kevin martin discussion
- Thread starter tyrant
- Start date
Rip Hamilton scored the most points on a single freak team that broke all the rules and didn't even have a #1, let alone a #2, but he was not the #1 guy on the team. not the straw that stirred the drink. He was just a designated scorer that was no better than the #3 guy on the team (Billups, Big Ben) and maybe #4 (Sheed, who was actual the guy who put them over the top). He averaged all of 17.6ppg that year. If Rip is the standard, then every single team in the league has a championship caliber #1.
Last edited:
Conversely Kevin needs to develop a handle, muscle, winning attitude, more consistent stroke from everywhere. But, those are only four weaknesses, pretty darn impressive. He is a pretty efficient guy when it comes down to it, and a lot of times he masks his own weaknesses by exceeding an expectation on any given play. I would much rather have a player who exceeds expectations and carries his own weight...than the alternatives. By all accounts he is affable off the court, and a decent citizen so far. Once he matures, he could be quite a player. And that is why they paid him, he has the chance to be great, and the kings have that chance with him. Medium risk-high reward.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeah, that's about right, Monta Ellis reminds me alot of John Starks when he was in his prime, very quick/athletic, can shoot the lights out if he gets on a hot streak, and can handle the ball very well, too. Kevin might end up having more of a Dale Ellis type of role, even though Ellis was the 'go to' guy for a couple of years in Seattle, they also had Tom Chambers and Xavier McDaniel, and Ellis just played the role of long range assasin, which Kevin could do just fine, and still manage to average 20 pts a game, too.
Martin is 3 years away from entering his prime. I can't even come close to understanding the statement that he can't create his own shot. You see him creating his own shot over and over and over and over again. It's not like they are setting double screens for him. (I can't remember once this season that's happened). Give Martin a couple of years to improve his ballhandling - a cross over dribble would make him insane - and give him a more experienced Hawes who draws a double team in the post, and he's going to be absurdly good. It's ridiculous to think of trading him unless you get a big youngin with his kind of talent. And I don't Orlando is interested in that deal...
Do you honestly think Hawes is going to be that dominant #1? I've read other forums where most people think he's a bust already...hopefully he isn't of course.
I know will have a lottery pick this year and FA money eventually but there isn't anyone in the Dwight Howard, Amare, Bynum mold this year's draft at a big =position who will blow everyone away. We need to get Martin some help. He's a very good player and easily our most valuable but maybe not our most talented. Considering age and dependablity he is our most valuable possession.
I know will have a lottery pick this year and FA money eventually but there isn't anyone in the Dwight Howard, Amare, Bynum mold this year's draft at a big =position who will blow everyone away. We need to get Martin some help. He's a very good player and easily our most valuable but maybe not our most talented. Considering age and dependablity he is our most valuable possession.
This, by far, has to be one of the most ridiculous and uneducated player breakdowns I've ever read. Do you actually WATCH the games? Have you seen Kevin Martin play over the past 3 seasons?
Most of what Kevin does is create shots for himself off the dribble. Sure, like Peja Stojakovic, he is fantastic at moving without the ball and he scores a lot of points doing that. He also scores his share of points off the fast break due to his quickness and speed. However, a majority of his scoring is created off the dribble.
He creates easy mid-range shots for himself. He creates fall aways. He creates layups. And, most of all, he creates foul shots. He averages nearly 9 FT attempts a game. You don't accomplish that without creating for yourself.
Kevin's problem is that he still deferred to Bibby and Artest. Now that Bibby is gone, he has one veteran less to defer to. If Artest is shipped out, I think you'll see Kevin become more aggressive.
One other HUGE factor is, Kevin, unlike Artest, will without hesitation pass to the open man once he is double-teamed. Every team in the league is double-teamming Kevin on a regular basis in an attempt to get the ball out of his hands. Once he passed out of the double-team, he was rarely, if ever, getting the ball back (mostly due to Bibby and Artest's penchant to shoot). Reggie Theus has to start coaching the other players to rotate the ball back to Kevin more often.
This is simply not accurate.
The intial criticism about creating shots was overstated but on point. Kevin is largely a dependent scorer, not an independent one. Why he is a #2 or a #3. He scores off off the ball movement. He scores out on the break, by leaking out. He scores when working off of picks. He scores when spotting up. But now put him out on the wing, defender in front of him down in a stance, and Kevin normally passes. He simply lacks the ballhandling skills to create a shot for himself out of nothing. He has to have an angle or an edge or somebody setting him up. He's very good at finding those opportunities, but its radically different than what a Kobe or Wade can do and makes him much more dependent on teammates, on systems, on plays called etc.
The intial criticism about creating shots was overstated but on point. Kevin is largely a dependent scorer, not an independent one. Why he is a #2 or a #3. He scores off off the ball movement. He scores out on the break, by leaking out. He scores when working off of picks. He scores when spotting up. But now put him out on the wing, defender in front of him down in a stance, and Kevin normally passes. He simply lacks the ballhandling skills to create a shot for himself out of nothing. He has to have an angle or an edge or somebody setting him up. He's very good at finding those opportunities, but its radically different than what a Kobe or Wade can do and makes him much more dependent on teammates, on systems, on plays called etc.
Last edited:
I'm curious, just how the hell do you know that. Excuse my french, but I'm sick and tired of people making outlandish statements. You, nor I, nor anyone else know just how good Hawes is going to be. You don't know how much more improvement Martin will make. If you want to say you don't think they won't lead us to a championship, fine. Thats just your opinion. But to state if for a fact, frankly just irritates the hell out of me.
By the way, if you pay attention, Martin creates his own shot just fine one on one. He just has a more difficult time one on two or one on three. He also creates easy shots for other people on the floor just by being on the floor.
By the way, if you pay attention, Martin creates his own shot just fine one on one. He just has a more difficult time one on two or one on three. He also creates easy shots for other people on the floor just by being on the floor.
No, YOU are not accurate.
In my post, I admitted that Kevin does score his fair share of points moving without the basketball and off the break. However, like ALL efficient scorers, he can score in a multitude of ways.
A great deal of the time, he IS creating his own shot. Before Artest and Bibby both returned, Kevin was averaging somewhere around 10-11 FT attempts a game. A majority of those foul attempts were the result of beating his man off the dribble. So, estimating here, around a 1/3 of his 23+ point average comes from the FT line because he beat his man off the dribble. Yes, I know there are some instances when his FT attempts aren't the result of beating his man off the dribble, but that is probably off-set by the amount of times he beats his man and scores without being fouled.
One way or another, a good share of his scoring is the result of his ability to create for himself.
It seems many want to lump Kevin into a certain category simply because he doesn't demand the ball or become a blackhole on offense. Does Tim Duncan really ever demand the ball? He has essentially the same demeanor on the court as Kevin (no, I'm not comparing their effectiveness or b-ball skills). Just because someone is stoic, isn't a blackhole on offense, and is more than willing to pass and play team ball doesn't mean they aren't a go-to player and can't create for themselves.
In Duncan's case, he never has to demand the ball (even though he wouldn't) because his teammates are coached to rotate the ball back to him if he passes out of a double-team that doesn't result in an easy scoring opportunity for someone else.
Kevin's teammates aren't doing that. When he passes out of a double-team, either Artest, Salmons, or Bibby usually force a one-on-one attempt. If Martin started forcing shots when double-teamed, most fans would start criticizing him just like they do Artest. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
In my post, I admitted that Kevin does score his fair share of points moving without the basketball and off the break. However, like ALL efficient scorers, he can score in a multitude of ways.
A great deal of the time, he IS creating his own shot. Before Artest and Bibby both returned, Kevin was averaging somewhere around 10-11 FT attempts a game. A majority of those foul attempts were the result of beating his man off the dribble. So, estimating here, around a 1/3 of his 23+ point average comes from the FT line because he beat his man off the dribble. Yes, I know there are some instances when his FT attempts aren't the result of beating his man off the dribble, but that is probably off-set by the amount of times he beats his man and scores without being fouled.
One way or another, a good share of his scoring is the result of his ability to create for himself.
It seems many want to lump Kevin into a certain category simply because he doesn't demand the ball or become a blackhole on offense. Does Tim Duncan really ever demand the ball? He has essentially the same demeanor on the court as Kevin (no, I'm not comparing their effectiveness or b-ball skills). Just because someone is stoic, isn't a blackhole on offense, and is more than willing to pass and play team ball doesn't mean they aren't a go-to player and can't create for themselves.
In Duncan's case, he never has to demand the ball (even though he wouldn't) because his teammates are coached to rotate the ball back to him if he passes out of a double-team that doesn't result in an easy scoring opportunity for someone else.
Kevin's teammates aren't doing that. When he passes out of a double-team, either Artest, Salmons, or Bibby usually force a one-on-one attempt. If Martin started forcing shots when double-teamed, most fans would start criticizing him just like they do Artest. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
