It's very evident from this podcast that Keegan was a late bloomer.
    • he was only 6'5 when his regular HS career ended. he grew to 6'8 during his prep year
  • At Iowa, he really looked up to Luke Garza and followed him by example
  • He blocked out the draft noise entirely in his final year at Iowa
    • when the season ended, he was completely surprised by mock drafts because he thought he was being projected in the late 1st round...
  • NBA teams wanted him to improve on his shooting and defense
  • He heard every single draft criticism that targeted his age, ceiling, etc.
  • He knew that other prospects might've not wanted to come here, but he wanted to be part of the reason why we ended our playoff drought
  • He went into SL wanting to prove everyone wrong
    • he made it a point to completely show out against the other top prospects in the SL
  • Attributes his November struggles to not having a consistent routine
46:20 is where they start talking about his pre-draft process.
 
iowamcnabb

iowamcnabb

Hall of Famer
#252
#252
Some other interesting notes:

He sees Sac as having the vibes of the Midwest. He didn’t say it but I think that was another reason he wanted to come here.

goes into detail about his close relationship with his brother.

very evident that he knows his place on whatever team he is on but is also ready to step up when an opportunity presents itself.

insinuated that people over value flashy play and athleticism. Knows his play contributes to winning.

Is starting a foundation based in iowa with his whole family that will help underprivileged both back home and in Sac.

said something clicked for him defensively around the all star break.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#255
#255
If Keegan develops into a star, the KINGS are going to be scary good for years to come.

I’m just bummed that Kris Murray’s draft stock seems to be rising to point where the KINGS will have pretty much no chance to land him unless they somehow trade up.

Adding Vezenkov and Murray next season could go a long way toward fulfilling my dream for an all left-handed lineup.

Is Julius Randle available? Lol
 
King-Da-Yah

King-Da-Yah

Starter
#256
#256
KingsFanSince85 said:
If Keegan develops into a star, the KINGS are going to be scary good for years to come.

I’m just bummed that Kris Murray’s draft stock seems to be rising to point where the KINGS will have pretty much no chance to land him unless they somehow trade up.

Adding Vezenkov and Murray next season could go a long way toward fulfilling my dream for an all left-handed lineup.

Is Julius Randle available? Lol
Click to expand...
Imagine we had him, as our left handed C-Webb…golly…
 
ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#257
#257
KingsFanSince85 said:
If Keegan develops into a star, the KINGS are going to be scary good for years to come.

I’m just bummed that Kris Murray’s draft stock seems to be rising to point where the KINGS will have pretty much no chance to land him unless they somehow trade up.
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Although it would be nice to get Kris’s talent on the Kings, sometimes it’s best not to have twins that play the same position on the same team. If you look at the Morris twins, Martin twins, etc. they blossomed more as players when they were on different teams.

Since Keegan and Kris play the same position, they may stand in each others way of reaching their full potential as players.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#261
#261
ockingsfan said:
Although it would be nice to get Kris’s talent on the Kings, sometimes it’s best not to have twins that play the same position on the same team. If you look at the Morris twins, Martin twins, etc. they blossomed more as players when they were on different teams.

Since Keegan and Kris play the same position, they may stand in each others way of reaching their full potential as players.
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I haven't watched a ton of Kris, but 2 Keegan Murray's absolutely WOULD NOT get in the way of each other. 2 elite shooting 3/4 wings that can defend the perimeter, unselfish, work off-ball, lights out C&S? And we're obviously still hoping Keegan has another gear where he can develop as an on-ball scorer.

The Morris twins were both small-ball 4's. The Martin twins just aren't the same pedigree of player and both guys just really didn't get an opportunity to play at the same time. But if you were watching, you saw how both guys could easily share the floor and be valuable wing guys. The Hornets just remain dumb lol and didn't realize what they had.

I need to watch more Kris, but Keegan has absolutely shown he's a 3/4 flex wing. I assume Kris is too based on scouting and my limited tape on him.
 
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T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#262
#262
206Fan said:
This was a great listen. 100% worth the listen of the whole thing. Keegan was definitely more comfortable talking and opening up with his friend than we've seen in regular media interviews. Much more laid back for him, and he actually talks a bunch. They explored his entire basketball career to see how he got to where he is today.

A couple interesting points I found:
  • In middle school he had to pick between baseball and basketball, and he picked basketball despite being better in baseball.
  • It's very evident from this podcast that Keegan was a late bloomer.
    • he was only 6'5 when his regular HS career ended. he grew to 6'8 during his prep year
  • At Iowa, he really looked up to Luke Garza and followed him by example
  • He blocked out the draft noise entirely in his final year at Iowa
    • when the season ended, he was completely surprised by mock drafts because he thought he was being projected in the late 1st round...
  • NBA teams wanted him to improve on his shooting and defense
  • He heard every single draft criticism that targeted his age, ceiling, etc.
  • He knew that other prospects might've not wanted to come here, but he wanted to be part of the reason why we ended our playoff drought
  • He went into SL wanting to prove everyone wrong
    • he made it a point to completely show out against the other top prospects in the SL
  • Attributes his November struggles to not having a consistent routine
46:20 is where they start talking about his pre-draft process.
Click to expand...
Absolutely WILD that the 2 biggest points of feedback he got (shooting and perimeter defense), he's turned into his 2 best NBA skills thus far.

Really great interview as you said. Really proves the point that just because he doesn't show a ton of emotion on the court and he's not super "flashy" that he's not an absolute workhorse to get better or that he's not extremely competitive.
 
ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#263
#263
The_Jamal said:
I haven't watched a ton of Kris, but 2 Keegan Murray's absolutely WOULD NOT get in the way of each other. 2 elite shooting 3/4 wings that can defend the perimeter, unselfish, work off-ball, lights out C&S? And we're obviously still hoping Keegan has another gear where he can develop as an on-ball scorer.

The Morris twins were both small-ball 4's. The Martin twins just aren't the same pedigree of player and both guys just really didn't get an opportunity to play at the same time. But if you were watching, you saw how both guys could easily share the floor and be valuable wing guys. The Hornets just remain dumb lol and didn't realize what they had.

I need to watch more Kris, but Keegan has absolutely shown he's a 3/4 flex wing. I assume Kris is too based on scouting and my limited tape on him.
Click to expand...
Seeing that the Kings won't likely be a position to draft Kris in the late 20s, I think the discussion will be moot.

However, with the way the Kings are playing and how Monte will probably try his hardest to bring back a large portion of the Kings current front court (i.e. Harrison Barnes and Trey Lyles) and possibly add Sasha to the team next year, the Kings will be pretty loaded at the SF/PF position for the next few years.

Seeing that Keegan should be averaging 32+ mpg going forward and assuming we bring back HB and add Sasha at the minimum this summer, the minutes would be scarce for a rookie SF/PF to break into the line up. Add back in Lyles and Kris would hardly see the floor.

What's best for the Kings talent wise (i.e. getting Kris in the draft) and what's best for Kris's career (i.e playing time to develop as a player) may be two different things.
Although I would love to get a talent like Kris in the draft at our position, Kris would be better off getting to a team that can give him a lot of minutes to develop.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#264
#264
ockingsfan said:
Seeing that the Kings won't likely be a position to draft Kris in the late 20s, I think the discussion will be moot.

However, with the way the Kings are playing and how Monte will probably try his hardest to bring back a large portion of the Kings current front court (i.e. Harrison Barnes and Trey Lyles) and possibly add Sasha to the team next year, the Kings will be pretty loaded at the SF/PF position for the next few years.

Seeing that Keegan should be averaging 32+ mpg going forward and assuming we bring back HB and add Sasha at the minimum this summer, the minutes would be scarce for a rookie SF/PF to break into the line up. Add back in Lyles and Kris would hardly see the floor.

What's best for the Kings talent wise (i.e. getting Kris in the draft) and what's best for Kris's career (i.e playing time to develop as a player) may be two different things.
Although I would love to get a talent like Kris in the draft at our position, Kris would be better off getting to a team that can give him a lot of minutes to develop.
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For me, you can never have enough 3/4 flex wing archetypes that can shoot. It's just way too valuable in today's NBA. And while it'd be great to keep Lyles/HB and bring over Vezenkov, none of those guys are guaranteed to be on the team next season. So while it potentially looks like a strength, that still remains to be seen.

And at any rate, the wing spot is still the weakest on the team and it's the most valuable role player position in the NBA. And star position, but those are even more rare. If the prospect is a similar talent profile to a guard or Center, you're taking the wing every time. Especially on a team with De'Aaron Fox and Domantas Sabonis. That was part of my argument on the Murray vs Ivey debate; one dude is 6'9 and plays the most valuable and rare position in the NBA and the other dude creates potentially creates another guard jam you have to figure out down the line.
 
ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#265
#265
The_Jamal said:
For me, you can never have enough 3/4 flex wing archetypes that can shoot. It's just way too valuable in today's NBA. And while it'd be great to keep Lyles/HB and bring over Vezenkov, none of those guys are guaranteed to be on the team next season. So while it potentially looks like a strength, that still remains to be seen.

And at any rate, the wing spot is still the weakest on the team and it's the most valuable role player position in the NBA. And star position, but those are even more rare. If the prospect is a similar talent profile to a guard or Center, you're taking the wing every time. Especially on a team with De'Aaron Fox and Domantas Sabonis. That was part of my argument on the Murray vs Ivey debate; one dude is 6'9 and plays the most valuable and rare position in the NBA and the other dude creates potentially creates another guard jam you have to figure out down the line.
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Yes, the best thing for the Kings would be to take a talented SF/PF like Kris in the draft. But, that was not the point of my post.

The point of my post was that for Kris's career, he would be better off on a team that can give him playing time and a shot at starting. Barring a disastrous summer where we let HB walk and can't bring over Sasha, Kris will have a lot smaller role on the Kings than he would on a team like Houston. Keegan is established at the SF/PF spot and I think it likely that HB is back. If HB is back, he's likely starting next to Keegan for the next 2 or 3 years. Kris could start from day 1 for a team like Houston.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#266
#266
ockingsfan said:
Yes, the best thing for the Kings would be to take a talented SF/PF like Kris in the draft. But, that was not the point of my post.

The point of my post was that for Kris's career, he would be better off on a team that can give him playing time and a shot at starting. Barring a disastrous summer where we let HB walk and can't bring over Sasha, Kris will have a lot smaller role on the Kings than he would on a team like Houston. Keegan is established at the SF/PF spot and I think it likely that HB is back. If HB is back, he's likely starting next to Keegan for the next 2 or 3 years. Kris could start from day 1 for a team like Houston.
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Possibly. I think watching Keegan this year really has shown what a great structure and a realistic role can do for a young player's development. HOU has had a million FRP's over the last 3 years and they're still horrible. Same with DET. The Hornets got lucky moving up in the draft to get LaMelo and they've been stuck in the lottery for all their existence. The Kings, until this season and Monte taking over, were an organization where young players careers went to die.

Kris might get more playing time there, but I can't say him getting 30+ with one of those franchises would be better than a 15-20 MPG role off the bench for us with what we're building here. Especially next to his brother? I mean come on, talk about easing a transition to the NBA.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#267
#267
The_Jamal said:
Absolutely WILD that the 2 biggest points of feedback he got (shooting and perimeter defense), he's turned into his 2 best NBA skills thus far.

Really great interview as you said. Really proves the point that just because he doesn't show a ton of emotion on the court and he's not super "flashy" that he's not an absolute workhorse to get better or that he's not extremely competitive.
Click to expand...
I just don't see what you see on the defensive end. He's really slow afoot and gets blown by all the time. He has his moments and can sometimes cover and get chase down blocks but I wouldn't consider him to even be an average defender at this point. He just doesn't have the quick twitch that most of the other good defenders have. I think he can get to average fairly quickly in his career because he's smart, has decent length and isn't a sieve athletically but I just don't see a good perimeter defender when I watch him.

I questioned his shooting as well but after watching more tape, I was pretty convinced that he was going to be a solid shooter after we drafted him. I was thinking 35% this year and then 37% the next couple. After watching SL, I was blown away by his efficiency. He was on another level over the summer and that efficiency has rolled over into the NBA with his perimeter shot.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#269
#269
I think Jayson Tatum was brought up by a few people during the pre-draft period as a best-case scenario for Keegan in the NBA. So far their respective rookie stats are pretty similar. Tatum's shooting splits are about 2.5% points higher across the board. Also, not shown below is that Tatum averaged 3 3pt attempts per game and Keegan is averaging 6 3pt attempts per game. Here's the numbers:

J. TATUM (30.5 min) 13.9 pt 5.0 rb 1.6 at 0.7 bk 1.0 st 2.0 pf 1.4 to [fg 47.5 / 3p 43.4 / ft 82.6]
MURRAY (29.8 min) 11.9 pt 4.6rb 1.2 at 0.5 bk 0.8 st 1.9 pf 0.8 to [fg 44.7 / 3p 40.9 / ft 80.3]

Keegan's pre-All Star and post-All Star splits are closer than I expected them to be (small sample size is a factor though) but one stat that jumps off the page -- he's averaging 1.9 assists per game against 0.1 turnovers per game in the 7 games since the All-Star break. A very encouraging sign! He's also nearly doubled his steals per game from 0.7 to 1.3 so that's another trend to keep an eye on.
 
M

midtowner

Starter
#270
#270
ESP47 said:
I just don't see what you see on the defensive end. He's really slow afoot and gets blown by all the time. He has his moments and can sometimes cover and get chase down blocks but I wouldn't consider him to even be an average defender at this point. He just doesn't have the quick twitch that most of the other good defenders have. I think he can get to average fairly quickly in his career because he's smart, has decent length and isn't a sieve athletically but I just don't see a good perimeter defender when I watch him.

I questioned his shooting as well but after watching more tape, I was pretty convinced that he was going to be a solid shooter after we drafted him. I was thinking 35% this year and then 37% the next couple. After watching SL, I was blown away by his efficiency. He was on another level over the summer and that efficiency has rolled over into the NBA with his perimeter shot.
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Rookies are almost always bad on defense. I’m encouraged because he doesn’t look like a lost cause on the perimeter (there is lots of room for improvement with positioning/length) and his off-ball defense looks much improved over the last 15-20 games (eye test).
 
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