Karl asks Kings to explore Lawson option from Denver

Oh but you know it's true, because it's based on the remarks of "someone with insight into Karl's thinking". Insight? Really?? Can we get a show of hands from everyone who DOESN'T have SOME insight into Karl's thinking??

Here's some insight: Karl sent a signal that he - not the rebellious players on strike - is in charge. He knows that helps grease the wheels of progress, from practice to playoffs. It worked. He also wants the best players available. You can quote me.

Capt. Factorial said:
This crap is just snowballing at this point. It's classic media in the modern day - all you need is one anonymous source saying that Cousins might not be 100% off the table for an amazing offer and through the game of "Web Telephone" it turns into "ZOMG teh KiNgS wantz to tradez Cousins LOL!!!1!" And it's all based on one original vague source and a continual string of editorial-speculation-turned-into-fact as it travels down the line. Pathetic, but perhaps as with government we get the media we deserve.
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What's the fascination with getting a pg. What has Collison done besides show he fits next to our 2 best players and plays great defense. How bout we actually focus on a weakness we have like shooting/big men.
 
randymoss1881 said:
What's the fascination with getting a pg. What has Collison done besides show he fits next to our 2 best players and plays great defense. How bout we actually focus on a weakness we have like shooting/big men.
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Depends on who you replace Collison with.

I mean look at the difference Andre Miller has made. He has the best PG court vision that we've had in years. He's only a few games in and has set up our guys for a number of easy buckets. Collison is still a better overall player than him but you can clearly see how well a guy with the vision of Miller can run an offense. If we can get that plus a few more skills out of a guy, then trading Collison is a no brainer.
 
A problem here for Denver is they would likely view Collison differently than we do.

For example, with the Thompson/Landry contracts Collison is a budgetary steal.

But if Denver goes rebuild, how would they view him?

Tread the water most likely.

That's what makes me doubt a simple Landry + Collison + pick would be enough.

But to us considering our options Collison has worked great for the most part. I don't want to give up much more either.
 
Bricklayer said:
He has.

Unfortunately George has never seen that in person. He knows Lawson. Collison is just some dude in a suit who hangs around practices.
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LOL

I'm curious where this is going to lead if anywhere Brick.

But always hard to tell with our FO where their minds are at.
 
I think this team would benefit tremendously with a passing PG. Collison is a fine PG, but he's neither a scoring machine, nor a passing machine. I'd probably compare Collison to George Hill. They're similar players. Not much playmakers, but can distribute the ball a bit. They can also score when asked to, but they aren't amazing scorers. They're the game managers of basketball. The Alex Smith's of the NBA.

Conley is what Collison will be in a few years if he continues this streak of improvement.

This team needs a PG who can pass/distribute the ball. Lawson would fit perfectly here despite some of his shortcomings of defense. He takes pressure off of Rudy and Cuz to create for their teammates.
 
ESP47 said:
Depends on who you replace Collison with.

I mean look at the difference Andre Miller has made. He has the best PG court vision that we've had in years. He's only a few games in and has set up our guys for a number of easy buckets. Collison is still a better overall player than him but you can clearly see how well a guy with the vision of Miller can run an offense. If we can get that plus a few more skills out of a guy, then trading Collison is a no brainer.
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We don't have enough assets to be giving up for a pg when we have so many weaknesses. It would probably take our pick plus Nik at the very least to get him. We have needs at PF/Shooting and the whole dame bench.
 
I thought I would give my opinion on the Lawson rumor, and my opinion is, that I have no opinion. As for the, Cousins can be had for the right price rumor. That's all it is, a rumor based on speculation by someone (could be me) with insights into the wee dark cracks of Karls mind. In reality, could Cousins be traded for the right deal? Would I trade Cousins for the right deal? Well hell, if you came to me and offered Lebron James, Kevin Love, and two first round draft picks, I think I would have to consider it. Wouldn't you? Now that's not going to happen, but to say you wouldn't trade Cuz under any circumstance, is also losing touch with reality.

I hate to say this, but I do think were going through a test period with Karl as the main judge, and that Cousins, along with the rest of the team is part of that test. Who can and will embrace Karl's system. And there is a difference between can, and will. Some might be willing, but lack the necessary skills. And there might be some that have the skills, but are unwilling. And where will Cousins fit into all of that? It's one thing for Karl to expound on Cousins talent, and appear excited to finally work with a big man that talented, and its quite another thing to make it all work on the court. What happens if it doesn't work? I'm not saying it won't, and I'm certainly hoping it will. Cousins is my guy. But if you had to choose between Cousins, and what's painfully best for the team, which way would you lean?

I'm not advocating we trade Cousins. He's my favorite player on the team. I'm just wondering where your loyalties might lie, if it came down to Cousins, or the team. That's assuming that the team would get better by trading him. I'm just sort of poking the bear a little. What if the Thunder came and offered Durant for Cousins. What would you do? Just curious..
 
Karl is here for the long haul. If Cousins cannot conform then I have no doubt Karl would want to trade him.
 
bajaden said:
I thought I would give my opinion on the Lawson rumor, and my opinion is, that I have no opinion. As for the, Cousins can be had for the right price rumor. That's all it is, a rumor based on speculation by someone (could be me) with insights into the wee dark cracks of Karls mind. In reality, could Cousins be traded for the right deal? Would I trade Cousins for the right deal? Well hell, if you came to me and offered Lebron James, Kevin Love, and two first round draft picks, I think I would have to consider it. Wouldn't you? Now that's not going to happen, but to say you wouldn't trade Cuz under any circumstance, is also losing touch with reality.

I hate to say this, but I do think were going through a test period with Karl as the main judge, and that Cousins, along with the rest of the team is part of that test. Who can and will embrace Karl's system. And there is a difference between can, and will. Some might be willing, but lack the necessary skills. And there might be some that have the skills, but are unwilling. And where will Cousins fit into all of that? It's one thing for Karl to expound on Cousins talent, and appear excited to finally work with a big man that talented, and its quite another thing to make it all work on the court. What happens if it doesn't work? I'm not saying it won't, and I'm certainly hoping it will. Cousins is my guy. But if you had to choose between Cousins, and what's painfully best for the team, which way would you lean?

I'm not advocating we trade Cousins. He's my favorite player on the team. I'm just wondering where your loyalties might lie, if it came down to Cousins, or the team. That's assuming that the team would get better by trading him. I'm just sort of poking the bear a little. What if the Thunder came and offered Durant for Cousins. What would you do? Just curious..
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I drive George Karl directly down to Baja and dump him off at the beach house next to yours for a nice sunny retirement.

Karl has coached in the league 30 years, he's never gotten it done. He won't coach 30 more, and there is no evidence whatsoever he can get it done in the end without a Boogie Cousins in the short time remaining to him. So he can jump off a bridge for all I care if he can't make it work. That's on him. There's a great many coaches who could.

Cousins is a player so talented he could win an MVP. You give him to Pat Riley he would absolutely build a contender around him inside of 2 years. If we want to continue being miserable and stupid we will deserve to lose him, but I'm not going to drive him to the door. I'd burn down every single thing in this franchise, and the nice new building to boot, before I lose a guy who could easily end up being the 2nd best player in the 70yr history of the franchise. If you can't make a team win with a talent like DeMarcus Cousins then you have a severe problem. You. Not him.
 
Bricklayer said:
I drive George Karl directly down to Baja and dump him off at the beach house next to yours for a nice sunny retirement.

Karl has coached in the league 30 years, he's never gotten it done. He won't coach 30 more, and there is no evidence whatsoever he can get it done in the end without a Boogie Cousins in the short time remaining to him. So he can jump off a bridge for all I care if he can't make it work. That's on him. There's a great many coaches who could.

Cousins is a player so talented he could win an MVP. You give him to Pat Riley he would absolutely build a contender around him inside of 2 years. If we want to continue being miserable and stupid we will deserve to lose him, but I'm not going to drive him to the door. I'd burn down every single thing in this franchise, and the nice new building to boot, before I lose a guy who could easily end up being the 2nd best player in the 70yr history of the franchise. If you can't make a team win with a talent like DeMarcus Cousins then you have a severe problem. You. Not him.
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Cuz is great but maybe not that great. I'm not at all sure there are a lot of NBA coaches that could put together a winner with Cuz. We have a ways to go with our guy to know whether we will be able to bank it. I' hoping so and expecting it but we/he aren't yet.
 
Bricklayer said:
I drive George Karl directly down to Baja and dump him off at the beach house next to yours for a nice sunny retirement.

Karl has coached in the league 30 years, he's never gotten it done. He won't coach 30 more, and there is no evidence whatsoever he can get it done in the end without a Boogie Cousins in the short time remaining to him. So he can jump off a bridge for all I care if he can't make it work. That's on him. There's a great many coaches who could.

Cousins is a player so talented he could win an MVP. You give him to Pat Riley he would absolutely build a contender around him inside of 2 years. If we want to continue being miserable and stupid we will deserve to lose him, but I'm not going to drive him to the door. I'd burn down every single thing in this franchise, and the nice new building to boot, before I lose a guy who could easily end up being the 2nd best player in the 70yr history of the franchise. If you can't make a team win with a talent like DeMarcus Cousins then you have a severe problem. You. Not him.
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So you are giving the Big O the edge over Boogie Cousins?
 
pshn80 said:
Cuz is great but maybe not that great. I'm not at all sure there are a lot of NBA coaches that could put together a winner with Cuz. We have a ways to go with our guy to know whether we will be able to bank it. I' hoping so and expecting it but we/he aren't yet.
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Name a top 25 player that had more dysfunction and less help in their first 5 years than cousins. Almost every other organization in the league has managed a talent like his with more likelihood of producing a winner. Just once I'd like to see this organization set him up to succeed before we decide he can't do it.
 
Bricklayer said:
Big O is often named as a Top 10 all time guy, so yeah, Boogie has got some work to do. :)
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:) Lots of good stuff about Oscar Robertson here--> http://www.thebigo.com/main.php

Excerpt:

"Say I have the ball at the top of the key and I am dribbling, keeping my defender at bay with my body as I read the court," Robertson writes. "Down on the baseline, Jack Twyman is running toward a pick set on the low block by Wayne Embry. Maybe Jack's defender is trailing him, which means, I hope, Jack will run past the pick, curl tightly around it and pop out in front with his hands ready so I can hit him with a pass in rhythm. I'm watching for this. But I'm also watching to see if the defender is going to aggressively overplay or pop over Wayne's pick and try to deny that very pass. If he does try to play aggressively, I'm trusting Jack to gauge this and react, perhaps fading to the corner for an uncontested jump shot or perhaps he will slip back door and be available for a bounce pass and a layup. Maybe Wayne, after setting the pick, is going to be able to pop out for an open shot. Or maybe he will roll to the basket. Meanwhile, I've got my defender in front of me looking for the first chance to reach in, ruin our plans and head the other way with the ball."

And yes all this is about two of three seconds.


Another link--> http://hoopshype.com/blogs/smith/blackballed
 
Ty Lawson was the best player on a 60 win team and did fairly well in the playoffs (although he ran into the beginning of what was the greatness of Curry), the dude can really distribute the ball and score when needed, I would love Lawson on this team but I just don't think we have the assets for it and I would not give up Cousins for him but if Denver wants Rudy Gay and we can get a Wilson Chandler/Lawson for Rudy/Nik and filler im all in.
 
In a perfect world i would like a PG, who is more of a two way player. I didnt watch Lawson except for the last playoff run under Karl, but he is one of the shorter PG's out there and I would expect him having trouble to guard some of the bigger PG's of the league. I would gladly take Bledsoe or Schröder or any PG, who really can affect a game outside of scoring the ball, while being a defensive presence.
 
Bricklayer said:
I drive George Karl directly down to Baja and dump him off at the beach house next to yours for a nice sunny retirement.

Karl has coached in the league 30 years, he's never gotten it done. He won't coach 30 more, and there is no evidence whatsoever he can get it done in the end without a Boogie Cousins in the short time remaining to him. So he can jump off a bridge for all I care if he can't make it work. That's on him. There's a great many coaches who could.

Cousins is a player so talented he could win an MVP. You give him to Pat Riley he would absolutely build a contender around him inside of 2 years. If we want to continue being miserable and stupid we will deserve to lose him, but I'm not going to drive him to the door. I'd burn down every single thing in this franchise, and the nice new building to boot, before I lose a guy who could easily end up being the 2nd best player in the 70yr history of the franchise. If you can't make a team win with a talent like DeMarcus Cousins then you have a severe problem. You. Not him.
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LOL! But what do you think? Quit beating around the bush and tell us what you really think? OK, so let me enhance my hypothetical. What if, in my make believe world, I could guarantee you that we could win 60 games and the championship by trading Cousins for (?), would you still be unwilling to trade him? There is a method to my maddness here.
 
KingsFanGER said:
In a perfect world i would like a PG, who is more of a two way player. I didnt watch Lawson except for the last playoff run under Karl, but he is one of the shorter PG's out there and I would expect him having trouble to guard some of the bigger PG's of the league. I would gladly take Bledsoe or Schröder or any PG, who really can affect a game outside of scoring the ball, while being a defensive presence.
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I suspect that Karl would like Lawson because he ran his system exactly the way he wanted, and was successful doing so. Interesting that you brought up Bledsoe and Schroeder. I decided to head over to 82 games and check the defensive rating of several starting PG's. Some of them surprised me with a better rating than I would have thought.

Conley: 95.2
Wall: 95.2
Schroder: 95.3
Lillard: 95.5
Teague: 96.7
Rondo: 97.4
Parker: 98.7
Rose: 98.9
Rubio: 98.9
Irving: 99.1
Curry: 99.8
Smart: 99.8
Jennings: 100.0
Lowry: 100.0
Holiday: 101.1
Dragic: 101.3
Westbrook: 101.3
Calderon: 101.3
Paul: 101.5
Oladipo: 101.6
Collison: 103.1
Lawson: 104.7
I.Thomas: 105.1
Bledsoe: 113.3 (guarding SG's his rating is 103.3)
Harden: 113.6 (guarding SG's his rating is 98.0)

As you can see, sometimes perception isn't reality. Bledsoe is a decent defender when guarding SG's, but he has a terrible rating when guarding PG's. By the way, Paul, who is a decent to good defender is only a half inch taller than Lawson without shoes, and only a quarter inch taller with shoes. Both are around 6'1"in shoes. For the hell of it I checked the defensive rating of McLemore and it's a decent 100.8. By comparison Stauskas rating is 104.5, which is better than I thought it would be, and is better than McLemore's last year. I don't think stats tell the entire story, but they can't be ignored either.
 
I don't break up the Kings starting unit for Ty Lawson. I don't think he would be that much of an upgrade over Collison. I certainly don't give up Boogie, Rudy, Ben or the pick we have all suffered to keep.

Plus I don't believe the report. I think it is Agents spewing what Agents spew.
 
I've been talking trades for a few days with this deal, involving Kings fans, Nuggets fans, cap knowledgeable people etc.

Bottom line it is logical for Denver to ask for more than we would want to give up.

I don't see it happening.

At least right now, maybe depending on where the pick falls, and a surprise third team facilitator.
 
I would welcome Lawson, but I would not trade Collison for him. Lawson is better than Collison at breaking down the defense off the dribble, passing, and scoring, but Collison has been a better defender, a positive influence, and a Cuz favorite. Can't just ship him out.

As for the pick, outside of the top 3 and maybe Jerian Grant, there are just bench players. Willie Cauley-Stein would be the most interesting, but he could easily be the next Ryan Hollins.
 
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People are forgetting that last year we shopped our pick HARD!!! I am confident in saying that if we get a similar fir this year and Denver come calling offering Lawson and willing to take our bad contract as well, we pull the trigger without blinking!
 
post: 1159924 said:
I suspect that Karl would like Lawson because he ran his system exactly the way he wanted, and was successful doing so. Interesting that you brought up Bledsoe and Schroeder. I decided to head over to 82 games and check the defensive rating of several starting PG's. Some of them surprised me with a better rating than I would have thought.

Conley: 95.2
Wall: 95.2
Schroder: 95.3
Lillard: 95.5
Teague: 96.7
Rondo: 97.4
Parker: 98.7
Rose: 98.9
Rubio: 98.9
Irving: 99.1
Curry: 99.8
Smart: 99.8
Jennings: 100.0
Lowry: 100.0
Holiday: 101.1
Dragic: 101.3
Westbrook: 101.3
Calderon: 101.3
Paul: 101.5
Oladipo: 101.6
Collison: 103.1
Lawson: 104.7
I.Thomas: 105.1
Bledsoe: 113.3 (guarding SG's his rating is 103.3)
Harden: 113.6 (guarding SG's his rating is 98.0)

As you can see, sometimes perception isn't reality. Bledsoe is a decent defender when guarding SG's, but he has a terrible rating when guarding PG's. By the way, Paul, who is a decent to good defender is only a half inch taller than Lawson without shoes, and only a quarter inch taller with shoes. Both are around 6'1"in shoes. For the hell of it I checked the defensive rating of McLemore and it's a decent 100.8. By comparison Stauskas rating is 104.5, which is better than I thought it would be, and is better than McLemore's last year. I don't think stats tell the entire story, but they can't be ignored either.
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That surprises me, because Bledsoe was extraordinary as a defensive PG/SG off the bench for the Clippers as far as I remember. But this is based on watching the games. And keep in mind that Bledsoe is a very good rebounder for a PG and knows how to impact games without looking for his own shot all the time. I just really like Bledsoe's overall playstyle.
But actually I'm fine with leaving Bledsoe at PHX and trading for Schröder to play as a backup and future starting PG. ;)
 
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I wonder what it would take to pry away Schroder from Atlanta....that kid can play, I'm sure he will be wanting to run his own team in the near future rather than playing behind Jeff.
 
Lawson is a good player and was with Karl for quite awhile. He seems too expensive.
Karl's willingness to talk about trading Cousins is probably a psychological ploy. No one on any team is on a pedestal or out of reach. Treat everyone the same, even though they have different abilities. It makes some of the other players feel less like they are in the hot seat. It is how even-tempered and rational coaches treat their players. Wooden was famous for that. He played no favorites to the extent possible.
 
sdballer said:
Name a top 25 player that had more dysfunction and less help in their first 5 years than cousins. Almost every other organization in the league has managed a talent like his with more likelihood of producing a winner. Just once I'd like to see this organization set him up to succeed before we decide he can't do it.
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Wilt Chamberlain had a similar start to his career. He was traded several times because of his attitude. After he was traded by the Warriors to the 76'ers, the owner of the Warriors, Franklin Muelli (probably misspelled) said that Wilt was hard to like, and easy to hate. That fans came to see him lose. In Wilts first 6 years in the league he had 4 different head coaches. The team was sold and moved from Philadelphia to San Francisco. Wilt was very temperamental, and threatened to quit basketball after his rookie season because he was tired of teams double and triple teaming him along with hacking, pulling, and shoving him, and the ref's not calling any fouls.. Alex Hannum, who would later coach Wilt, said at the time that no big man suffered the abuse on the court that Wilt suffered. But that he was so unstoppable, no one seemed to care. Wilt's first coach, his rookie year, Neil Johnston, was fired because he couldn't get along with Wilt.

There are a lot of similarities between Cousins and Wilt, and I'm talking about temperment, inviorment, and impact on the game. Of course Wilt was a freak of nature at almost 7'2" with a 7'7"wingspan, and world class athleticism. But taken in a bubble in time, they seem to be on a very similar path.
 
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