eastcoastking
Prospect
kinda like how NJ tanked their way all the way to game 6 in the second round last year.
kinda like how NJ tanked their way all the way to game 6 in the second round last year.
Jespher
Starter
Kevin is a young guy too, who is seeing some serious improvement in his game. He set a franchise record for consecutive free throws made in a game last night. Do you really want him to get less minutes so Quincy Douby can play? Douby isn't a point guard!!! Kevin cannot guard the 3 position...You do the math.
This is the NBA, not the NBDL. Players play if they have game to contribute at that time. Sheldon and Quincy have flaws in their games so they can only see limited minutes as the circumstances favor them. Hawes was a terrible defender earlier this year, (with a terrific offensive game) so he didn't get many minutes. He practiced, and proved he could defend in practice, and now he is getting more game time.
This is the NBA, not the NBDL. Players play if they have game to contribute at that time. Sheldon and Quincy have flaws in their games so they can only see limited minutes as the circumstances favor them. Hawes was a terrible defender earlier this year, (with a terrific offensive game) so he didn't get many minutes. He practiced, and proved he could defend in practice, and now he is getting more game time.
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You act like guys like douby and williams dont want to win or something when they play. Yes, people pay to see effort, but with the PO out of range I prefer to see the kids giving the effort. And yes, I was at the game last night, while I was happy with the win, I actually came to see Hawes and Williams and the younger guys play.
It's the east coast. Need I say more?
Well, we're definitely not looking for discernible progress if we don't want to play above .500 teams more than once a season. Improvement vs. better teams as the season winds down? Nah.
If Douby and Williams were lighting it up in practice, they WOULD be playing. If Douby wasn't a SG he'd probably get some PT. Coaches see more than we do. All we see is game time. Conspire all you like, but there is NO COACH that would rightfully decline minutes from a promising young player who is showing potential. I'm guessing Theus isn't seeing much from those two.
S
sactownfan
Guest
Ok lets get this straight.... Im not down with just tanking..... but as flawed as S.Williams, Hawes, or Douby are...this is the time of year where we can play them and see if they can contribute with steady mins. And..... if we lose games because were allowing are youth to play,get comfortable and grow.... then i dont mind losing... obviously they dont just get mins... they would have to give 100%...
alot of players need to have steady mins guaranteed... to a point... so that they are able to go out and not feel like they have to force things or show the world why they were drafted. Hawes did it at the beginning of the year as did K-Mart and Garcia when they were hardly getting mins. theres a big difference between practice and games. Let them learn and adjust.
We got nothing to lose as long as Douby, S.Williams and Hawes play hard, put them in! and if we lose and move up a spot or two in the draft then obviously that doesnt hurt.
alot of players need to have steady mins guaranteed... to a point... so that they are able to go out and not feel like they have to force things or show the world why they were drafted. Hawes did it at the beginning of the year as did K-Mart and Garcia when they were hardly getting mins. theres a big difference between practice and games. Let them learn and adjust.
We got nothing to lose as long as Douby, S.Williams and Hawes play hard, put them in! and if we lose and move up a spot or two in the draft then obviously that doesnt hurt.
S
sactownfan
Guest
Wow Phil Jackson? Larry Brown? these guys have both benched great young players for no reason other than they dont like playing young guys.
When we make the playoffs again or win a championship then not playing the kids will be a-ok with me. but playing guys when all is lost is lame.
No, I don't believe I've EVER said I don't think Douby or Shelden Williams want to win.
Please define "kids". I'm getting totally confused because I did the play-by-play and the only "kid" I didn't see get any time was Shelden Williams, who is still a pretty big question mark to Kings fans.
Douby was out there and looked - in a word - bad. Martin? 36 points. Garcia? Good minutes. Hawes - looking real good until he walked off the court, straight through the tunnel and into the locker room in the first half, having tweaked his ankle when he came down on it and rolled it. Udrih? Is he a kid? Well, he didn't play because of the back strain.
So just what "kids" aren't getting minutes? If this is all about Shelden Williams, I have to say I don't think Shelden Williams is the future PF for our Kings. If he's not getting minutes, it could easily be the decision has already been made that he won't be returning. Or it could be a myriad of other things. We just don't know.
So once again, please tell me what younger guys you're talking about.
DOUBY played, just not very well and he made some ciritical defensive errors that probably were why he was sent to the bench. Reggie has been consistent in that to a fault this year, even sitting Martin down at times.
HAWES played until he was injured and might easily have seen considerable minutes.
WILLIAMS was the only "kid" who didn't step on the court. So if this is just about Shelden Williams, please say so.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Here, BTW, is the depth of our stupidity:
Spenser
Rookie Minutes rank: 32nd
Spenser Hawes was a lottery pick, the #10 pick in the draft this year. He is 32nd amongst rookie in minutes a game. There are 31 rookies who have gotten more time than him. And they play for good teams (Scola in Houston, Julian Wright in New Orleans, Rodney Stuckey in Detroit etc.) and bad (take your pick). Notorious anti-rookie coach Rick Adelman (according to local folklore) has THREE rookies averaging more minutes than Spenser, and a 4th (Aaron Brooks) just a tic behind.
Spenser has gotten the second least minutes of any rookie picked in the lottery -- with the only one beneath him being Brandon Wright, playing for a team fightting for their playoff lives. Of the Top 20 draft picks, only Wright and Bellinelli (the other Golden State rook) have gotten less time. Maybe its a Northern California thing.
Sheldon
Sophomore Minutes Rank: 39th (Sacto avg)
Sheldon Williams was the #5 pick in the draft last year. This season, after trading the best PG in franchise history for a package including him, he is averaging 8.4 minutes a game in Sacramento, which ranks 39th in the NBA amongst 2nd year players. He has gotten those minutes despite his entire time with the team having come after most rational observers knew that there would be no playoffs. He is apparently pinned to the bench by a 32yr old journeyman with career averages of 6pts and 4rebs playing for his 8th NBA team in 10 years.
Douby
Sophomore Minutes Rank: 31st
And averaging fewer minutes in March, after we have been out of playoff contention, than he has on the season, largely because he has now been pinned ot the bench by a 33yr old journeyman with career averages of 5.7pts and 3.0ast playing for his 7th NBA team in 11 years.
We ain't playing them. And the rotating excuses of the week for why are very tired. Either we have incredibly crappy talent evaluation, or we have incredibly crappy judgement and acumen amongst our "leaders". This is NOT how its done. Just ask any of the other 29 teams out there (okay 28 -- not Nellie) actually playing their young guys on the wacky theory that they get better that way while you evaluate them. Of course we have more important things to do than all of those other teams of course. Like pull ourselves within a mere 7 games of .500. Nifty.
Spenser
Rookie Minutes rank: 32nd
Spenser Hawes was a lottery pick, the #10 pick in the draft this year. He is 32nd amongst rookie in minutes a game. There are 31 rookies who have gotten more time than him. And they play for good teams (Scola in Houston, Julian Wright in New Orleans, Rodney Stuckey in Detroit etc.) and bad (take your pick). Notorious anti-rookie coach Rick Adelman (according to local folklore) has THREE rookies averaging more minutes than Spenser, and a 4th (Aaron Brooks) just a tic behind.
Spenser has gotten the second least minutes of any rookie picked in the lottery -- with the only one beneath him being Brandon Wright, playing for a team fightting for their playoff lives. Of the Top 20 draft picks, only Wright and Bellinelli (the other Golden State rook) have gotten less time. Maybe its a Northern California thing.
Sheldon
Sophomore Minutes Rank: 39th (Sacto avg)
Sheldon Williams was the #5 pick in the draft last year. This season, after trading the best PG in franchise history for a package including him, he is averaging 8.4 minutes a game in Sacramento, which ranks 39th in the NBA amongst 2nd year players. He has gotten those minutes despite his entire time with the team having come after most rational observers knew that there would be no playoffs. He is apparently pinned to the bench by a 32yr old journeyman with career averages of 6pts and 4rebs playing for his 8th NBA team in 10 years.
Douby
Sophomore Minutes Rank: 31st
And averaging fewer minutes in March, after we have been out of playoff contention, than he has on the season, largely because he has now been pinned ot the bench by a 33yr old journeyman with career averages of 5.7pts and 3.0ast playing for his 7th NBA team in 11 years.
We ain't playing them. And the rotating excuses of the week for why are very tired. Either we have incredibly crappy talent evaluation, or we have incredibly crappy judgement and acumen amongst our "leaders". This is NOT how its done. Just ask any of the other 29 teams out there (okay 28 -- not Nellie) actually playing their young guys on the wacky theory that they get better that way while you evaluate them. Of course we have more important things to do than all of those other teams of course. Like pull ourselves within a mere 7 games of .500. Nifty.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
I'm a little confused. Brown is one of the all time great teachers of basketball. He's strict and very disclipined, but not against playing young players. Jackson has always played young players, so I'm not sure who your talking about.
I have a question for you. Are you a season ticket holder? Do you go to many games. I was a season ticket holder for the better part of 10 years. I knew just about everyone in my section over the years, and I can guarantee you that none of us went to games hoping the team would lose. AND, if I thought the team was trying to lose, no matter how cleverly they tried to hide it, I would have canceled my season tickets. When I fork out a couple of hundred dollars a game, I don't want to see a bunch of players out there that don't have a chance of winning. I do want to see young players developed. But in a way that they have the best chance to succeed and not destroy their confidence.
Gary is absolutely correct about the draft this year. Its not going to make very much difference whether we draft 10th or 12th. If we can't get into the top 3 or 4, its pretty much a crap shoot after that. We'll still get a good player.
By the way. Don't tell me you don't want to lose, but if we happen to lose because were playing the young guys, your alright with it. Bottom line is you want to lose. I wouldn't want you on my team..
Kingzrool
Starter
I love how you think the fans opinions are going to trump the guys that sign his paycheck, who ALSO want to win. Approve or disapprove, you cn't put this on Reggie, I am sure he has been directed to win as many games as possible.
Think it about it from a marketing perspective. Losing to the Grizzlies at Arco hurts ticket sales period.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
What a load of hooey. Give me your 10 year span, because here is what is going to come out of it:
1) if it was in the bad ole days...you know what? There was a REASON they were the bad ole days. And part of it is because we were terminally stupid and never put ourselves in position to draft the studs that could have turned it for us.
2) If it was the bad ole days almost every single year we had a rookie logging major minutes. Almost evey year (except when we traded for Mitch). You are setting up a straw man -- if its the bad ole days you were already watching the young guys play -- they were rotation players. Whether it be Lionel, or Wizard or Kenny Smith or Ricky Berry or Brian Grant or whoever you want, they played. Hell, many of them started.
3) Our one and only reanaissance as a franchise occured precisely after the one year when we finally grew up and played the system -- we did not try to win in '98. We intentionally loaded up on expiring contracts, did not sign other FAs because we wanted cap room, started a rookie 2nd round draft pick at PG (none other than Anthony Johnson) and another at center (Yogi)took a huge dive down the stretch of the season losing somehting like 25 of 29 or some such. And were richly rewarded for it for the next half dozen years of winning and contention. This is the cycle of the league. If you were a fan during that time it happened right under your nose. If you cancelled after that season and never returned, that was your loss. The dues were paid, you never collected the reward.
4) If your time was during the golden era than any and all rooting and lessons learned during that time are completely inapplicable to the current situation, and you likely know it.
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Entity
Hall of Famer
I reinterate. We are playing the young guys that matter (Hawes, Garcia, Beno, Martin) Anybody after that is trade fodder and/or DL candidates. Don't confuse Douby and Williams with great young prospects. At best they may make a 4-7 year career as the 11th or 12th guys off the bench. Don't hide the fact that you want the kings to tank by saying you want them to play the kids. If you honestly think Douby and Williams are a large part of the kings franchise down the road then I would imagine you will be more than happy with who we draft at the 12th spot because surely they will be better than those 2 guys.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Anyone who is showing up to that game of all games will likely be back. And there are all of seven games left on the home scedule. One of them against the Lakers which will pretty much sell out anyway. How big of a hit could you possibly see? The offseason will determine everything when it comes to tickets. If you are hurting the offseason and next years team for the sake of this last dreary month that takes shortsightedness to a new level. Whether to pin that on Reggie or the Maloofs is always open to question, but every time Reggie opens his mouth on the topic he sounds more deluded, so unless he is just a Maloof mouthpiece the coach is involved.
Entity
Hall of Famer
Hey Brick what you feel is a best case scnerio for the offseason. For that matter I would like your opinion on a best case, worst case and even something in the middle say like something that is not quite there yet but, moving in the right direction.
The reason I ask you to do something like that is I know you won't post something stupid like trade Brad Miller for Amare and Ron Artest for Yao and KT and SAR for KG.
The reason I ask you to do something like that is I know you won't post something stupid like trade Brad Miller for Amare and Ron Artest for Yao and KT and SAR for KG.
I was at the airport the other day, and a Russian dude sat next to me. He wouldn't turn off his cell phone. The flight attendant asked him to turn it off. He didn't understand, so she SAID EACH WORD SLOWLY AND LOUDLY. Obviously, that didn't help. Then she started speaking in Spanish. Again, more confusion. If you understood Spanish, you'd know that he wasn't speaking it.
Reggie, for all his faults, is learning to be an NBA coach. Maybe in the future, he might see the big picture. I don't think he sees it right now, as to him, each game is as important as the next. For that, I cannot fault him. Mikki is healthy, Mikki is positive, Mikki will play. Shelden will not.
Although Bricky's stats are pretty discouraging, I'd like to see how they trend towards the last month, as opposed to the year as a whole. I'd bet the minutes would lean more towards the average (of rookie minutes played) for Hawes.
Pretty misleading, considering he's been playing more lately. AND would have played significant minutes, I believe, had he not left the game right at the end of the first quarter and not returned.
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Ryle
Starter
I'm a season ticket holder for the past 8 years and I was there last night. One thing I can tell you is that I am not renewing. Last year I "***"umed they had to do something to improve the team and renewed because I didn't think I would be able to get tickets this season....I was a sucker and and gave them my money. Seeing the Arena as empty as it was and knowing the Maloofs are giving me the hard sell to renew by this weekend I am going to pass. If, by chance, the Kings actually do something this off season I have no doubt I can call my ticket person and tell them I want my old seats back and I can get them. Kings are still in the top ten in ticket prices and until they show me some sign that they want to improve they can kiss my *** and I'll keep my money.....
Yes, he is playing almost twice as much in March as he did during the wasted months of Nov-Feb. Let's see how his PT stacks up now versus the rest of the lottery, looking only at March figures.
#1 Oden: n/a
#2 Durant: 36.7 MPG
#3 Horford: 31.6 MPG
#4 Conley: 24.9 MPG
#5 Green: 32.4 MPG
#6 Yi - INJURED - 19.0 MPG (down from 25.3 for the year)
#7 Brewer: 23.2 MPG
#8 B. Wright: 11.3 MPG
#9 Noah: 27.3 MPG
#10 Hawes: 18.6 MPG (up from 11 in Feb and 10 for the season)
#11 Law - INJURED - 12.3 MPG (down from 16.3 for the season)
#12 Young: 25.9 MPG
#13 J. Wright: 21.0 MPG
#14 Thornton: 33.5 MPG
So you're right, his minutes are way up, and he's no longer 2nd to last for minutes, he's 3rd from last because Acie Law's injury really killed his PT this month.
So, while Reggie is playing Hawes 80% more than in prior months, he is still way below par at playing the kids. He'll have to up their PT by an additional 50% to become about average.
I admit it. I'm totally confused about the team, about the future, etc.
I did go back and find the blog entry I think you were talking about when I begged for the kids to play more. And after reading it, I remembered why I wrote it...
I cannot recall another season where things were so confusing. When we were really, really bad, there weren't many questions. When we were really, really good there wasn't time for questions. Now, though, it seems like all we ever talk about are the negatives. I'm not a negative person by nature and I always try to find the bright side...
You know, always look on the bright side of life.. ta da, ta da da da da daaaaa.
I did go back and find the blog entry I think you were talking about when I begged for the kids to play more. And after reading it, I remembered why I wrote it...
I cannot recall another season where things were so confusing. When we were really, really bad, there weren't many questions. When we were really, really good there wasn't time for questions. Now, though, it seems like all we ever talk about are the negatives. I'm not a negative person by nature and I always try to find the bright side...
You know, always look on the bright side of life.. ta da, ta da da da da daaaaa.
bloom
Starter
Reggie wants to win and that’s great, I agree with him, we should go out there every night and play with pride, whether we’re going to the Playoffs or not. But I have to agree with you, we need to develop the couple young guys that we have (Douby and Hawes. Sheldon is young but I don’t see him in our future) and that’s his mistake. I think these guys do need to earn their playing time and I understand that. But here’s the problem, we’re not going to the Playoffs and I’d like us to use this time to give a little boost to these guys. Hawes is doing great, he’s coming along nicely and improving. I’d just like to see the confidence of these guys improve into next year. I hope Spencer keeps getting minutes and continues to improve in these last games but I’d really like Quincy to see the floor and the ball.
The main problem with this team isn’t the young players. The problem is that there isn’t unity. It’s not about wins vs. losses. It’s about teamwork and cohesion. It’s about the type of players that we have. The type of players that can grow and continue to improve together/work together. We don’t have that right now. We have some good pieces, but we need other ones.
I can see 4.5 of those players staying on this team into the future. Beno, Kevin, Cisco, Spencer and Miller to some extent (but not after his contract is over). Quincy isn’t given time, is he going to be traded? John’s attitude just might send him out of town. If Geoff is the GM I don’t think he’ll sign Ron to a contract. And if John isn’t traded does the team see him as a real starter (if Ron leaves)? – I don’t, he’s better if he can take his energy and move it into the bench role. Moore is a filler for the time, Sheldon – who knows what we have in store for him. I don’t have a good feeling about his future with us. Kenny/SAR are just eating up money.
Do we have a bench? I don’t think so. We have John who can’t seem to get over the fact that he’s still not starting. We have no Power Forward or a back-up point guard. We have Spencer and Cisco that seem to be alive off our bench. Our ball movement is coming from our center. There’s no fluidity on a regular basis. We need players together on the same page. We have some players playing for themselves (as said by Mikki Moore), we have people who won’t come off the bench to help their team.
The main problem with this team isn’t the young players. The problem is that there isn’t unity. It’s not about wins vs. losses. It’s about teamwork and cohesion. It’s about the type of players that we have. The type of players that can grow and continue to improve together/work together. We don’t have that right now. We have some good pieces, but we need other ones.
I can see 4.5 of those players staying on this team into the future. Beno, Kevin, Cisco, Spencer and Miller to some extent (but not after his contract is over). Quincy isn’t given time, is he going to be traded? John’s attitude just might send him out of town. If Geoff is the GM I don’t think he’ll sign Ron to a contract. And if John isn’t traded does the team see him as a real starter (if Ron leaves)? – I don’t, he’s better if he can take his energy and move it into the bench role. Moore is a filler for the time, Sheldon – who knows what we have in store for him. I don’t have a good feeling about his future with us. Kenny/SAR are just eating up money.
Do we have a bench? I don’t think so. We have John who can’t seem to get over the fact that he’s still not starting. We have no Power Forward or a back-up point guard. We have Spencer and Cisco that seem to be alive off our bench. Our ball movement is coming from our center. There’s no fluidity on a regular basis. We need players together on the same page. We have some players playing for themselves (as said by Mikki Moore), we have people who won’t come off the bench to help their team.
kennadog
Dog On It!
And quite possibly certifiable.We're Kings fans. We are ALL confused.
kupman
Starter
It should be noted that not many of these guys are only 19 years-old, which is a significant difference in my eyes. In fact, I am not sure how many miles I want my 19 year-old future center to be racking-up during a losing season. I am actually fine with the minutes he has received this year.
If Hawes is going to start wearing out at the age of 19, we have more problems than just getting him playing time. If anything, him being so young is a reason to play him more. Young guys are more resilient. Plus, he only becomes our future center if he gets playing time. If Hawes was playing college ball right now, he would be playing nearly the whole game.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
It's Very Sad
The sad part of the discussion is that the dye is cast. It's too late in the season to make the debate worthwhile. The Kings blew it at the BEGINNING of the season when they decided to have a half-assed vet/young team instead of going blowing it up and going all young. Now we can talk about the crumbs that are left. The other sad thing is that we will be talking about the same thing NEXT season. Joy of joys!
The sad part of the discussion is that the dye is cast. It's too late in the season to make the debate worthwhile. The Kings blew it at the BEGINNING of the season when they decided to have a half-assed vet/young team instead of going blowing it up and going all young. Now we can talk about the crumbs that are left. The other sad thing is that we will be talking about the same thing NEXT season. Joy of joys!
kupman
Starter
Playing 35 minutes/game during an 82 game NBA season is much different than playing 35-40 minutes during a 30 game college season. I am not worried about him wearing out at 19. I am worried about his body at 32 after 12+ full NBA seasons.
I just do not see the point of pushing minutes on someone so young. Let him develop slowly.
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
Watching all these rantings and ravings from afar one thing is clear: none of us are NBA coaches, GM's or owners.
Mikki and Brad are and have been outplaying Spencer. He is a 19-yr old rookie with one year of college ball who happens to be 7 ft tall. He is getting his time but he has a major learning process to go through. For example, how many times a game are his turnovers = travelling? 90%? probably. Correcting that takes time to learn not necessarily PT in games. I bet he does the same in practice.
Coach is bringing the newbies and kids along just fine while he learns the NBA game at the same time. In these last 11 games the Kings have the chance to be the big time spoiler for the Lakers and others. As a coach you want to WIN those games more than beating teams below you in the standings.
Then with at least 3 picks in the june draft, I bet we see a 2nd rounder who makes the team in the fall. I for one will go to the summer league in Las Vegas to catch 3 games to see Hawes and the new kids have at it.
Mikki and Brad are and have been outplaying Spencer. He is a 19-yr old rookie with one year of college ball who happens to be 7 ft tall. He is getting his time but he has a major learning process to go through. For example, how many times a game are his turnovers = travelling? 90%? probably. Correcting that takes time to learn not necessarily PT in games. I bet he does the same in practice.
Coach is bringing the newbies and kids along just fine while he learns the NBA game at the same time. In these last 11 games the Kings have the chance to be the big time spoiler for the Lakers and others. As a coach you want to WIN those games more than beating teams below you in the standings.
Then with at least 3 picks in the june draft, I bet we see a 2nd rounder who makes the team in the fall. I for one will go to the summer league in Las Vegas to catch 3 games to see Hawes and the new kids have at it.
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PFFFT!!
Starter
Hmmm...between a rock and a hard place. Artest does not want to lay down. He understands the fans are throwing in the towel, so hes stated many times to the media that "they are gunning for the playoffs". Its obvious hes the main catalyst in trying to win games, and that can spread in the lockeroom.
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