Is this team better or worse than when Paul Wesetphal was fired?

[t-rex]

I think it's much worse. Not even close. The stats bear that out. The coach should try to get the best out of his players not refusing to develop the only player showing significant improvement (Jimmer). Keith Smart had his chance. He blew it. Sure a lot of it is the players fault and Petrie's fault. But if the Warriors and Kings switched rosters, I'm guessing Mark Jackson would have this team playing a whole hell of a lot better and the Warriors, Well we know how they were when Smart coached them. The warriors knew that Keith Smart wasn't the answer and we all now know it too.

 

[Section 101]

Westfail wanted to trade Cuz. So anything is better.

 

[t-rex]

Westfail wanted to trade Cuz. So anything is better.

Really? Trading Cuz doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me. You really think he's untouchable? Maybe Westphal knew what a "head case" he was and didn't want to put it up with it for an entire season. You could make the argument that Cousins and Evans have gotten progressively worse under Keith Smart. How's "So anything is better" working for us now?

 

[Padrino]

Westfail wanted to trade Cuz. So anything is better.

irrelevant question because of the above. the team need not be any better post-westphal to justify his firing because of his fractured relationship with a volatile demarcus cousins. however, the decision to permanently elevate keith smart to the head coaching position was terribly shortsighted...

 

[UK_King]

His "be creative" offense led to similar problems we have now.

(ignoring the off court stuff already mentioned)

 

[Padrino]

Really? Trading Cuz doesn't seem like such a bad idea to me. You really think he's untouchable? Maybe Westphal knew what a "head case" he was and didn't want to put it up with it for an entire season. You could make the argument that Cousins and Evans have gotten progressively worse under Keith Smart. How's "So anything is better" working for us now?

trade demarcus cousins in his sophomore season for what, exactly? how high were the bids gonna be in this scenario? you'd trade away a potential franchise center for spare parts and draft picks? i certainly wouldn't. giving a player of demarcus' talent a chance to succeed is always better than the alternative: watching him develop and dominate with a different team. so you fire paul westphal and promote your chief assistant until something better comes along. and that is the problem. the kings did the right thing by allowing keith smart to connect with demarcus early on. that alone made his promotion worth it. but now the issue should be what life will look like after keith smart. he did his part. the kings' ownership and front office have failed to do theirs by looking for a more veteran, more stable solution at the head coaching position. nate mcmillan. jerry sloan. hell, even flip saunders is out there. they've sought out none of these available coaches. they extended an inexperienced head coach with a weak pedigree instead of doing the proper diligence...

 

[Npliam]

I am not sure it was Westphal that wanted to trade Cuz or if it was Cuz that didn't want to play play for Westphal and asked (allegedly) to be traded. This confrontation make me wonder how well Demarcus would do with Jerry Sloan, JVG or any of the other names thrown around.

 

[t-rex]

I am not sure it was Westphal that wanted to trade Cuz or if it was Cuz that didn't want to play play for Westphal and asked (allegedly) to be traded. This confrontation make me wonder how well Demarcus would do with Jerry Sloan, JVG or any of the other names thrown around.

I think the only coach that could succeed with Cousins is Calapari. That is if Cousins went back to Kentucky where there is no accountability. Let's take a look at all of the great centers in the NBA. Did any of them have the immaturity problems in their sophmore seasons like Cousins? Name me one? It's going to be a long road on the Cuz train folks. Talent only gets you so far.

 

[Spike]

Demarcus would be fine with a disciplinarian. Especially one with a pedigree of developing talent and being able to win. Winning trumps all.

 

[Padrino]

I am not sure it was Westphal that wanted to trade Cuz or if it was Cuz that didn't want to play play for Westphal and asked (allegedly) to be traded. This confrontation make me wonder how well Demarcus would do with Jerry Sloan, JVG or any of the other names thrown around.

that we just don't know. but a head coach of sloan's or van gundy's pedigree certainly demands much more respect than someone like paul westphal. that said, i have much less of a problem trading demarcus cousins because he's developed a toxic relationship with a high quality coach rather than a washed-up westphal. you've gotta give it a try, in my opinion. you have to put your team in a position to succeed during the small window available to keep them together, to convince them that the winning will come. an inexperienced coach can get it done. scott brooks has proved it with the thunder (though critics do consistently note his lack of offensive acumen, and his penchant for getting outcoached in the playoffs). mark jackson is proving it in golden state. keith smart isn't enjoying the same kind of success, however, and there are tangible reasons for that lack of success to be found in his coaching style. the laundry list is plastered all over this message board, and with evans' and cousins' contracts coming up this offseason and next, respectively, the window is rapidly shutting. you bring an experienced head coach in to help this team believe that it can win, before evans and cousins decide they can do it elsewhere...

 

[Agent23]

We are worse off as in there was no progress made in 2 years. This rebuild has been a failure so far.

 

[t-rex]

Demarcus would be fine with a disciplinarian. Especially one with a pedigree of developing talent and being able to win. Winning trumps all.

That remains to be seen. Is Keith Smart a disciplinarian. I highly doubt it. More like an enabler.

 

[Kingster]

I am not sure it was Westphal that wanted to trade Cuz or if it was Cuz that didn't want to play play for Westphal and asked (allegedly) to be traded. This confrontation make me wonder how well Demarcus would do with Jerry Sloan, JVG or any of the other names thrown around.

If you did have a coach with unquestioned credentials, then at least the uncertainty would be gone. That coach, whoever it might be, would decide whether Cousins goes or stays. As it is, Smart's credentials are highly questionable, so we don't know what to believe - whether the problem is the coach, whether it's Cousins, whether it's all of the above.

 

[Glenn]

I am not sure it was Westphal that wanted to trade Cuz or if it was Cuz that didn't want to play play for Westphal and asked (allegedly) to be traded. This confrontation make me wonder how well Demarcus would do with Jerry Sloan, JVG or any of the other names thrown around.

Every time someone has come down hard on Cuz, he has responded well. I think he would welcome a guy like Sloan. These coaches are not tough just to be mean. My understanding of why Cuz blew his stack at Westy is that he wanted a question asked about his role or something similar and Westy blew him off. In college, he asked many questions. He now has had two coaches in a row who have no answers. This has more possibility of causing him to blow his stack than a hard nosed coach who knows what he is doing and can explain what he is doing. I wish I had the link to the video of a couple games ago when someone asked Smart why he did a certain thing and his answer was something like "because I did." That won't sit well with Cousins and it wouldn't sit well with me.

 

[LWP777]

If you did have a coach with unquestioned credentials, then at least the uncertainty would be gone. That coach, whoever it might be, would decide whether Cousins goes or stays. As it is, Smart's credentials are highly questionable, so we don't know what to believe - whether the problem is the coach, whether it's Cousins, whether it's all of the above.

I strongly believe it is all of the above..

 

[Bricklayer]

If you did have a coach with unquestioned credentials, then at least the uncertainty would be gone. That coach, whoever it might be, would decide whether Cousins goes or stays. As it is, Smart's credentials are highly questionable, so we don't know what to believe - whether the problem is the coach, whether it's Cousins, whether it's all of the above.

Yep. I have many reasons for wanting a real coach here, but that is one of the largest. We have talent. it is underacheiving. But we have covered it in absolute **** as an organization, and you just cannot tell who would or would not excel with real coaching, real guidance. Making almost any decision on players when they have been subjected to undending stupidity during their developmental years is just rolling the dice.

Get me a real coach. I mean an established winner. Somebody who has proven he can get it done, then see who's wheat and chafe and I'm much more willing to pass judgement, because you finally have a solid basis for it. If Jeff Van Gundy comes in, who has coached Ewign to success, coached Yao to success, and Boogie fails to respond? Well then that can tell you oh, maybe Boogie =/= Ewing or Yao. Bring Keith Smart in who has never coached ANYBODY to success and Boogie fails to respond...well now, is that Boogie? Or is that Smart?

 

[mac]

I would say yes. We were better under Westphal than under Smart, Cousins' issues aside.

 

[Tyndel]

WP was a strange problem. We had Cousins first year when we actually ran an offense passes from the low post to cutters and the reke beno dynamic however he had very bad rotations also and he insisted on playing certain players to the detriment of the team. After landry was shipped and we started to play bigger we did better and aside from rekes feet there was a lot to imagine going forward. The next year he came back and and its almost like he gave up on working. His offense in his words was read and react. We looked directionless out there for his 7 games and every offseason move made since was terrible aside from IT at 60. This was the lockout season too instead of adding to the offense he was running the year before he changed everything up again...

We are in a much worse position then we were at the end of cousins rookie season. We aren't better however WP had given up or something and soured on Cousins so he wasn't the answer to fixing it.

 

[blackice]

bout the same to me, same head scratching coaching decisions and not giving players and defined roles. Just giving them a free for all to shoot and play as they please without zero accountability.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

As much as I hated westphal. We were better. I can barely even watch the games any more.

 

[Spike]

Sadly, we were better with Westphal. That's not saying much, though.

Somewhat related: Would our roster have gotten so tiny without a Nellie disciple bringing some input into the choices? It's an honest question - I don't know how much input Smart had in the process, but we went from a good sized team to tiny-town so quickly...

 

[Npliam]

If you did have a coach with unquestioned credentials, then at least the uncertainty would be gone. That coach, whoever it might be, would decide whether Cousins goes or stays. As it is, Smart's credentials are highly questionable, so we don't know what to believe - whether the problem is the coach, whether it's Cousins, whether it's all of the above.

Before Westphal came to the Kings he had won 60% of his games and had been to the finals. Those are pretty good credentials.

 

[Section 101]

Before Westphal came to the Kings he had won 60% of his games and had been to the finals. Those are pretty good credentials.

You left out he took over a 50 win team who just go Barkley and made it worse every year after the first. He also had problems with his best players every year.

 

[Bricklayer]

Before Westphal came to the Kings he had won 60% of his games and had been to the finals. Those are pretty good credentials.

that was my old initial hope/argument too. Get back some of that old magic. But fact of the matter was that was a long time ago, with a lot of failure inbetween, and the league had long since tired of him and exiled him, which is how he ended up hat in hand at our door willing to work for peanuts after a decade out of the show. Cousins aside, I still think he had moments of competence here, but the Cousins thing was part of a repeated pattern with him, and just as importantly, even his entire philsophy/theoretical strength was very ill suited to a young team. Telling a young
team "you guys just go out there, don't worry about positions or roles or anything, or plays or sets...just read and react!" while you are sitting over on the sidelines in a lounge chair sipping a mai tai, isn't going to result in many Ws. Still, it was the absoilutely stupid conflict with Cousins that made his dismissal absolutely necessary. He's shown that before at other stops. There is a nasty stream running underneath the smooth laid back looking core wiht that one.

 

[mac]

that was my old initial hope/argument too. Get back some of that old magic. But fact of the matter was that was a long time ago, with a lot of failure inbetween, and the league had long since tired of him and exiled him, which is how he ended up hat in hand at our door willing to work for peanuts after a decade out of the show. Cousins aside, I still think he had moments of competence here, but the Cousins thing was part of a repeated pattern with him, and just as importantly, even his entire philsophy/theoretical strength was very ill suited to a young team. Telling a young
team "you guys just go out there, don't worry about positions or roles or anything, or plays or sets...just read and react!" while you are sitting over on the sidelines in a lounge chair sipping a mai tai, isn't going to result in many Ws. Still, it was the absoilutely stupid conflict with Cousins that made his dismissal absolutely necessary. He's shown that before at other stops. There is a nasty stream running underneath the smooth laid back looking core wiht that one.

Wait wait ... this somehow sounds like some other coach I know. Can't quite put a finger on it ....

 

[ppine]

A great question, that is hard to answer. Smart has a hard time getting his players to stay motivated. Westphal was not a players' favorite but they put out more effort for him. Comparing the Warriors before and after Smart is sobering. The level of effort last night against the Warriors was at a much higher level than the average game this year. The Kings were competitive and looked like a legitimate NBA team. Many nights under Smart they just go thru the motions which is disturbing to watch. Westphal is probably a much better coach than he was given credit for in Sacto. He maybe was not a great fit here, especially with Cousins. It may be that Westphal has been around and does not suffer fools well. Most can agree that Smart is not the long-term answer. I have a lot of respect for English, Ray, and Jackson as coaches.

 

[pshn80]

Yes, in answer to OP's question. Ambiguous? No. Team is sometimes better and sometimes worse. And sometimes " you pick 'em". I really don't think we have a good idea yet what this team will do.

 

[kpm308]

Wait wait ... this somehow sounds like some other coach I know. Can't quite put a finger on it ....

I have had the suspicion for a while now that this whole read and react/globetrotter/triangle offense that we keep hearing our coaches talk about is more of a mandate from Petrie than actually something our coaches want. Westfal and Smart were both somewhat successful his first year, but in the second year tried to install a system that his players couldn't execute and that they didn't know how to coach.

With Petrie's love for the Princeton well known, it wouldn't suprise me that he is the one responsible for these poorly executed "systems" we have tried to install each of the last two offseasons. Just a past his prime GM trying to cling to the good old days when his "system" made him look like a genius.

 

[Prince_XY]

I have had the suspicion for a while now that this whole read and react/globetrotter/triangle offense that we keep hearing our coaches talk about is more of a mandate from Petrie than actually something our coaches want. Westfal and Smart were both somewhat successful his first year, but in the second year tried to install a system that his players couldn't execute and that they didn't know how to coach.

With Petrie's love for the Princeton well known, it wouldn't suprise me that he is the one responsible for these poorly executed "systems" we have tried to install each of the last two offseasons. Just a past his prime GM trying to cling to the good old days when his "system" made him look like a genius.

Petrie is just a GM.

The system we are trying to use, the kind of players we draft and trade for, and whatever goes wrong in this franchise - are all on the Maloofs and never on the GM. In fact, to some posters our GM is infallible!

 

[Chupacabra]

I think the team/roster is better but the lack of coaching and player development has caused stagnation. I dont think the team is worse. Our sole REAL problem lies with the owners. Fix the ownership situation and everything starts to turn around.