Isaiah Thomas' potential for 2012-2013 and later in his career.

[vikinginferno]

I was not referring to this thread for the most part. Sorry if I implied that. I have just gotten annoyed from time and time again people repeating that "IT is a midget PG that will only ever be a bench player!!!11" or that IT doesn't pass to Reke or that the team was only starting him because they were trying to make him ROY and trying to say that he did not legitimately win the starting PG job. It's just silly. Once again, it was more of a general comment over a long period as this thread was about IT and I thought I should mention that. I wasn't pointing out any specific comments in this thread.

 

[Uncia03]

I was not referring to this thread for the most part. Sorry if I implied that. I have just gotten annoyed from time and time again people repeating that "IT is a midget PG that will only ever be a bench player!!!11" or that IT doesn't pass to Reke or that the team was only starting him because they were trying to make him ROY and trying to say that he did not legitimately win the starting PG job. It's just silly. Once again, it was more of a general comment over a long period as this thread was about IT and I thought I should mention that. I wasn't pointing out any specific comments in this thread.

I think you can believe all of the above to be true and still not be hating on IT.

As mentioned, we got very lucky to pick up a quality player with the 60th pick in the draft.

With that said I do think that the Maloof's finances and a ROY promotional campaign did factor into the playing time that IT received. Having said that, if IT wasn't able to play he wouldn't have played. So just because I believe the ROY campaign did play a factor does not mean that I don't believe that IT deserved playing time, because he proved himself an NBA player on the court last season.

I'm also one of the people that says that IT did not pass the ball to Reke. Now, when I say that, I'm not saying that IT tried to freeze Tyreke out of the offense. What I'm saying is that Tyreke did improve his off-ball movement but I don't recall a lot of instances where it was IT who found Tyreke cutting to the rim for the easy bucket. I remember a lot more instances where Tyreke would drive to the lane and kick it out to IT for the wide-open jumper.
This isn't a criticism on IT because IT at least has the ability to hit the open shot, which we all want Tyreke to do.

But if IT isn't finding Tyreke for easy scoring opportunities then he isn't doing his job as the PG, because one of the primary points in moving Tyreke away from PG and bringing in another PG would be for that PG to get Tyreke more frequent 'easy' buckets, and that just didn't happen. (Now a lot of that probably has to do with Tyreke playing the 3 instead of the 2, but that's a separate issue. If you're going to move Tyreke off the ball more, then you need to have whomever has the ball looking for Tyreke for easy bucket opportunities.)

I'd say the #1 reason IT was moved into the starting line-up was because we didn't have someone able to step up and take the SF position. However, with IT in the starting line-up we kept on losing, so I think the #1 reason he stayed in the line-up was due to the ROY campaign driven by MSE.

Finally, if Tyreke is going to be your ball-dominant guard while in the game, it just makes a whole lot more sense to have IT in the game either when Tyreke is on the bench, or when Tyreke is tired. Therefore, in my opinion, IT is best served coming off the bench rather than starting.

I am perfectly aware that there are people who think that the Kings team will end up being a better team if IT handles the ball more than Tyreke. I'm not going to be able to change their minds and conversely I'm not going to be moved from my position.

If right now I had to pick between IT or Tyreke to carry this team as the primary ball-handler for the next 10 years I'm going to take Tyreke with-out hesitation. But just because I choose Tyreke doesn't mean that I don't like what IT brings to the team.

If you want to classify all the above as 'hating' you can do so, but I don't consider it hating at all, just trying to look at the team objectively.

 

[Tetsujin]

I was not referring to this thread for the most part. Sorry if I implied that. I have just gotten annoyed from time and time again people repeating that "IT is a midget PG that will only ever be a bench player!!!11" or that IT doesn't pass to Reke or that the team was only starting him because they were trying to make him ROY and trying to say that he did not legitimately win the starting PG job. It's just silly. Once again, it was more of a general comment over a long period as this thread was about IT and I thought I should mention that. I wasn't pointing out any specific comments in this thread.

To be fair, the only reason he became starting PG was because Keith Smart somehow thought that playing Reke at the 3 would make him a better 1 in the long run (or so he says, personally I think Smart generally acted on impulse in establishing the Nellie ball system he was running in GS). This isn't to say that IT isn't good but rather through a confluence of events, his production and, dare I say mystique, got inflated to a degree. Is he going to be Pooh Jeter bad? No. Is he going to be the second coming of the first Isiah Thomas? Probably not as well.

 

[vikinginferno]

I think you can believe all of the above to be true and still not be hating on IT.

As mentioned, we got very lucky to pick up a quality player with the 60th pick in the draft.

With that said I do think that the Maloof's finances and a ROY promotional campaign did factor into the playing time that IT received. Having said that, if IT wasn't able to play he wouldn't have played. So just because I believe the ROY campaign did play a factor does not mean that I don't believe that IT deserved playing time, because he proved himself an NBA player on the court last season.

I'm also one of the people that says that IT did not pass the ball to Reke. Now, when I say that, I'm not saying that IT tried to freeze Tyreke out of the offense. What I'm saying is that Tyreke did improve his off-ball movement but I don't recall a lot of instances where it was IT who found Tyreke cutting to the rim for the easy bucket. I remember a lot more instances where Tyreke would drive to the lane and kick it out to IT for the wide-open jumper.
This isn't a criticism on IT because IT at least has the ability to hit the open shot, which we all want Tyreke to do.

But if IT isn't finding Tyreke for easy scoring opportunities then he isn't doing his job as the PG, because one of the primary points in moving Tyreke away from PG and bringing in another PG would be for that PG to get Tyreke more frequent 'easy' buckets, and that just didn't happen. (Now a lot of that probably has to do with Tyreke playing the 3 instead of the 2, but that's a separate issue. If you're going to move Tyreke off the ball more, then you need to have whomever has the ball looking for Tyreke for easy bucket opportunities.)

I'd say the #1 reason IT was moved into the starting line-up was because we didn't have someone able to step up and take the SF position. However, with IT in the starting line-up we kept on losing, so I think the #1 reason he stayed in the line-up was due to the ROY campaign driven by MSE.

Finally, if Tyreke is going to be your ball-dominant guard while in the game, it just makes a whole lot more sense to have IT in the game either when Tyreke is on the bench, or when Tyreke is tired. Therefore, in my opinion, IT is best served coming off the bench rather than starting.

I am perfectly aware that there are people who think that the Kings team will end up being a better team if IT handles the ball more than Tyreke. I'm not going to be able to change their minds and conversely I'm not going to be moved from my position.

If right now I had to pick between IT or Tyreke to carry this team as the primary ball-handler for the next 10 years I'm going to take Tyreke with-out hesitation. But just because I choose Tyreke doesn't mean that I don't like what IT brings to the team.

If you want to classify all the above as 'hating' you can do so, but I don't consider it hating at all, just trying to look at the team objectively.

*Facepalm*

I'm getting too burned out dealing with all of the conspiracy theories (Lottery is rigged!! Playoffs are rigged!!) to deal with another silly one that the main reason IT started at PG because he was competing for ROY. Nevermind the fact that he was playing absolutely great and he was our best player at times last season. Nevermind the fact that it is much, much more likely that Keith Smart decided that he was the best option and not the Maloofs who wanted to get some more butts in the seats with a possible ROY. Nope, you see: The Maloofs were actually grooming Jimmer for the rookie of the year contender spot until they realized he had fallen out of favor and become more of a joke than anything. In comes fairly unknown 60th pick who can take his spot and we can create a fake ROY campaign around him! Call up Keith Smart! Tell him to start this kid pronto! Tell him he must magically make him play well and make the team better while putting up numbers at an amazing efficiency! Yes...yes...our evil plan will work!

Sigh...and yep, IT had a personal vendetta against Tyreke so he decided not to pass it to him even when he was open. Yep, that is it!

 

[Tetsujin]

*Facepalm*

I'm getting too burned out dealing with all of the conspiracy theories (Lottery is rigged!! Playoffs are rigged!!) to deal with another silly one that the main reason IT started at PG because he was competing for ROY. Nevermind the fact that he was playing absolutely great and he was our best player at times last season. Nevermind the fact that it is much, much more likely that Keith Smart decided that he was the best option and not the Maloofs who wanted to get some more butts in the seats with a possible ROY. Nope, you see: The Maloofs were actually grooming Jimmer for the rookie of the year contender spot until they realized he had fallen out of favor and become more of a joke than anything. In comes fairly unknown 60th pick who can take his spot and we can create a fake ROY campaign around him! Call up Keith Smart! Tell him to start this kid pronto! Tell him he must magically make him play well and make the team better while putting up numbers at an amazing efficiency! Yes...yes...our evil plan will work!

Sigh...and yep, IT had a personal vendetta against Tyreke so he decided not to pass it to him even when he was open. Yep, that is it!

I take it you didn't actually read his post.

 

[vikinginferno]

To be fair, the only reason he became starting PG was because Keith Smart somehow thought that playing Reke at the 3 would make him a better 1 in the long run (or so he says, personally I think Smart generally acted on impulse in establishing the Nellie ball system he was running in GS). This isn't to say that IT isn't good but rather through a confluence of events, his production and, dare I say mystique, got inflated to a degree. Is he going to be Pooh Jeter bad? No. Is he going to be the second coming of the first Isiah Thomas? Probably not as well.

Smart said that he thought playing Reke at the 3 could help him become more versatile, but I do not think he said that was the reason for the lineup switch. I'm pretty sure he felt Salmons was playing terribly and decided to put the best players on the floor together (IT, Reke, Thornton) no matter that it is very small. I don't think his production got inflated in the least bit, I think it was undervalued. Even when he was producing at an incredible rate, most people were discussing how he still was just a sparkplug or similar things like that. It definitely was nowhere near the level of inflation that Tyreke got when he put up 20, 5, and 5 (a great accomplishment as it had only been done a couple times, but it was made to be much, much more meaningful than in reality.)

 

[Tetsujin]

Smart said that he thought playing Reke at the 3 could help him become more versatile, but I do not think he said that was the reason for the lineup switch. I'm pretty sure he felt Salmons was playing terribly and decided to put the best players on the floor together (IT, Reke, Thornton) no matter that it is very small. I don't think his production got inflated in the least bit, I think it was undervalued. Even when he was producing at an incredible rate, most people were discussing how he still was just a sparkplug or similar things like that. It definitely was nowhere near the level of inflation that Tyreke got when he put up 20, 5, and 5 (a great accomplishment as it had only been done a couple times, but it was made to be much, much more meaningful than in reality.)

Smallball leads to greater offensive numbers, especially from guards.

 

[vikinginferno]

I take it you didn't actually read his post.

Yes, I did actually. It was an exaggeration for added effect. He mentioned he didn't think IT was trying to "freeze Tyreke out of the offense," but that he just did not pass to him when he was open. If you don't want me guessing why he thinks that, he should probably give an explanation of his own.

 

[Tetsujin]

Yes, I did actually. It was an exaggeration for added effect. He mentioned he didn't think IT was trying to "freeze Tyreke out of the offense," but that he just did not pass to him when he was open. If you don't want me guessing why he thinks that, he should probably give an explanation of his own.

So you say that you're tired of people reading deeper into situations than they probably should but then promptly turn around and do the same thing when reading into his post. Classic.

 

[vikinginferno]

Smallball leads to greater offensive numbers, especially from guards.

Yeah, and it also accounts for his incredible assist to turnover ratio, shooting percentages, and change in team culture from taking turns driving into the lane without regard for an offensive system to a fluid offense.

 

[vikinginferno]

So you say that you're tired of people reading deeper into situations than they probably should but then promptly turn around and do the same thing when reading into his post. Classic.

That's not what I was doing in the least bit. I was trying to figure out his viewpoint on an issue and I framed what he seemed to indicate. That is not reading deeper in the least bit as I am not portraying what I actually think, simply what is conveyed to me from his post.

 

[Tetsujin]

Yeah, and it also accounts for his incredible assist to turnover ratio, shooting percentages, and change in team culture from taking turns driving into the lane without regard for an offensive system to a fluid offense.

It also accounts in our change in team culture from playing crappy defense to playing no defense at all. I'd be remiss if I neglected to point out the fact that having IT in our starting lineup did absolutely nothing to help us actually win games, despite the fact we played an easier schedule with the Smatball line-up in place.

 

[vikinginferno]

It also accounts in our change in team culture from playing crappy defense to playing no defense at all. I'd be remiss if I neglected to point out the fact that having IT in our starting lineup did absolutely nothing to help us actually win games, despite the fact we played an easier schedule with the Smatball line-up in place.

That's weird, because the stats indicate differently. Our point differential went from around -8 from before the change to -3 or so after. It definitely helped put us in better position to win games. We just ended up faltering in close situations.

Our defense was just as bad before the change as after. Playing Tyreke at small forward and having no good interior defender is also a large part of the problem. IT had great defensive numbers.

 

[Lockehead]

The IT dominating the ball more than Tyreke issue is a bit inflated because of Thornton, who we know needs his shots as much as anybody else on the team. Reke hasn't shown he wants the ball more than either IT or Thornton. So it's not surprising that at times it looks as if his ball usage is taking a backseat to the other guys.

IT's our best fit right now as our PG.* I predict if we had IT/Reke in the backcourt while moving Thornton to the bench and bringing in one of our role playing SF's, Reke would get a lot more touches. Maybe Thomas can find his niche among Cousins and Reke as well.

edit: * I want to add i think Jimmer could be a better fit than IT. He's shown that at times. But IT proved to be more consistent and polished as an overall player than Jimmer was during their rookie years.

 

[Uncia03]

Yes, I did actually. It was an exaggeration for added effect. He mentioned he didn't think IT was trying to "freeze Tyreke out of the offense," but that he just did not pass to him when he was open. If you don't want me guessing why he thinks that, he should probably give an explanation of his own.

You start off today making a claim about IT 'hate', to which I feel it's necessary to respond so there isn't any confusion. Then when I try to lay out clear and concise logic as to why I'm positioning myself on a particular issue, you then make an admittedly exaggerated claim for 'effect'.

It's almost as you're trying to make my argument more extreme so that you can proceed to dismayed at my 'supposed' outrageous position.

So for the last time today on this topic:

1.) I like IT and am glad that we have him.
2.) I don't think he's better than Tyreke and I view him as a complimentary piece to the puzzle, while I consider Tyreke a building block.
3.) IT didn't try to freeze Tyreke out.
However, whether the issue is that Tyreke needs to learn to move with the ball more (which he does) or IT not finding Tyreke when he did move with-out the ball (which he didn't do enough), or the issue with Smart not putting together a good half-court offense to take advantage of Tyreke's off-ball movement and IT's passing (which he didn't), it all came down to IT not finding Tyreke as much as he could have.
That is a problem and needs to be fixed if both IT and Tyreke are going to be on the floor together a lot, and has absolutely nothing to do with conspiracy theories or IT trying to undermine Tyreke.

4.) To claim there wasn't a huge push for 'IT for ROY' is just ignoring what was right there. Now you can claim that the push didn't impact basketball-related decisions, and that's a claim I'm perfectly willing to accept.
However, it's my personal opinion that considering what is going on with the Kings and the Maloofs, that some of the stuff did impact basketball related decisions. Notice I'm not saying it drove the decisions, but I do think it had some influence.
For the final time, IT played great ball, so there is a reason he was on the court, but I do think there was more to it than just his great play.

 

[rainmaker]

Rainmaker, Tyreke said that he liked playing with IT (i.e he wasn't hurting him). Do you think Tyreke is wrong?

He very well might like playing with IT, or not, I don't know, nor do I expect Reke or anyone else to throw a teammate under the bus when talking to the media, or Napear. That doesn't mean anyone should be thrown under the bus, but Reke as much as anyone on our team has been schooled in what and what not to say to the media. I'm also not against an IT/Reke backcourt, and if it happens I sure hope they do like playing with each other. I also would assume if asked Cuz would say he likes playing next to JT, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to upgrade whoever plays next to Cuz.

And I fail to see how IT hurts Cousins in any way. Just the opposite. He can get the ball to him in the right spots, he can run an excellent pick and roll with Cousins, he can open the floor to help Cousins get space under the basket. You and I are seeing an ENTIRELY different game on the court if you think IT hurts Cousins. Cousins loves playing with this guy. I don't know where you get this stuff from.

You took my point out of context. This is what I posted mentioning Cuz:

Thing with IT is I think he's best when he's aggressive, but he can't be with Reke/Cuz out there without hurting them, and no I do not think he's good enough to be the 3rd guy on a playoff club. He's a combo guard who's best when he's aggressive, looking for his or attacking and trying to create and should be able to excel at that role coming off the bench, as again I don't see him doing that as a full time starter,

For him to play as a full time starter with Reke/Cuz, he has to step back to help them both be more effective and I don't think he plays particularly well when he does that,

Just what in there says IT makes Cuz worse? Reke and Cuz both need the ball and are aggressive players by nature, as well as our foundation. IT imo, is at his best when he's aggressive. What doesn't work well, is IT being aggressive with Reke and Cuz on the court at the same time. Someone suffers. If IT takes a step back and concentrate on setting up Reke and Cuz, which he's more than capable of doing, then IT isn't having the impact he can have, as by the nature of stepping back and being a setup guy, he won't be as aggressive looking for his shot, and therefor we either wouldn't be getting the most out of IT, with both Reke/Cuz also on the floor, or if IT/Cuz were being the aggressive ones, Reke would not be maximized. It's about maximizing resources.

But again, where did I say anything relating to IT makes Cuz worse.

 

[vikinginferno]

You start off today making a claim about IT 'hate', to which I feel it's necessary to respond so there isn't any confusion. Then when I try to lay out clear and concise logic as to why I'm positioning myself on a particular issue, you then make an admittedly exaggerated claim for 'effect'.

It's almost as you're trying to make my argument more extreme so that you can proceed to dismayed at my 'supposed' outrageous position.

So for the last time today on this topic:

1.) I like IT and am glad that we have him.
2.) I don't think he's better than Tyreke and I view him as a complimentary piece to the puzzle, while I consider Tyreke a building block.
3.) IT didn't try to freeze Tyreke out.
However, whether the issue is that Tyreke needs to learn to move with the ball more (which he does) or IT not finding Tyreke when he did move with-out the ball (which he didn't do enough), or the issue with Smart not putting together a good half-court offense to take advantage of Tyreke's off-ball movement and IT's passing (which he didn't), it all came down to IT not finding Tyreke as much as he could have.
That is a problem and needs to be fixed if both IT and Tyreke are going to be on the floor together a lot, and has absolutely nothing to do with conspiracy theories or IT trying to undermine Tyreke.

4.) To claim there wasn't a huge push for 'IT for ROY' is just ignoring what was right there. Now you can claim that the push didn't impact basketball-related decisions, and that's a claim I'm perfectly willing to accept.
However, it's my personal opinion that considering what is going on with the Kings and the Maloofs, that some of the stuff did impact basketball related decisions. Notice I'm not saying it drove the decisions, but I do think it had some influence.
For the final time, IT played great ball, so there is a reason he was on the court, but I do think there was more to it than just his great play.

Look, you made a claim that IT has not/does not pass the ball to Tyreke. That is a somewhat outrageous claim to me. You did not back it up with any data/reasons, so you are leaving it up to me to try and interpret what you are trying to say. If you throw something out like that, you are going to be met with a lot of people questioning what you are trying to say.

4. If you are claiming this, would you also claim that Tyreke was getting the ball because of his ROY "20-5-5" campaign? To me, that is silly. It is much more likely because he was playing very well and it is the same with IT. There is a logical explanation and a more farfetched explanation for why IT started and continued to get minutes. You are going with the farfetched over the logical.

I guess we are going to have to disagree about IT because I think he is a "building block." He was a rookie last season and he played amazingly. There is no reason he cannot improve as he is also one of the most hardworking players on the team. Let me ask you this: If he were 5 inches taller, would you still say that he was just a complementary piece? I feel like people get far too hanged up on the height and do not realize it rarely even affects him as he is extremely athletic, is already a good defender, and has no trouble shooting the ball or driving. The people who harp on that are the same people that would get hanged up on a Steve Nash because he is "slow and not athletic." Too often people overlook what someone does great to see a perceived fault that often doesn't even hurt their game. This last part was more of a rant than anything you are arguing.

 

[rainmaker]

I didn't say that IT isn't a good passer, but the fact is that you have to have the ball in your hands in order to pass the ball. And if you're in the half-court looking to run the pick-and-roll or looking to feed Cousins, then it must mean that the ball is in your hands.

And if it's in IT's hands, then it's not in Tyreke's hands, and if Tyreke doesn't have the ball his effectiveness plummets.
Sure he improved quite a bit with his off-ball movement last year. But just like Wade in the finals...it's great to see him make those random cuts to get the ball for scoring opportunities, but Wade is best served having the ball at the top of the key with a live dribble and a screener. And he isn't a spot-up shooter.

And it's not as if IT is just passing the ball every-which-way when he does it. After the all-star break he averaged 10 shots/game while Evans averaged 13 shots/game.

When Tyreke is on the floor he should be the guard who handles the ball the majority of the time. When IT is on the floor he should be the guard who handles the ball the majority of the time.

I don't think that Tyreke would have any problems playing with IT if IT brought up the ball into the half-court and then either dumped it down to Cousins or gave it to Tyreke and then went into spot-up-shooting position.

I do think that Tyreke would have a problem with being involved in multiple offensive half-court sets where he doesn't touch the ball because IT is taking all of the ball-handling duties.

The question is: Is it worth making IT a starter if all he's doing is bringing up the floor and then dumping the ball to Cousins/Tyreke then getting into position to shoot the ball if it comes to him? I don't think that's the best way to utilize IT as I'd prefer him to be the primary ball handler when he comes into the game, but not at the expense of Tyreke.

I hear you, loud and clear, and don't understand why this viewpoint is seen so negatively, or full of "hate".

Not really complicated. IT is at his best when aggressive. Yet, putting an aggressive PG into a lineup where both Cuz/Reke need to also be aggressive, doesn't work well as someone will not be getting the ball and being used the best of their abilities when on the floor. Can't think of many successful backcourts where both guys were aggressive, and the ones which do of recent, Monta/Steph, or Monta/Jennings, are lottery teams, but in both cases neither have an up and coming Cuz down low either.

But as I started, IT is best when he's aggressive, not simply looking to be a setup guy, which turns him into an off the ball spot up shooter. He's best with the ball, looking to create for himself or others. Same as Reke. They both can't play their games side by side. Play IT off the bench where he can be aggressive, without a Reke or Cuz on the floor, and he leaves a larger imprint on the games. Have him be a setup guy for Reke/Cuz, he has a smaller imprint on the game.

I compared him to Bjax, filling that type of role, and it seems to be an insult for some. BJax was a damn good player and filled a vital role, and would not have worked in the starting lineup if Christie wasn't with us. Bibby/Webb were the primary ball handlers, with Vlade getting some opportunities, Doug moving the ball and Peja moving without it. Put BJax in the lineup and he can't impact the game the same way as he could off the bench as if he was as aggressive as he normally was a 6th man(where he was at his best being aggressive), it would have taken away from Bibby/Webb. Without Bibby on the floor, and often Webb resting as well, he could be incredibly aggressive attacking and creating either for himself or others. This is one example of many from around the league. Not sure why some don't understand.

 

[Bricklayer]

Look, you made a claim that IT has not/does not pass the ball to Tyreke. That is a somewhat outrageous claim to me. You did not back it up with any data/reasons, so you are leaving it up to me to try and interpret what you are trying to say. If you throw something out like that, you are going to be met with a lot of people questioning what you are trying to say.

4. If you are claiming this, would you also claim that Tyreke was getting the ball because of his ROY "20-5-5" campaign? To me, that is silly. It is much more likely because he was playing very well and it is the same with IT. There is a logical explanation and a more farfetched explanation for why IT started and continued to get minutes. You are going with the farfetched over the logical.

I guess we are going to have to disagree about IT because I think he is a "building block." He was a rookie last season and he played amazingly. There is no reason he cannot improve as he is also one of the most hardworking players on the team. Let me ask you this: If he were 5 inches taller, would you still say that he was just a complementary piece? I feel like people get far too hanged up on the height and do not realize it rarely even affects him as he is extremely athletic, is already a good defender, and has no trouble shooting the ball or driving. The people who harp on that are the same people that would get hanged up on a Steve Nash because he is "slow and not athletic." Too often people overlook what someone does great to see a perceived fault that often doesn't even hurt their game. This last part was more of a rant than anything you are arguing.

IT's arrival froze Reke out of the game, straight out. At times it looked almost intentional. Its not jsut a question of Reke's shots plummeting, it was his touches and ability to impact the game. Reke was reduced to a silly runout game where his oly offense was to race out as fast as he could for 1 on however many of the other team were back fastbreak opportunities that had little to do with teamwork.

Now something interesting happened at the end of the season however. Reke's agent blew through town, Thornton got hurt, Smart gave a concilliatory press conference, Reke suddenly looked assertive, and IT suddenly backed off. It was a Reke rebirth and felt like Reke taking back the team, or at least his agent applying pressure, which was then applied down the line through front office to coach and possibly to diminutive PG. Either way for the last 4 games of the season something workable suddenly arose, with Reke clearly the #2 option, and with IT getting out of the way and backing off to 3rd option status. Its a very small sample size, and a slim hope to be clinging to, nonetheless its there.

Its still not how you buld this team though. IT should flat out be the 6th man. He has the dymnamic pace change and aggressiveness typical of that breed. There are reasons no IT lookalikes are not starting next to Westbrook (Sefalosha) or Wade (Chalmers) in this Finals. IT would degrade the performance of those stars. Instead those teams start professional stay out of the wayers who play defense and hit threes. Its a bit silly to, through basketball ignorance, ask IT to step back his game to play like those guys as a starter when he could play his full natural game as a 6th man. Nonetheless, I have the temerity to beleive that the two teams in the Finals are built better than the Sacramento Kings, and that their organizations and coaches may know a thing or two about how to balance a team.

 

[vikinginferno]

IT's arrival froze Reke out of the game, straight out. At times it looked almost intentional. Its not jsut a question of Reke's shots plummeting, it was his touches and ability to impact the game. Reke was reduced to a silly runout game where his oly offense was to race out as fast as he could for 1 on however many of the other team were back fastbreak opportunities that had little to do with teamwork.

Now something interesting happened at the end of the season however. Reke's agent blew through town, Thornton got hurt, Smart gave a concilliatory press conference, Reke suddenly looked assertive, and IT suddenly backed off. It was a Reke rebirth and felt like Reke taking back the team, or at least his agent applying pressure, which was then applied down the line through front office to coach and possibly to diminutive PG. Either way for the last 4 games of the season something workable suddenly arose, with Reke clearly the #2 option, and with IT getting out of the way and backing off to 3rd option status. Its a very small sample size, and a slim hope to be clinging to, nonetheless its there.

Its still not how you buld this team though. IT should flat out be the 6th man. He has the dymnamic pace change and aggressiveness typical of that breed. There are reasons no IT lookalikes are not starting next to Westbrook (Sefalosha) or Wade (Chalmers) in this Finals. IT would degrade the performance of those stars. Instead those teams start professional stay out of the wayers who play defense and hit threes. Its a bit silly to, through basketball ignorance, ask IT to step back his game to play like those guys as a starter when he could play his full natural game as a 6th man. Nonetheless, I have the temerity to beleive that the two teams in the Finals are built better than the Sacramento Kings, and that their organizations and coaches may know a thing or two about how to balance a team.

I disagree completely. Reke was playing the SF position and Smart (probably not intelligently) wanted him to learn another aspect of basketball. You can blame it all on IT like it seems many of you seem to want to do, but he isn't at fault here. Reke's touches went down, but he still got the ball the same amount as IT. You can say he should be getting it more than IT, but you can't say he "froze Reke out of the game," that is ludicrous. He was still a major part of the offense, he just didn't get absolute complete control like he had previously.

To your second point, I don't think that happened at all. IT did not seem to back up in the least bit the last number of games. You mentioned Thornton got hurt. That opens up the offense for Reke. I highly doubt it had anything to do with Reke's agent basically telling IT to back off.

There may not be IT lookalikes next to Westbrook or Wade, but Tyreke is no Westbrook or Wade. He actually isn't all that close. You guys seem to be saying that he is/will be a superstar level player, but I don't see it happening. I don't see him becoming Westbrook or Wade. I sure hope he does as that would be great for the team, but you guys seem to be saying it as a foregone conclusion that Tyreke is the level of player that you build a team around and I just don't see it. He isn't good enough to be above the team.

 

[Tetsujin]

I disagree completely. Reke was playing the SF position and Smart (probably not intelligently) wanted him to learn another aspect of basketball. You can blame it all on IT like it seems many of you seem to want to do, but he isn't at fault here. Reke's touches went down, but he still got the ball the same amount as IT. You can say he should be getting it more than IT, but you can't say he "froze Reke out of the game," that is ludicrous. He was still a major part of the offense, he just didn't get absolute complete control like he had previously.

To your second point, I don't think that happened at all. IT did not seem to back up in the least bit the last number of games. You mentioned Thornton got hurt. That opens up the offense for Reke. I highly doubt it had anything to do with Reke's agent basically telling IT to back off.

There may not be IT lookalikes next to Westbrook or Wade, but Tyreke is no Westbrook or Wade. He actually isn't all that close. You guys seem to be saying that he is/will be a superstar level player, but I don't see it happening. I don't see him becoming Westbrook or Wade. I sure hope he does as that would be great for the team, but you guys seem to be saying it as a foregone conclusion that Tyreke is the level of player that you build a team around and I just don't see it. He isn't good enough to be above the team.

No one has done this. As much as you like to claim that everyone's "hate" for IT is clouding their judgement, your love for him is obviously clouding yours.

 

[vikinginferno]

No one has done this. As much as you like to claim that everyone's "hate" for IT is clouding their judgement, your love for him is obviously clouding yours.

Brick clearly states that "IT's arrival froze Reke out of the game, straight out." If that is not what is considered blaming it on IT, then I don't know what is. I never said those words that "everyone's hate for IT is clouding their judgement". I said that people seem to blame things on IT, which I think is extremely valid.

How funny that you (wrongly) chide me for supposedly claiming that "everyone's "hate" for IT is clouding their judgement" then similarly claim that my "love for him is obviously clouding yours."

 

[Tetsujin]

Brick clearly states that "IT's arrival froze Reke out of the game, straight out." If that is not what is considered blaming it on IT, then I don't know what is. I never said those words that "everyone's hate for IT is clouding their judgement". I said that people seem to blame things on IT, which I think is extremely valid.

How funny that you (wrongly) chide me for supposedly claiming that "everyone's "hate" for IT is clouding their judgement" then similarly claim that my "love for him is obviously clouding yours."

Ah yes the classic I know you are but what am I argument.

As I have much better things to do with my time than get into a weewee measuring contest on a message board over our backup PG, I'm going to withdraw from this insipid conversation.

 

[vikinginferno]

Ah yes the classic I know you are but what am I argument.

As I have much better things to do with my time than get into a weewee measuring contest on a message board over our backup PG, I'm going to withdraw from this insipid conversation.

What are you even talking about, man? I am doing nothing of the sort. What do you mean "I know you are, but what am I?" I never said anything like that. You might need to reread what I wrote. You aren't making sense at all because I didn't say anything like what it seems you are pointing out. I was pointing out that you are being hypocritical by chiding me for claiming that people's hate clouds their judgement and then doing the same thing by saying my "love" for IT clouds my judgement. If anything, that is much more of a sophomoric jab than anything I have said. I wasn't saying anything insulting or a "weewee measuring contest". I don't even know what you mean by that. Again, what the hell?

 

[Bricklayer]

To your second point, I don't think that happened at all. IT did not seem to back up in the least bit the last number of games. You mentioned Thornton got hurt. That opens up the offense for Reke. I highly doubt it had anything to do with Reke's agent basically telling IT to back off.

IT was perking right along lost in a happy smallball gunner's paradise until those last games. During the rest of April(10 games) he averaged 16.4ppg on 12.1 shots a game. Those numbers would have been even higher if not for an abberrant 20min 2pt on 1-5 shooting outing. Then suddenly the change up occurs, and for the last 4 games of the season he averages 11.0pts a gameon 7.3 shots a game. And those BTW are sustainable roleplayer level numbers. Its a pretty universal cutoff aroudn the league. You have the stars of the team shooting 15+, and then there is normally a break, and you hit th main roleplayers somewhere less than 10, maybe 7-8 shots a game. IT closed the season playing at a sustainable rate.

 

[vikinginferno]

IT was perking right along lost in a happy smallball gunner's paradise until those last games. During the rest of April(10 games) he averaged 16.4ppg on 12.1 shots a game. Those numbers would have been even higher if not for an abberrant 20min 2pt on 1-5 shooting outing. Then suddenly the change up occurs, and for the last 4 games of the season he averages 11.0pts a gameon 7.3 shots a game. And those BTW are sustainable roleplayer level numbers. Its a pretty universal cutoff aroudn the league. You have the stars of the team shooting 15+, and then there is normally a break, and you hit th main roleplayers somewhere less than 10, maybe 7-8 shots a game. IT closed the season playing at a sustainable rate.

Look, you can find little aberrations all the time with such a small sample size. You can chalk it up to some outlandish reason, but I am not going to make claims like that when it could be caused by many different things and it could just as easily be a "random" aberration.

I just don't see IT as a "role player" whatever that means nowadays. If by role player, you mean a guy who can shoot the lights out, pass at a very high level, defend, and be a pretty good leader, then yeah I guess he is a role player.

 

[Sac.1989]

Smart has said publicly that Tyreke is going to be the starting PG.

Really ? News to me. Really hope so. Any links

 

[mac]

2011 - 2012 3 pt % stats..

Brandon Rush - .452
Jordan Farmar - .440
Willie Green - .442

Yeah, I think it's possible that IT can get to 45%. He doesn't have to force it because they give him room on the drive, he has a big man that can kick him open shots. He's got good form and touch on his shot. He can be more comfortable on the floor in his second year on when and where he can get the 3 pt shot. It's an ambitious goal to be as good as Jordan Farmar in 3 pt percentage, but it seems possible.

I also think his assist totals could easily go up over 7 if given the ball more and as this team has more of a semblance of an offense and other players around him continue to get better at finishing.


http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/3-points

And at the same time you never felt that Tyreke would get more assists if John Salmons could hit his open 3s, JT would stop hit his layups etc. So with IT it's up to his team mates to finish, but with Tyreke his passes were off blablablabla.

Just pointing out how incredibly biased you are. But don't get me wrong, I would love it if IT could shoot 45% from 3. It would space the floor and give Tyreke a good outlet for kickouts. But the point is, you need to have the ball in Evans' hands. If IT is running pick and rolls with Cuz, taking all these shots that the defense is giving him off of Cousins' kickouts ("big man that can kick him open shots") then I don't see where Evans is even in the picture. And if that's the case then I don't see how you can say that IT would not be taking the ball out of Tyreke's hands.

In any case, we really won't know till we see how the offense is next year after a full training camp with Smart. I'm hoping for better execution in the halfcourt, and really playing to our strengths, which means making use of Tyreke's ability to penetrate off the dribble, Cuz's post ability and ability to step out for 16 footers, IT's quickness, court vision and good shooting, as well as Thornton's scoring. It's up to Smart to find a way to balance all of that and to get synergy from all their individual talents.

And btw, I still disagree with you about the need to feed Cousins in pick and rolls and what not. The bigs that run pick and rolls these days are all great athletic finishers around the rim. Cousins is not one of those. Cousins is someone you just get the ball to in the post and have him score on his opponent. I agree that you need to get him some easy buckets when possible, but the pick and roll game is just not Cousins' MO.

 

[mac]

Look, you can find little aberrations all the time with such a small sample size. You can chalk it up to some outlandish reason, but I am not going to make claims like that when it could be caused by many different things and it could just as easily be a "random" aberration.

I just don't see IT as a "role player" whatever that means nowadays. If by role player, you mean a guy who can shoot the lights out, pass at a very high level, defend, and be a pretty good leader, then yeah I guess he is a role player.

I don't know about you man, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on what we saw. I am not blaming Isaiah Thomas for anything, and I think he's a very good player that I'm happy to have on our team, but what my eyes saw was him rarely finding Evans on his cuts to the basket, rarely giving the ball to Evans on the perimeter, often favoring even Travis Outlaw instead. It's very much like what we saw with John Salmons and Jimmer early on. It just seemed as if John was refusing to pass the ball to Jimmer.

At the very least, there was certainly a clear lack of emphasis in getting Tyreke the ball. You could see IT trying to get the ball to Cousins all the time. To Evans, not so much. Now maybe you want to question whether Tyreke deserved to be given the ball a lot, and I won't argue with you over that.

 

[rainmaker]

I don't know about you man, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on what we saw. I am not blaming Isaiah Thomas for anything, and I think he's a very good player that I'm happy to have on our team, but what my eyes saw was him rarely finding Evans on his cuts to the basket, rarely giving the ball to Evans on the perimeter, often favoring even Travis Outlaw instead. It's very much like what we saw with John Salmons and Jimmer early on. It just seemed as if John was refusing to pass the ball to Jimmer.

At the very least, there was certainly a clear lack of emphasis in getting Tyreke the ball. You could see IT trying to get the ball to Cousins all the time. To Evans, not so much. Now maybe you want to question whether Tyreke deserved to be given the ball a lot, and I won't argue with you over that.

Yep. Seemed most of Rekes assisted baskets were actually from Cuz, and with IT it was more of once every 7-8 trips of the court he'd give it to Reke on the wing for an iso. Aside from the transition game, I rarely saw IT assist or setup Reke in the halfcourt, and his first option seemed to dump it to Cuz, his second was to call for a screen, use the screen to get his shot or hit Cuz for the pick and pop, or come off the screen and swing it to MT while Reke was in the corner. Even a few games towards the end when Reke had it going early on, IT would come down and repeatedly set up Outlaw, or dump it into JT/Chuck for posts up instead, or Cuz on 4-5 straight possessions, even when Reke would pop out to the wing and was open.

If you're a PG, one of your clear jobs is to set up your 1st and 2nd option. That just didn't happen most of the time, and it's on both IT and Smart. You can't say IT has nothing to do with it when he's repeatedly not getting the ball to the teams 2nd best option. Reke needs it enough to get into a rhythm and impact the game, which simply didn't happen. Westbrook is levels ahead of IT, yet regularly gets hammered for not setting up Durant enough. If he repeatedly comes down and say Harden were to rarely see the ball and not get it enough to get into a rhythm, and was simply stuck in the corner waiting for the occasional pass, Westbrook isn't doing his job as a PG. But even when that occasionally happens, Wesbrook is still an AS and can still heavily impact the games. Here we have our 2nd best player not being involved much for weeks at a time, and the guy handling it instead is a 2nd team allrookie, not an AS PG, yet none of it has to do with IT?

That also doesn't mean I don't want IT or he isn't a good player. He's just not our 2nd best player and Reke can't take a backseat to him. IT can still greatly help this team.