Jimmer's stats in comparison to the rest of the team: Facts Can't Be Denied

[bajaden]

Baja, you are very grumpy lately! It's probably because the Kings are 4-10 and look terrible right now! You need to relax...maybe go fishing, drink lots of beers, etc.!!

Naw, I'm not feeling grumpy at all. They say that as you get older it becomes harder to suffer fools. Before anyone takes umbrage with that statement, I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular. Now if the shoe fits, have at it. Anyway, I just happen to think these constant threads praising Jimmer are ridiculous, and I'm a big fan of Jimmers. So I have to think that either the poster is living in a bubble or he's a troll, or he's a she and happens to be Jimmer's girlfriend.

Now I will admit that my wife has been sick, and so is my favorite dog, who I just took to the vet. And while your advice is good, and I'll certainly take it into consideration, I can assure you that the Kings record has nothing to do with my mood. Especially when I have people like you to cheer me up with all your optimism....

 

[Svidza]

Jimmer is rookie and indeed trying to do his best, but in terms of performance hes right there with Salmons.

In defense he constantly leaves too much space for opposing pgs and periodically gets lost in rotations(like most of this team).
Offensively hes willing passer but he just passes to whoever he sees available first, he cant break defenses to create open positions for others to score. In every play where he gets to handle the ball, the moment he faces opposing guard he has to protect ball with his back and doing that you cant create plays for team as pg, u can just pass ball to random player who's available for pass.
As scorer hes probably in shooting slump but aside from that he should be getting 5-6 3pt attempts every single game just staying in corner and catch and shoot from evans but hes never there in position.

 

[Bricklayer]

Jimmer is rookie and indeed trying to do his best, but in terms of performance hes right there with Salmons.

In defense he constantly leaves too much space for opposing pgs and periodically gets lost in rotations(like most of this team).
Offensively hes willing passer but he just passes to whoever he sees available first, he cant break defenses to create open positions for others to score. In every play where he gets to handle the ball, the moment he faces opposing guard he has to protect ball with his back and doing that you cant create plays for team as pg, u can just pass ball to random player who's available for pass.
As scorer hes probably in shooting slump but aside from that he should be getting 5-6 3pt attempts every single game just staying in corner and catch and shoot from evans but hes never there in position.

I agree that's the best spot to take advantage of Reke's peentrating abilities but I have a little question there for Jimmer: as his team's main ballhandler in college and the guy who brought it up and played up top, how often was he actually in the corner to shoot in college? Let alone catch and shoot? That shot, with no backboard in the bckground is kind of an art of its own. As its the shortest distance three on the court and closer to the college distance than any other I have no doubt its within Jimmer's range, but I do wonder if that's a natural/comfortaeel place for him to set up and shoot at this stage of his career.

 

[AleksandarN]

3) Points Per Game: 7.6 (5th)



5) Assists Per Game: 2.1 (2nd)


7) FG%: 34.5% (Team Average: 39.6%)

8) 3P%: 28.3 (3rd)

Thanks. Now I am depressed that Jimmer ranked that high given his numbers

 

[bajaden]

I agree that's the best spot to take advantage of Reke's peentrating abilities but I have a little question there for Jimmer: as his team's main ballhandler in college and the guy who brought it up and played up top, how often was he actually in the corner to shoot in college? Let alone catch and shoot? That shot, with no backboard in the bckground is kind of an art of its own. As its the shortest distance three on the court and closer to the college distance than any other I have no doubt its within Jimmer's range, but I do wonder if that's a natural/comfortaeel place for him to set up and shoot at this stage of his career.

He didn't have any trouble with that shot in college. I just think he's in a slump right now. As for as spot up shooting, he actually didn't do much of it in college because no one ever left him alone long enough for him to have an open spot up. Almost all of his shots in college were contested, and most of his open shot were off the dribble as he was bringing up the ball and when the defender hadn't moved up to defend him yet. and I'm talking about 35 and 40 footers. The irony here is that he's actually getting better looks than he did in college and he's missing.

To be honest, he's playing entirely different than he did at BYU. I don't know if thats by design, or it just him trying to fit in with a bunch of scorers. But I think he has to throw it all out the window, be his aggressive self, and let the chips fall where they may. He had a cockiness about him in college that I don't see yet. Its certainly not about pressure, because I doubt any player in college had more pressure on him than Fredette did last year.

 

[ArcoKings]

Lots of grumpy people on this forum. I posted facts and remained respectful.

And all I get are subjective, opinionated (non-factual) responses and personal attacks.

You guys are one angry angry bunch!

That's because losing is getting old and it hurts watching other teams improve while our Kings take two steps backwards.

FWIW, this is still a young season. The Kings have played 14 games and 3 'pre-season' games. There was not a REAL preseason and there was no Las Vegas Summer League for Jimmer to get a feel of the NBA. He is doing it during official games. Also, a few weeks into this season the Kings have had a coaching change which equals a new system that is trying to be implemented during a tight schedule with only small pockets of practice time. We all expected Jimmer to play better and his stats prove that he's not living up to expectations. Its a tough position for coach. Does he bring in IA and take away PT from Jimmer who needs more PT to gain experience or does he put in Jimmer knowing that right now IA brings more to the table? Tough call but there needs to be balance as others here have implied and all of this while the rest of the team is sucking badly. Jimmer needs MORE time to feel more comfortable. These are bad times we're going through as fans.

 

[rainmaker]

I will disagree just to this degree: we've been getting 23 minutes of near nothing from Jimmer a night. That's a ton of empty minutes and its really hurt us, espically when compared to what we were getting from Beno, the man he effectively replaced. There are certainly myriad other problems, but Jimmer's inability to make the jump to the NBA yet is definitely one of them.

An interesting question is what the organization's priorities are for the remainder of this season. For the last couple of years its been player development. And when you go out in the offseason and get even younger so that you are now the youngest team in the league, that would certainly suggest more player development as a possibility. But I get a feeling they want to win, have pressure to win, the fans want to win, and in general they need to see results. And where we are on that line has significance for Jimmer, because up until this point we have largely played him as if we are still in player development mode. Lots of minutes, even if they are empty, just to try to get him experience. But if we are in win mode then Jimmer has not earned his minutes, and as I showed in some stats above is actually producing at pretty much the same rate Quincy Douby did as a rookie. Until he figures it out, on a team trying to win those Douby type minutes are the sorts of minutes he would normally be getting -- the blowout minutes, maybe spotted in for a quarter ending play here or there where we neeeded shooting etc. He would be closer to a 10min a game spot player than the major rotation player he's been playing until this point, and try to get him experience and confidence in garbage minutes after games have been deciuded rather than right in the middle of games we are still trying to win. Be interesting to see what our priorities are here.

I agree Jimmer not playing well is part of the problem, I just take umbrage to those who think he is the problem, or the solution, while ignoring the rest of the trainwreck, which must be quite tough to do.

As for are we in win now mode or development, it's hard to say. Why I say that, is that I believe we were in win now mode heading into the season, but the moves we've made have blown up in our face. So does the current situation, cause us for the time being to move back into a development mode?

While this organization may have intended on putting a premium on winning this year, the moves they've made negate that. Can't tell me we're in win now mode with Salmons in the starting lineup, and absolutely zero depth or height on our frontline, and if it wasn't for the 60th pick in the draft playing above expectations, we'd be s*** out of luck in terms of a backup point. You don't bring in Salmons and Outlaw if you;re serious about winning, nor do you retain the mess which was Westy. At the same time, you don't bring in Salmons and Outlaw for a team intent on development.

I'd say we're heading quickly towards development mode, where Jimmer and IT will still get decent minutes, but it was by accident. Our pee poor FO/Maloofs made such poor moves this past summer, and made a poor decision it retaining Westy, that we're heading towards "just get the rooks experience" time by default.

Of course we could make a move or two before the deadline, but that'll be too little too late.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

The only reason some people are so hard on Jimmer is because he had so much hype coming out of college. When you have that kind of hype surrounding you you'll inevitably have lots of folks actively rooting for you to fail and those folks will be there to pounce on you and blow it out of proportion every time you do fail. It's a basic hater/backlash mentality.

 

[sanho]

I agree that's the best spot to take advantage of Reke's peentrating abilities but I have a little question there for Jimmer: as his team's main ballhandler in college and the guy who brought it up and played up top, how often was he actually in the corner to shoot in college? Let alone catch and shoot? That shot, with no backboard in the bckground is kind of an art of its own. As its the shortest distance three on the court and closer to the college distance than any other I have no doubt its within Jimmer's range, but I do wonder if that's a natural/comfortaeel place for him to set up and shoot at this stage of his career.

He rarely shot from the baseline in college

 

[Bricklayer]

The only reason some people are so hard on Jimmer is because he had so much hype coming out of college. When you have that kind of hype surrounding you you'll inevitably have lots of folks actively rooting for you to fail and those folks will be there to pounce on you and blow it out of proportion every time you do fail. It's a basic hater/backlash mentality.

Him actually having sucked thus far might have somethign to do with it too.

Then isn't the Reke putting up numbers but the haters won't acknowledge it bit, not yet at least. Right now the shooting .345, which is tied for 331st in the league is making it fairly easy. Under no standards but Italics' is he getting it done. We'll be able to tell who is a hater and who is just being a steely eyed realist by who falls out where if Jimmer eventually figures it out and starts contributing.

 

[Bricklayer]

He rarely shot from the baseline in college

Would have been my guess. As a good distance shooter sure its something he can handle, but it just may not be a place where he's comfortable yet. Having coaches who actually tell him where to be would be helpful.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Him actually having sucked thus far might have somethign to do with it too.

Then isn't the Reke putting up numbers but the haters won't acknowledge it bit, not yet at least. Right now the shooting .345, which is tied for 331st in the league is making it fairly easy. Under no standards but Italics' is he getting it done. We'll be able to tell who is a hater and who is just being a steely eyed realist by who falls out where if Jimmer eventually figures it out and starts contributing.

I don't think it's accurate to say he's sucked, though. He's been underwhelming, mediocre, disappointing etc. so far but he hasn't flat out sucked. He's actually one of the few players on the team who has any value when his shot isn't falling because he won't just keep selfishly jacking it up ad infinitum, he actually will find and set up teammates. So far he's showed to have one of the highest basketball IQs on the team (not that that's saying much) his shot just isn't there yet. Even still, he looks like an all star compared to some other guys on the team.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't think it's accurate to say he's sucked, though. He's been underwhelming, mediocre, disappointing etc. so far but he hasn't flat out sucked. He's actually one of the few players on the team who has any value when his shot isn't falling because he won't just keep selfishly jacking it up ad infinitum, he actually will find and set up teammates. So far he's showed to have one of the highest basketball IQs on the team (not that that's saying much) his shot just isn't there yet. Even still, he looks like an all star compared to some other guys on the team.

As I pointed out earlier inthis thread, he's basically producing at the same rate as Quincy Douby.

Hence, he's sucked.

To put a statistical pin that, I don't like combined stats as a rule because they mush things together and if they are a formula, that's one guy's version of what's important, and I don't care about one guy's opinion. But rather than go through all the individual stats again, let me just use this one. Jimmer is 55th out of 64 rookies right now in Efficiency Rating/48. He's just miles behind all the other rookie guards taken in the lottery, the Knights, Walkers, Irvings even Shumperts. I'm not going to completely write him off, but if anything people still dazzled by the college hype are not being realistic about what we have seen so far. Hasn't been good.

 

[Lockehead]

As I pointed out earlier inthis thread, he's basically producing at the same rate as Quincy Douby.

Hence, he's sucked.

To put a statistical pin that, I don't like combined stats as a rule because they mush things together and if they are a formula, that's one guy's version of what's important, and I don't care about one guy's opinion. But rather than go through all the individual stats again, let me just use this one. Jimmer is 55th out of 64 rookies right now in Efficiency Rating/48. He's just miles behind all the other rookie guards taken in the lottery, the Knights, Walkers, Irvings even Shumperts. I'm not going to completely write him off, but if anything people still dazzled by the college hype are not being realistic about what we have seen so far. Hasn't been good.

What about the things the stats dont show?

The kings have problems with stagnancy, too much one on one play, lack of passing and other things. Jimmer's a guy whos trying to help us avoid and overcome those problems by moving the ball, and encouraging the others to move without the ball. Where does that show up in the statline? Maybe less points due to him not always looking for his own shot, and maybe more turnovers due to him getting himself in sticky situations trying to set up others. Not really a bad thing because he's a rookie and he'll most likely grow out of it. But the point is there are things statsdont show. And in the end, a player is judged by how much he helps his team to win. The win is all that matters. I think Jimmers a guy who gives our chance a better chance at winning than losing, even if the stats dont show it.

 

[Bricklayer]

What about the things the stats dont show?

The kings have problems with stagnancy, too much one on one play, lack of passing and other things. Jimmer's a guy whos trying to help us avoid and overcome those problems by moving the ball, and encouraging the others to move without the ball. Where does that show up in the statline? Maybe less points due to him not always looking for his own shot, and maybe more turnovers due to him getting himself in sticky situations trying to set up others. Not really a bad thing because he's a rookie and he'll most likely grow out of it. But the point is there are things statsdont show. And in the end, a player is judged by how much he helps his team to win. The win is all that matters. I think Jimmers a guy who gives our chance a better chance at winning than losing, even if the stats dont show it.

And on that front I would point you to the +/- stats over in my stats thread where I think Jimmer has the worst number on the team.

 

[Italics]

As I pointed out earlier inthis thread, he's basically producing at the same rate as Quincy Douby.

Hence, he's sucked.

To put a statistical pin that, I don't like combined stats as a rule because they mush things together and if they are a formula, that's one guy's version of what's important, and I don't care about one guy's opinion. But rather than go through all the individual stats again, let me just use this one. Jimmer is 55th out of 64 rookies right now in Efficiency Rating/48. He's just miles behind all the other rookie guards taken in the lottery, the Knights, Walkers, Irvings even Shumperts. I'm not going to completely write him off, but if anything people still dazzled by the college hype are not being realistic about what we have seen so far. Hasn't been good.

Do you think that all of those players are better than him, or that maybe most of those players got put on teams much better than the Kings, and with less selfish players? Scoring on an offense that isn't "really" an offense is pretty tough.

Now... are Jimmer's bottom-tier teammates fully to blame for his short-comings? No. But put him on a better team and I think we'd see more games from him like we did during the pre-season.

 

[Italics]

And on that front I would point you to the +/- stats over in my stats thread where I think Jimmer has the worst number on the team.

Well, this post seals the deal: You don't have an objective bone in your body.

Earlier this season, when Jimmer's +/- was consistently the best on the team, I pointed this out, and you (along with several others) were quick to tell me (and others) how useless of a stat +/- is and how foolish we were for using it.

And now you drop this gem. You're either a hypocrite, or you just contain absolutely zero ability to hold a worthwhile discussion on sports.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

Do you think that all of those players are better than him, or that maybe most of those players got put on teams much better than the Kings, and with less selfish players? Scoring on an offense that isn't "really" an offense is pretty tough.

Now... are Jimmer's bottom-tier teammates fully to blame for his short-comings? No. But put him on a better team and I think we'd see more games from him like we did during the pre-season.

Ball don't lie. As of right now, they are better than him. 99.5% sure that will change if and when (hopefully soon) Fredette hits his stride and gets his confidence or whatever is throwing him off in line.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

Well, this post seals the deal: You don't have an objective bone in your body.

Earlier this season, when Jimmer's +/- was consistently the best on the team, I pointed this out, and you (along with several others) were quick to tell me (and others) how useless of a stat +/- is and how foolish we were for using it.

And now you drop this gem. The fact that he's not the worst on the team doesn't even matter... you're either a hypocrite, or you just contain absolutely zero ability to hold a worthwhile discussion on sports.

And to point out, even when Jimmer's +/- numbers are positive, say the last game, what was he, +8? He's still severely underperforming. I mean maybe sucking a little less than the rest of the team, but in that game he was 3/7 and 0/3 from 3. Not good, and certainly not what we were expecting from such a prolific scorer in college.

 

[VF21]

Well, this post seals the deal: You don't have an objective bone in your body.

Earlier this season, when Jimmer's +/- was consistently the best on the team, I pointed this out, and you (along with several others) were quick to tell me (and others) how useless of a stat +/- is and how foolish we were for using it.

And now you drop this gem. You're either a hypocrite, or you just contain absolutely zero ability to hold a worthwhile discussion on sports.

Heheheheh...

Sorry, but you crack me up.

Dude, I was/am a big fan of Jimmer Fredette. And even I, who has been known over the years to champion players with every ounce of my being (read some of my old posts about Kevin Martin for example), have to agree with Brick's assessment of Jimmer at the current time. He is not playing up to his potential, he looks scared and confused and at times he actually has a "deer in the headlights" look I would never have thought possible.

Personally, I think it's rookie jitters, combined with the new coach, the carryover effects of the lockout and who knows what else. He'll settle down and be fine, but to act as though he's surrounded by doofi who are cramping his style is naive.

 

[Lockehead]

And on that front I would point you to the +/- stats over in my stats thread where I think Jimmer has the worst number on the team.

That's the point. When i watch Jimmer on the court, he doesn't appear to be doing our team a disservice with his gameplay. He's not perfect of course, but his game right now gives the Kings some of what they need in order to win games. He does some of the things that our team is desperately lacking - moves the ball, tries to get other players involved and such - which are steps in the right direction IMO.

 

[Kingster]

JJ Redick's shooting in his first 15 games of his NBA career:

39.7% 2 pt variety
40% for 3 pt shots

Jimmer after 15 games:

33.3% 2 pt. variety
27.8% 3 pt variety

I recall Redick had some major issues hitting open shots in his rookie year, despite being a very good outside shooter in college. Jimmer is having a worse time of it. Of course Jimmer isn't playing with Howard either.

 

[mac]

That's the point. When i watch Jimmer on the court, he doesn't appear to be doing our team a disservice with his gameplay. He's not perfect of course, but his game right now gives the Kings some of what they need in order to win games. He does some of the things that our team is desperately lacking - moves the ball, tries to get other players involved and such - which are steps in the right direction IMO.

Agree with the last line. The thing is, Jimmer is actually doing fine for a rookie. The problem is, right now he's our first guard off the bench, and in comparison to Thomas really hasn't brought much of an impact. Remember, we brought Jimmer in to replace Beno, and that's why it's looking so bad at the moment, because we simply can't afford to have him struggle shooting and on defense as much as he has. If he was just getting a couple of minutes here and there it would be perfectly fine for him to miss 1 or 2 shots and spend the rest of the time trying to set guys up, but as it is we need him out there as an outside shooter. Defensively not much can be said other than the fact that we're talking about a guy who barely played D throughout college and is still getting used to the league, playing on a team that isn't exactly known for its shutdown defense.

I have no doubt that given time Jimmer will be a fine player for us. We just can't afford to have him play 20+ min a game and give us the "production" that he has though, over Thomas or Garcia who have given us more.

 

[funkykingston]

Now... are Jimmer's bottom-tier teammates fully to blame for his short-comings? No. But put him on a better team and I think we'd see more games from him like we did during the pre-season.

The other side of that argument is that if Jimmer were playing on a better team and shooting & defending the way he has so far this season he wouldn't see any PT at all.

It's a bit of a disingenuous line of thinking to say that Jimmer isn't shooting/scoring as expected because he has poor teammates. This team is one of the WORST shooting teams in the NBA. You don't think if Fredette started hitting shots and putting up numbers that his teammates would feed him the ball? Other guys playing selfishly (and yes, they often absolutely have been) doesn't change the fact that Jimmer is not doing the ONE thing we were all sure he could do and that's shoot the ball at a good clip.

I watched Jimmer quite a bit at BYU and I know what kind of shot maker he is and that's why I'm surprised at his struggles in the NBA. I thought he'd have difficulties defending and adjusting to being a role player vs being the go to guy and main scorer but I didn't expect him to flounder as he has so far. That said, I don't forsee an Adam Morrison like flame out from Jimmer. I think he'll regain his confidence and touch and go on to be a player somewhere between Brent Price and Eddie House. But right now he is not showing that he belongs in the NBA.

It isn't his teammates' job to set Jimmer up and worry about making him successful. It's Fredette's job to earn their trust by playing at the high level that we saw from him in college. His resume from BYU shouldn't guarantee him minutes OR touches if he's not getting it done on the floor. He's rightfully losing playing time to Isaiah Thomas and if he wants to start showing he deserves PT he needs to take the scant minutes he IS given and show the team and coaches something in those opportunities.

I'm still rooting for him but if we're actually talking about being objective, we have to realize that he's not helping this team or his future NBA prospects with his play right now.

 

[Posta Boy X]

Mr. Slim Jim Fredette will be fine!

He just hasn't gotten into the flow of the league yet, but he will get there very soon. Give him a little time. He will at the very least be a very good shooter once he feels comfortable on the court.

The Kings have basically been a MESS so far this season so I can't blame Jimstickles for the slow start.

Might never become a star but could very well be an extremely important role player on this team.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Well, this post seals the deal: You don't have an objective bone in your body.

Earlier this season, when Jimmer's +/- was consistently the best on the team, I pointed this out, and you (along with several others) were quick to tell me (and others) how useless of a stat +/- is and how foolish we were for using it.

And now you drop this gem. You're either a hypocrite, or you just contain absolutely zero ability to hold a worthwhile discussion on sports.

I think +/- is a fairly worthless stat in basketball, but Brick's point stands in context. Which you have omitted entirely.

 

[Tetsujin]

Well, this post seals the deal: You don't have an objective bone in your body.

Earlier this season, when Jimmer's +/- was consistently the best on the team, I pointed this out, and you (along with several others) were quick to tell me (and others) how useless of a stat +/- is and how foolish we were for using it.

And now you drop this gem. You're either a hypocrite, or you just contain absolutely zero ability to hold a worthwhile discussion on sports.

...irony

 

[Spike]

...irony

It's like 1000 spoons, when all you need is a knife.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

It's like 1000 spoons, when all you need is a knife.

I'm pretty sure in this case that it's the good advice that he just didn't take.

 

[Posta Boy X]

I'm pretty sure in this case that it's the good advice that he just didn't take.

Co-sign this thoughtful, beautiful, and powerful post. Agreed!