John Salmons

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I did, in fact, mean Garcia...

 

[Cal-Kings]

Count me as someone who thought Petrie lost his mind when he signed Salmons. Mainly because we have so many guards just like him (or so I thought). And because watching a lot of Salmons play in Philly, he struck me as nothing but a one dimensional slasher.

However, I'm more than eager to eat those words. What I see now in him is maturity, good decision making, good shot selection, and a wide variety of skills all well suited to this offense. I'm very impressed with John Salmons.

As for comparisons to Garcia, other than they play the same position, I don't see any comparison. Garcia is mostly invisible on the court. He lacks the experience and maturity that Salmons shows consistently. I think Muss already plays him too many minutes.

We don't have time to develop a young player. We need to win.

 

[Bricklayer]

We don't have time to develop a young player. We need to win.

Uh...how's that again? That's only the strategy if you are actually playing for something. Back in 02 it made sense -- titles were on the line. What's on the line now? A #8 seed?

 

[Cal-Kings]

Uh...how's that again? That's only the strategy if you are actually playing for something. Back in 02 it made sense -- titles were on the line. What's on the line now? A #8 seed?

I figured that would be the reaction to my comment.

I think we disagree on philosophy. I never play to lose. I would never want a team to walk on the floor without being 100% intent on winning that game.

When a team decides it's a loser, you lose more than games. You lose everyone. You lose players, coaches, GM's and fans. You lose everything. As long as there's an opportunity to win a game, you MUST play to win that game. IMHO.

Garcia can get minutes in garbage time or in the 2nd quarter. But he should never be on the floor in the 4th quarter of a game we are still in.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I think we disagree on philosophy. I never play to lose. I would never want a team to walk on the floor without being 100% intent on winning that game.

It has nothing to do with playing to lose... The Charlotte Bobcats don't play to lose, they just have youth and inexperience and they end up losing more often than not, but it's not because they're playing to lose.

We weren't "playing to lose" when we were Mitch Richmond and the Richmondettes, either, we just weren't any good. Building your team around youth, and letting your young players develop are mutually exclusive.

This team isn't competing for a championship; we're only marginally competing for a playoff spot. The only thing that we're going to accomplish with this bull**** "rebuilding on the fly" that Petrie and the Maloofs seem to be committed to is remaining a perennial eighth-seed, the way that Utah and Portland were for years. I'd rather cut bait and have one or two bad years before getting back into the real race than keep on with this ridiculous tail-chasing that we're doing now.

 

[Cal-Kings]

It has nothing to do with playing to lose... The Charlotte Bobcats don't play to lose, they just have youth and inexperience and they end up losing more often than not, but it's not because they're playing to lose.

We weren't "playing to lose" when we were Mitch Richmond and the Richmondettes, either, we just weren't any good. Building your team around youth, and letting your young players develop are mutually exclusive.

This team isn't competing for a championship; we're only marginally competing for a playoff spot. The only thing that we're going to accomplish with this bull**** "rebuilding on the fly" that Petrie and the Maloofs seem to be committed to is remaining a perennial eighth-seed, the way that Utah and Portland were for years. I'd rather cut bait and have one or two bad years before getting back into the real race than keep on with this ridiculous tail-chasing that we're doing now.

I just disagree with the "cut bait" philosophy. I understand your justifications for it, I just happen to think that it's not a winning philosophy in the long run.

I'm not sure we're talking about drastically different decision making. I'm mainly talking about a rebuilding approach that says "WE ARE REBUILDING SO DON'T EXPECT US TO WIN MANY GAMES" vs. a "WE ARE COMPETING! WE ARE NOT REBUILDING!" and yet is rebuilding "behind the scenes".

I vote for a rebuilding behind the scenes because to come out and admit to your fans, to your older players, and to your coaches that we are rebuilding is death.

Recent example: Portland Trailblazers. That arena is a mortuary. The players rarely show any enthusiasm. I'm betting they just want out. You can't rebuild with that kind of atmosphere.

The Bobcats, however, are brand-spanking new. They have no history to live up to. They only have young players. They can use the excuse that they are "building" since they can't "rebuild", they've never been "built" before.

So go ahead and rebuild quietly, just don't make it obvious.

 

[Bricklayer]

I just disagree with the "cut bait" philosophy. I understand your justifications for it, I just happen to think that it's not a winning philosophy in the long run.

I'm not sure we're talking about drastically different decision making. I'm mainly talking about a rebuilding approach that says "WE ARE REBUILDING SO DON'T EXPECT US TO WIN MANY GAMES" vs. a "WE ARE COMPETING! WE ARE NOT REBUILDING!" and yet is rebuilding "behind the scenes".

I vote for a rebuilding behind the scenes because to come out and admit to your fans, to your older players, and to your coaches that we are rebuilding is death.

Recent example: Portland Trailblazers. That arena is a mortuary. The players rarely show any enthusiasm. I'm betting they just want out. You can't rebuild with that kind of atmosphere.

The Bobcats, however, are brand-spanking new. They have no history to live up to. They only have young players. They can use the excuse that they are "building" since they can't "rebuild", they've never been "built" before.

So go ahead and rebuild quietly, just don't make it obvious.

That's all fine and dandy but unfortunately there are practical consequences to plan B -- namely you continue to look back fondly to 1952 or whatever as your franchise's one and only championship while your "rebuilding without rebuilding" drags on and on until you are roughly as appealing as Cleveland (as a city -- as a team they finally got it right, truly rebuilt, and nabbed a pretty decent player).

The fans are leaving anyway. A slow seep of death that has rendered sellouts a transparent myth. No amount of .500 seasons, of 43 win teams boring you to tears, are going to bring those fans back or even sustain them at the current depleted level. They will continue to trickle away. And as the years drag on some of them are just going to flat stay away even if you somehow are forced into doing it right and truly rebulding somewhere down the line. Being a fan is a habit. 5-10 years of mind numbing mediocrity will kill the habit for a large chunk of your fan base far more permanently than a quick 2-3 year dive scooping up some exciting young players will. In the 2-3 year scenario, the fans who don't show up can still come back and call it a vacation. It happens precisely in front of them at an appreciable pace, they can see it, feel it, get excited about it. (Which actually Geoff may not understand since he is such a flatline personality.)

It is the difference between pulling the tape off inch by painful inch, or gritting your teeth and giving it the quick yank to get it over with.

 

[Cal-Kings]

That's all fine and dandy but unfortunately there are practical consequences to plan B -- namely you continue to look back fondly to 1952 or whatever as your franchise's one and only championship while your "rebuilding without rebuilding" drags on and on until you are roughly as appealing as Cleveland (as a city -- as a team they finally got it right, truly rebuilt, and nabbed a pretty decent player).

The fans are leaving anyway. A slow seep of death that has rendered sellouts a transparent myth. No amount of .500 seasons, of 43 win teams boring you to tears, are going to bring those fans back or even sustain them at the current depleted level. They will continue to trickle away. And as the years drag on some of them are just going to flat stay away even if you somehow are forced into doing it right and truly rebulding somewhere down the line. Being a fan is a habit. 5-10 years of mind numbing mediocrity will kill the habit for a large chunk of your fan base far more permanently than a quick 2-3 year dive scooping up some exciting young players will. In the 2-3 year scenario, the fans who don't show up can still come back and call it a vacation. It happens precisely in front of them at an appreciable pace, they can see it, feel it, get excited about it. (Which actually Geoff may not understand since he is such a flatline personality.)

It is the difference between pulling the tape off inch by painful inch, or gritting your teeth and giving it the quick yank to get it over with.

But I don't know what you are saying. Are you saying that if they'd come out and announced "WE SUCK! WE ARE REBUILDING! COME BACK LATER! LOOK AWAY FROM THE CAVS, NOTHING TO SEE HERE!" that down time would have changed and they would have been contenders again sooner?

I'm not sure how that would have changed anything. I think it would have made it even worse.

Almost every team in every sport has good times and bad times. Talent fluctuates. What causes a team that sucks to rise up again? Luck? Great GMs? I think it's some of both.

But, IMHO, announcing to the world that you are trading away your talent to start over is certain death and a longer term death.

You are correct that fairweather fans drop off in the down years. But, using the example of the Trailblazers, if you announce to the world that you suck, you will lose even faithful fans, you will lose any heart left in your franchise, and your climb will, I submit, take even longer since you now have so much more to repair.

I'm not disagreeing with whatever decisions need to be made to make the team better. I just prefer it to be done from a position of strength (even if it's make-believe) than from a position of actual, admitted weakness.

 

[Padrino]

But I don't know what you are saying. Are you saying that if they'd come out and announced "WE SUCK! WE ARE REBUILDING! COME BACK LATER! LOOK AWAY FROM THE CAVS, NOTHING TO SEE HERE!" that down time would have changed and they would have been contenders again sooner?

I'm not sure how that would have changed anything. I think it would have made it even worse.

Almost every team in every sport has good times and bad times. Talent fluctuates. What causes a team that sucks to rise up again? Luck? Great GMs? I think it's some of both.

But, IMHO, announcing to the world that you are trading away your talent to start over is certain death and a longer term death.

You are correct that fairweather fans drop off in the down years. But, using the example of the Trailblazers, if you announce to the world that you suck, you will lose even faithful fans, you will lose any heart left in your franchise, and your climb will, I submit, take even longer since you now have so much more to repair.

I'm not disagreeing with whatever decisions need to be made to make the team better. I just prefer it to be done from a position of strength (even if it's make-believe) than from a position of actual, admitted weakness.

it takes a death to bring about a rebirth...

man, i love being all cryptic and mysterious.

 

[Cal-Kings]

it takes a death to bring about a rebirth...

man, i love being all cryptic and mysterious.

 

[VF21]

You know what this is really all about?

The fans don't know what's happening. They don't know if this is some kind of master plan where we'll be very active participants in this year's FA market. They don't know if Petrie is planning on scrapping as much as possible without putting out the "FIRE SALE" sign in front of Arco.

There are those of you who seem to think it's best that the team just dump the season and go into rebuilding mode. There are others who don't want to see a season tanked because of the ripple effect.

I'm with the latter. You cannot expect fans to come to a game if they know ahead of time the team isn't going to try to win. And that's what would happen. IF we get rid of the veterans and have that new, young team, then fans will show up. But if we still have the veterans, and just don't play them, then there's no reason for anyone in their right mind to kick out major $$$ to see a loss.

There is NO right answer to this dilemma right now. People are trying to solve a puzzle but they're looking at the blank side of the pieces. The big picture just isn't out there for anyone to see right now...

Just my three cents, of course, but I know the last time I was in Arco, the crowd desperately wanted to help cheer the Kings onto a win. If that goes away, we may never get it back.

 

[Cal-Kings]

You know what this is really all about?

The fans don't know what's happening. They don't know if this is some kind of master plan where we'll be very active participants in this year's FA market. They don't know if Petrie is planning on scrapping as much as possible without putting out the "FIRE SALE" sign in front of Arco.

There are those of you who seem to think it's best that the team just dump the season and go into rebuilding mode. There are others who don't want to see a season tanked because of the ripple effect.

I'm with the latter. You cannot expect fans to come to a game if they know ahead of time the team isn't going to try to win. And that's what would happen. IF we get rid of the veterans and have that new, young team, then fans will show up. But if we still have the veterans, and just don't play them, then there's no reason for anyone in their right mind to kick out major $$$ to see a loss.

There is NO right answer to this dilemma right now. People are trying to solve a puzzle but they're looking at the blank side of the pieces. The big picture just isn't out there for anyone to see right now...

Just my three cents, of course, but I know the last time I was in Arco, the crowd desperately wanted to help cheer the Kings onto a win. If that goes away, we may never get it back.

I think you just said a lot of what I was trying to say.

Once it's gone, it may never come back. And to add to that dilemna in our case, if that happens, the team will move. Who's going to pay for an Arena for a bunch of losers?

 

[VF21]

I honestly think it's apples and oranges at this point to bring up the arena issue. The Maloofs want a team that will win. The fans want a team that will win. The players want to be on a team that will win. The courts are all the same when the players step onto them.

The idea has apparently been to try to floor as competitive a team as possible while waiting to clear some room for decent acquisitions in FA. Petrie said as much in quotes in a recent Voisin article.

I still believe he has a plan in mind. As I said above, I think it's not knowing that plan that leads some fans to doubt what's going on. I could be wrong, of course, but I am not ready to concede that he's inept, bumbling or a fool.

Unfortunately, there is no time machine available to take us to 2008 and see what's happened. We have to live through all of this...one day at a time. Sometimes it ain't easy being a Kings fan... but if you're a 49er fan, too, you're at least in familiar territory.

 

[GoGoGadget]

I figured that would be the reaction to my comment.

I think we disagree on philosophy. I never play to lose. I would never want a team to walk on the floor without being 100% intent on winning that game.

When a team decides it's a loser, you lose more than games. You lose everyone. You lose players, coaches, GM's and fans. You lose everything. As long as there's an opportunity to win a game, you MUST play to win that game. IMHO.

Garcia can get minutes in garbage time or in the 2nd quarter. But he should never be on the floor in the 4th quarter of a game we are still in.

I think there is, or should be, a distinction here between the team and the organization.

The team should, at all times, compete with the goal and intention of winning the game. Always. Without fail.

The organization, however... it's their responsibility to know when you reach the point that winning big in the future is more important than winning little in the present, and should act accordingly.

You'll lose the respect and loyalty of your players if it looks as though you're trying to lose. That much is true. But it's also hard to keep them if it doesn't look as though you're trying to win it all. And, I guarantee you, the lack of fire that has been evident from this team on several occasions this year isn't from a fear that they'll go 20-62 all season as much as it is from the knowledge that even if they win 50, they'll be out in the first round of the playoffs.

 

[tyrant]

Starter on a lottery team my ***.

he certainly isnt a starter on a winning team

 

[VF21]

The organization, however... it's their responsibility to know when you reach the point that winning big in the future is more important than winning little in the present, and should act accordingly.

Ah, but the real question is what IS "act accordingly"?

You'll lose the respect and loyalty of your players if it looks as though you're trying to lose. That much is true. But it's also hard to keep them if it doesn't look as though you're trying to win it all. And, I guarantee you, the lack of fire that has been evident from this team on several occasions this year isn't from a fear that they'll go 20-62 all season as much as it is from the knowledge that even if they win 50, they'll be out in the first round of the playoffs.

I have to disagree, at least in part. I don't think the team is thinking "Well, even if we win this game we're gonna flush out in the first round of the playoffs." That's generally more a fan viewpoint than a player's.

I think there are forces at work here that we know little to nothing about; I'm in the camp of where there's smoke you have to at least consider fire. All I know for sure is the team I saw play Denver at least looked like a team. They were communicating with other; the ball was moving well; they had every excuse to lose and yet they won. And yes, I know it was a depleted Denver team, but it was a depleted Denver team on their home court with Iverson playing for them for the first time.

Sometimes there just aren't instant solutions to problems. And sometimes there are solutions but we don't know about them until they're accomplished.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Ah, but the real question is what IS "act accordingly"?

Make the tough decisions. Realize that the ineffective "we're going to wait it out" mantra ain't gonna cut it anymore. We've waited. Whatever's going to happen with this group has happened/is happening. The team, as currently composed, is not going to magically wake up and be dramatically better -- or, at least, not any version of "better" that is worth the months of thumb twiddling.

Trust me on this. I'm not an expert on many things, but I'm very familiar with how to play the ostrich and have 28 1/2 years worth of proof that is not a plan made for success. In life or in basketball. This, what the team has been doing for a couple years now, is settling. Is scraping by. Is surviving. Is, quite frankly, worthy of even less respect/admiration than a dramatic flame out.

I have to disagree, at least in part. I don't think the team is thinking "Well, even if we win this game we're gonna flush out in the first round of the playoffs." That's generally more a fan viewpoint than a player's.

I give the players credit for being a bit more realistic than the average fan (well... maybe not Ron). I'm quite sure they can see the team's weaknesses far more clearly than we can. I think that they should be focused on winning every game, and I think that for the most part they are, but I don't think that any of them have delluded themselves with the idea that they're currently playing for a championship caliber team.

Sometimes there just aren't instant solutions to problems. And sometimes there are solutions but we don't know about them until they're accomplished.

There has to be some sort of movement towards a solution, however, and I've yet to see it. What I've seen would indicate a bigger emphasis on keeping the problem from growing, than on actually solving it.

 

[Entity]

All i know is with all the theories revolving around Artest. Little has been said of the disappearnance of Price. It seems Price maybe on the shopping list with Artest

 

[BMiller52]

All i know is with all the theories revolving around Artest. Little has been said of the disappearnance of Price. It seems Price maybe on the shopping list with Artest

No it doesn't. Why would teams want an undrafted rookie who doesn't get enough time to show what he can do? If we were shopping him we'd be making sure he played a lot to raise his value. Seems to me Muss/Petrie's doing the exact opposite.

 

[Cal-Kings]

...I still believe he has a plan in mind. As I said above, I think it's not knowing that plan that leads some fans to doubt what's going on. I could be wrong, of course, but I am not ready to concede that he's inept, bumbling or a fool.

I agree with this completely.

Unfortunately, there is no time machine available to take us to 2008 and see what's happened. We have to live through all of this...one day at a time. Sometimes it ain't easy being a Kings fan... but if you're a 49er fan, too, you're at least in familiar territory.

The 49ers are in a completely different situation. They changed ownership from an owner who was a lot like the Maloofs to an owner who is more like the guy who owns the Bengals. A cheap businessman who doesn't care about winning, only about not spending up to his salary cap. The 49er suck because their leadership at the top sucks.

IMHO...

 

[Cal-Kings]

I think there is, or should be, a distinction here between the team and the organization.

The team should, at all times, compete with the goal and intention of winning the game. Always. Without fail.

The organization, however... it's their responsibility to know when you reach the point that winning big in the future is more important than winning little in the present, and should act accordingly.

I agree, however if the team gets wind of the ownership's desire to forget winning games for now, then the fans get wind of it, you have a downward spiral that can take you waaaaay down for a loooong time.

You'll lose the respect and loyalty of your players if it looks as though you're trying to lose. That much is true. But it's also hard to keep them if it doesn't look as though you're trying to win it all. And, I guarantee you, the lack of fire that has been evident from this team on several occasions this year isn't from a fear that they'll go 20-62 all season as much as it is from the knowledge that even if they win 50, they'll be out in the first round of the playoffs.

I, honestly, haven't seen a lack of fire. I've seen missed shots, but a lot of effort across the board.

But you are correct, once the team senses what is happening, it doesn't take long to hit bottom.

If you watched the Warriors since Webber and Nellie left, their whole organization from top to bottom to fans was in a deep depression. It took Mully to come back, and even bring Nellie back, to get them some effort again. It's been what, 11 or 12 years??

 

[Jerryaki]

^^^ok, it's been a while. but i have to comment on this.

you're so worried about our team sucking during rebuilding mode, and cite the warriors as reference. when you go into rebuild, you're trying to get better, and the reason that you wouldn't is IF YOUR GM SUCKS. and if that is what's really the case, we're screwed EITHER WAY.

how do you propose this team get better without:

1) developing young players (which you don't want to do because we're "trying to win every game"), or
2) drafting a star (which we can't do because mediocrity is just enough to push us out of the prime drafting spots), or
3) clearing some cap space for a big free agent (because we continue to sign mediocre to sucky veterans with somewhat chunky contracts and we don't trade those contracts for expirings because again we're afraid to "lose games")???

you're going to lose your fan base either way if you stay mired in mediocrity for years, or if you suck for a few. at least with the latter scenario, you have a glimmer of hope, and when you actually start contending again, the franchise will be fine. let's resurrect like phoenix (both as a literal and figurative example) did.

i've been watching the same retooling, win each game, half-a$$ team since we signed ostertag.

 

[Roman]

2) drafting a star (which we can't do because mediocrity is just enough to push us out of the prime drafting spots)

The NBA draft is a crap-shoot more than any other draft.

There is usually one to three sure things and then you're just flying blind. Typically the next big thing is a pick around 10-16 and just happens into the right situation to let them shine.

The draft is and always has been pretty suspect.

I mean, would anyone think Martin was in the teens?

 

[Jerryaki]

The NBA draft is a crap-shoot more than any other draft.

There is usually one to three sure things and then you're just flying blind. Typically the next big thing is a pick around 10-16 and just happens into the right situation to let them shine.

The draft is and always has been pretty suspect.

fine.

can we all at least agree that a 30-45 win team with chemistry issues, aging veterans, kids who don't get enough playing time, and a new coach who has been pretty ineffectual are NOT the right situation for said draft pick to flourish?

 

[Roman]

fine.

can we all at least agree that a 30-45 win team with chemistry issues, aging veterans, kids who don't get enough playing time, and a new coach who has been pretty ineffectual are NOT the right situation for said draft pick to flourish?

Yeah. We can agree to that.

What it seems to me is that there is a regime change and the team is split because of it.

I truly feel that moving Bibby is the right move. But this thread isn't about that.

What you kid do you think should be getting more time? Douby? Garcia? I'm not really sure?

 

[Jerryaki]

garcia and price. garcia needs his confidence back, and needs the chance to make mistakes without being yanked out to do so.

i'm not objecting the kids' playing time exactly, but i am objecting to the notion that we should be afraid to try different things (be they rotation changes our roster shake ups) because we're afraid to lose.we already ARE losing, so let's see what we got to build on for our future.

 

[Cal-Kings]

^^^ok, it's been a while. but i have to comment on this.

you're so worried about our team sucking during rebuilding mode, and cite the warriors as reference. when you go into rebuild, you're trying to get better, and the reason that you wouldn't is IF YOUR GM SUCKS. and if that is what's really the case, we're screwed EITHER WAY.

how do you propose this team get better without:

1) developing young players (which you don't want to do because we're "trying to win every game"), or
2) drafting a star (which we can't do because mediocrity is just enough to push us out of the prime drafting spots), or
3) clearing some cap space for a big free agent (because we continue to sign mediocre to sucky veterans with somewhat chunky contracts and we don't trade those contracts for expirings because again we're afraid to "lose games")???

you're going to lose your fan base either way if you stay mired in mediocrity for years, or if you suck for a few. at least with the latter scenario, you have a glimmer of hope, and when you actually start contending again, the franchise will be fine. let's resurrect like phoenix (both as a literal and figurative example) did.

i've been watching the same retooling, win each game, half-a$$ team since we signed ostertag.

You've not read my posts on this matter, if you are addressing me.

I'm talking about an attitude from the top.

Go ahead, make trades, develop young players, search the draft. Do all that.

Just do it behind the scenes.

Sure, we fans will probably pick up on it. Because fans pick up on all kinds of nonsense. (See various trade rumor threads.) But as long as the top (Maloofs and Petrie) keep saying "WE WANT TO WIN!!" and Petrie keeps his cards close as he always does, than we don't take the risk of that looooong, sloooooow slide to oblivion and stay there for 11-12 years.

As I've speculated, I believe the more public the front office is about "rebuilding" the longer it actually takes to rebuild. Why? Because you have to rebuild everything from the team attitude, the fans support, several new coaches; because that losing attitude penetrates everywhere and it goes deep.

And the Warriors are STILL not back yet.

Maybe it's a shell game, but people want to believe in their team. I feel, as a front office, it's better to keep hope alive as long as possible while working behind the scenes to improve the team.

I also feel this is Petrie's approach anyway.

I could be wrong.

 

[VF21]

I'm talking about an attitude from the top.

Go ahead, make trades, develop young players, search the draft. Do all that.

Just do it behind the scenes.

...I also feel this is Petrie's approach anyway.

I could be wrong.

That's pretty much my take, too, Cal-Kings.

 

[Cal-Kings]

That's pretty much my take, too, Cal-Kings.

Ahah! Then maybe I'm not totally out in left field...

 

[nbrans]

You've not read my posts on this matter, if you are addressing me.

I'm talking about an attitude from the top.

Go ahead, make trades, develop young players, search the draft. Do all that.

Just do it behind the scenes.

Sure, we fans will probably pick up on it. Because fans pick up on all kinds of nonsense. (See various trade rumor threads.) But as long as the top (Maloofs and Petrie) keep saying "WE WANT TO WIN!!" and Petrie keeps his cards close as he always does, than we don't take the risk of that looooong, sloooooow slide to oblivion and stay there for 11-12 years.

As I've speculated, I believe the more public the front office is about "rebuilding" the longer it actually takes to rebuild. Why? Because you have to rebuild everything from the team attitude, the fans support, several new coaches; because that losing attitude penetrates everywhere and it goes deep.

And the Warriors are STILL not back yet.

Maybe it's a shell game, but people want to believe in their team. I feel, as a front office, it's better to keep hope alive as long as possible while working behind the scenes to improve the team.

I also feel this is Petrie's approach anyway.

I could be wrong.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.