Idle Offseason Musings

[Entity]

Just had a thought today and really had nowhere to post it as it didn't deserve its own thread and really didn't belong in an existing thread. So I thought to myself maybe I should start a thread for exactly this kind of situation for people so here it is. Post your thoughts, feelings, anything KINGS that don't deserve its own thread.

My thought today.

I was thinking about how good Justin Williams looked in the summer league last year then I got to thinking about why. Of course he can rebound but he was getting easy baskets at the rim. Mostly because of Hawes setting him up right at the basket. Therefore Hawes made him better. Chris Webber used to make players around him better.

Now Justin Williams never at any time made Hawes or anybody for that matter a better player. On that same thought neither does Mikki. In fact Mikki cost teamates many of assist therefore makeing himself and others worse. Anyway I digress. Mikkie brings nothing to the either end of the floor that makes his teamates around him better. Justin Williams had a double double once against Memphis in 06-07. In that same game Brad had a triple double. About 5 of his assist were setting up Justin up close i.e. Hawes in summer league last year.

Now for my point. with Jason Thompson being described as a good passer with handling skills and court vision. Does he posses the talent of making teamates better? If so it may show in the summer league this year. He may indeed compliment Hawes and both of them feed off of each other making one another better. I think with that skill alone already sets him obove Moore. If he can match the same stats as Moore 9pts 6reb 0.5ast he is equal to Mikki but, his skillset should enable him to not only gets those stats easily but, surpass intagibles by making others better because of his passing, court vision and ball handling. All traits Mikki does no posses.

 

[Entity]

BTW don't feel obligated to reply to my post or others. If you have a thought or feeling you want to share, go right ahead. No need to stay on same subject which is what I created this thread for.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I don't really believe in the whole idea of making teammates better, I think better players can create better opportunities for their teammates, but they still have to put themselves in positions to capitalize on it and then execute. It takes more than just passing ability to be a creator, you have to be a legit scoring threat as well, draw the defense, and then get the ball to your teammate. So Thompson has to prove to be a scoring threat if he's going to be able to take advantage of his ball handling/passing skills.

 

[hrdboild]

"Making your teammates better" is about five players who play together being greater as a team than simply the sum of their individual talents. Players like Kobe get criticized because their game plan is the same whether they're playing one-on-one or five-on-five: get by your defender and drive to the hole or take the open jump shot. When they make passes to the open man it's more often than not because their first option, scoring, was taken away by the defense (usually because of a double or triple team). Now someone like Chris Paul, on the other hand, is more often than not driving to set up another player. They have in their mind the angle that they are going to drive at and where the pass is going to take place before they even start the drive. The other three players will set the screens, space the floor, or spot up on the three point line in the event of a double team in the paint that leaves them open. Recognizing that you have four other players on the court with you and the most efficient way to score is to act together is what separates good individual players from good team players. Not every person out there needs to be the shot creator, in fact if you have five players who all think that's their role, you're going to have a tougher time than if you have versatile players who are willing to set the picks and move without the ball to get their teammates open. It's definitely not a myth. Some players are better at the team game than others and that's where the label comes from.

 

[Gary]

Thompson played with his brother. A lot was said about them playing off each others strengths/weaknesses, and Rider got a lot better once they had a year or so to play together. I think Thompson is the type of player that will not hurt you (by fumbling passes or missing open shots) but I don't think he will help right away. Give him a year or two, and for gods sake draft his brother next year in the second round. His brother plays SF, and he's pretty dang good when playing with Jason.

 

[CruzDude]

Vlade made a lot of the Kings look and play better for 3 years. Brad has too as evidenced by his triple-doubles a few years ago. But Brad needs better players around him than last year or two then his ball handling and outside scoring help others. They say MJ made his players better but hell, he had really good role players around him.

With RonRon the past 2 years it was tough to get really good role players as most didn't know what their role was 'cause no one knew what RonRon was going to do.

Beno brings a steady PG skill set that has been needed for some time. Kevin needs some scoring threats around him to take the pressure off and become even better. I agree with the Mikki assessment. His poor hands drive me nuts every game. His energy covers up some of his weaknesses.

I think Salmons can bring an All-Star quality to the 3. Brad could have a second breakout year and bring Hawes along quicker but I see some struggle if the Kings get away from that high post offense of the past 9 years. "But the time has come", the walrus said, "to talk of many things: of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings, and why the sea is boiling hot and whether pigs have wings". (with due respect to Lewis Carroll in 1872). The "sea" in this case is the Western Conference and the "pigs", well that could be RonRon or ......!? Seemed appropriate for an "Idle Offseason Musing"........

 

[bajaden]

Thompson played with his brother. A lot was said about them playing off each others strengths/weaknesses, and Rider got a lot better once they had a year or so to play together. I think Thompson is the type of player that will not hurt you (by fumbling passes or missing open shots) but I don't think he will help right away. Give him a year or two, and for gods sake draft his brother next year in the second round. His brother plays SF, and he's pretty dang good when playing with Jason.

First let me say that I agree with you on Jason's brother, and how they played together. However, Jason played pretty well with the rest of the players on his team. He is a good passer and he handles the ball very well for a big man. The first time I saw him go end to end dribbling the ball behind his back and do a no look pass to a finisher, who did happen to be his brother, I was reminded of the first time I saw Wilt Chamberlin do the same thing in college. PLEASE.. I'm not comparing him to Wilt. But people forget that Wilt had guard skills also when he came out of college.

Now onto my random musings. Making everyone else around you better. A commonly used phrase. To argue its true meaning is to actually argue semantics, which I don't care to do. Lets just say that I would prefer a team of players that have good court vision and can pass the ball. Being athletic is also nice, because speed and jumping ability doesn't hurt. But the skill level is primary. Whether its drafted or developed, or both.

In the time it takes you to dribble the ball once, you can also pass the ball. People get confused in thinking you defend the player. Semantics again. Actually, you defend the ball. The quicker the ball moves, the harder it is to defend. I honestly don't think any player ever scored a basket without the ball. Now this is basketball 101. You would think that more professional players would pass the ball instead of dribbling the ball. Drives me nuts sometimes.

So give me a good passing, pass first, point guard. Put 4 other good passing players, who can also catch the ball, on the floor with him, and you'll be amazed how much better he can make those players. Put 4 stone handed players out there with him, well, you get the picture. Jason is a good passer and he has good hands. Ditto, Hawes. K. Mart has pretty good hands, but he needs to work on his passing ability. He's not terrible, but he's less than good.

I also think I just described why I don't like Artest on this team. Salmon's come's in a close second, saved only by the fact that when dribbles the ball too much, he's actually doing something with it. Like driving to the basket etc. In general, I have just have no use for a player that blows half the shot clock dribbling the ball.

By the way, I wonder if Jason's brother will grow another 2 or 3 inches....

 

[Vlade4GM]

"Making your teammates better" is about five players who play together being greater as a team than simply the sum of their individual talents. Players like Kobe get criticized because their game plan is the same whether they're playing one-on-one or five-on-five: get by your defender and drive to the hole or take the open jump shot. When they make passes to the open man it's more often than not because their first option, scoring, was taken away by the defense (usually because of a double or triple team). Now someone like Chris Paul, on the other hand, is more often than not driving to set up another player. They have in their mind the angle that they are going to drive at and where the pass is going to take place before they even start the drive. The other three players will set the screens, space the floor, or spot up on the three point line in the event of a double team in the paint that leaves them open. Recognizing that you have four other players on the court with you and the most efficient way to score is to act together is what separates good individual players from good team players. Not every person out there needs to be the shot creator, in fact if you have five players who all think that's their role, you're going to have a tougher time than if you have versatile players who are willing to set the picks and move without the ball to get their teammates open. It's definitely not a myth. Some players are better at the team game than others and that's where the label comes from.

Well, besides that I think you're completely off on your choice to use Kobe as an example of someone who doesn't create for others, your post doesn't contradict with what I've said. Chris Paul is a huge scoring threat, if he wasn't, his teammates wouldn't be as open as they are. I'm just trying to say that being unselfish and a passer is only part of being a creator. Luke Walton is a good passer and he's unselfish, but since he's a pretty mediocre scoring threat he really doesn't create much for his teammates because the defense just backs off of him and closes in on the rest of the team while he clanks another jumper. I just don't like the term "making your teammmates better" because it's really a BS line, one player can't make their teammates be anything, they can only create high percentage opportunities, it's up to the rest of them to get in the right spot and execute.

Not trying to take away from Thompson, just commenting that it takes more than passing/vision and unselfish to create offense for others.

 

[mac]

Yup. Well with regards to the passing dribbling thing, dribbling allows you to move the ball inside with less chance of an interception. It's very difficult to just keep passing and passing without the defense getting a steal.

 

[bajaden]

Yup. Well with regards to the passing dribbling thing, dribbling allows you to move the ball inside with less chance of an interception. It's very difficult to just keep passing and passing without the defense getting a steal.

Dribble penetration is an important part of the game, as long as its done with a purpose. As far as passing the ball too much, I don't think that I have ever seen a team pass the ball too much. Its far too often the opposite.

By the way, more turnovers are caused by players dribbling into the paint with nowhere to go than by smart passing of the basketball. Did I mention that you need people who know how to pass the ball.

 

[creAtivetfh]

Dribble penetration is an important part of the game, as long as its done with a purpose. As far as passing the ball too much, I don't think that I have ever seen a team pass the ball too much. Its far too often the opposite.

By the way, more turnovers are caused by players dribbling into the paint with nowhere to go than by smart passing of the basketball. Did I mention that you need people who know how to pass the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c84syAl07s

 

[quick dog]

Interesting muse du jour.

 

[bajaden]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c84syAl07s

Ha Ha, thats a good one. I said passing the ball is important to get an open shot. However, you do need to take the open shot when its there. That was an example of too much of a good thing.

Still, it was more fun to watch, than watching one player just stand on the perimiter and dribble the ball.

 

[hrdboild]

Well, besides that I think you're completely off on your choice to use Kobe as an example of someone who doesn't create for others, your post doesn't contradict with what I've said. Chris Paul is a huge scoring threat, if he wasn't, his teammates wouldn't be as open as they are. I'm just trying to say that being unselfish and a passer is only part of being a creator. Luke Walton is a good passer and he's unselfish, but since he's a pretty mediocre scoring threat he really doesn't create much for his teammates because the defense just backs off of him and closes in on the rest of the team while he clanks another jumper. I just don't like the term "making your teammmates better" because it's really a BS line, one player can't make their teammates be anything, they can only create high percentage opportunities, it's up to the rest of them to get in the right spot and execute.

Not trying to take away from Thompson, just commenting that it takes more than passing/vision and unselfish to create offense for others.

Chris Paul is a scoring threat because defenders have to respect his ability to pass the ball. Same thing with Steve Nash. They get open shots because the defense has decided that letting them shoot the ball is a safer option than giving up an open layup. To be a dominant offensive player you have to be able to score as well as set up other people to score, I don't disagree with that, but you're talking about "making your teammates better" and anybody who can come off a screen and throw a pass for an open layup is doing that, regardless of whether or not they are scoring themselves. No they can't literally "make" another player be anything, but anybody in the NBA should be able to make an open layup and you don't usually get those unless you have a fast break or somebody who can play off the defense and get you the ball in position to score. Give me a player like Luke Walton and actually run some plays for him with screeners and cuts to the basket and I bet he nets 10 assists a game even without much ability to score. That's adding at least 20 points to the scoreboard and doing so a lot more efficiently than Kobe taking 20-25 shots.

I don't know how any fan of the Kings can say that players making each other better is a fallacy. If you watched the Kings in 2003 without Webber, they scored half their points off open layups because they had five players on the floor with above average court vision and passing ability and ran an offense designed to create open layups. With all due respect to Lebron James and Kobe Bryant, their 1 on 5 offense may be effective but it sure isn't pretty and it's really only as effective as it is because the refs bail them out with foul calls far too much.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Chris Paul is a scoring threat because defenders have to respect his ability to pass the ball. Same thing with Steve Nash. They get open shots because the defense has decided that letting them shoot the ball is a safer option than giving up an open layup. To be a dominant offensive player you have to be able to score as well as set up other people to score, I don't disagree with that, but you're talking about "making your teammates better" and anybody who can come off a screen and throw a pass for an open layup is doing that, regardless of whether or not they are scoring themselves. No they can't literally "make" another player be anything, but anybody in the NBA should be able to make an open layup and you don't usually get those unless you have a fast break or somebody who can play off the defense and get you the ball in position to score. Give me a player like Luke Walton and actually run some plays for him with screeners and cuts to the basket and I bet he nets 10 assists a game even without much ability to score. That's adding at least 20 points to the scoreboard and doing so a lot more efficiently than Kobe taking 20-25 shots.

I don't know how any fan of the Kings can say that players making each other better is a fallacy. If you watched the Kings in 2003 without Webber, they scored half their points off open layups because they had five players on the floor with above average court vision and passing ability and ran an offense designed to create open layups. With all due respect to Lebron James and Kobe Bryant, their 1 on 5 offense may be effective but it sure isn't pretty and it's really only as effective as it is because the refs bail them out with foul calls far too much.

I'm not trying to say that their passing/vision isn't apart of their scoring, but they ARE scoring threats, they can pull up and sink jumpers and get to the basket and finish. Nash can pull up and sink a shot from anywhere on the court, he can also fall away with defenders in his face and make shots.

But the thing is you're not talking one player making another player better, you're talking a team concept creating higher percentage shots. Probably just talking semantics here, but I don't like passing ability getting all the credit for creating shots.

That team had very good scoring threats. Obviously an effective offensive scheme improved their looks, as team strategies are dsigned to do, but you can't do it without scoring threats out there to draw defenders. That team had a ton of good shooters on it.

I've seen plenty of Luke Walton and there is a huge difference between what he did last year and what he did most of the year before. He was much better at creating scoring opportunities a couple years ago, because he was hitting his shots and scoring in the low post. He didn't do that last year and he was largely ineffective.

The lakers were one of the best assist teams in the NBA, how did they do that if Kobe is so disruptive to a passing game?

 

[bajaden]

I'm not trying to say that their passing/vision isn't apart of their scoring, but they ARE scoring threats, they can pull up and sink jumpers and get to the basket and finish. Nash can pull up and sink a shot from anywhere on the court, he can also fall away with defenders in his face and make shots.

But the thing is you're not talking one player making another player better, you're talking a team concept creating higher percentage shots. Probably just talking semantics here, but I don't like passing ability getting all the credit for creating shots.

That team had very good scoring threats. Obviously an effective offensive scheme improved their looks, as team strategies are dsigned to do, but you can't do it without scoring threats out there to draw defenders. That team had a ton of good shooters on it.

I've seen plenty of Luke Walton and there is a huge difference between what he did last year and what he did most of the year before. He was much better at creating scoring opportunities a couple years ago, because he was hitting his shots and scoring in the low post. He didn't do that last year and he was largely ineffective.

The lakers were one of the best assist teams in the NBA, how did they do that if Kobe is so disruptive to a passing game?

You know, I think you guys are really in agreement. Your just quibling over the details, and the use of a commonly used phrase. I think were all in agreement that its better to have players that can shoot, pass, catch the ball and accompany all that with good court vision and basketball IQ.

Five of them on the floor at the same time would really be good.

 

[GeraldWallace#3]

Just though I'd say......
Justin has joined Oklahoma's summer team

He's been working on his free throw lol

1 for 36

 

[CruzDude]

.... musing on, as it IS 5 o'clock somewhere. Hmmm. One musing that summer league won't necessary help me with is who we get for RonRon......................... OMG, hmmm. My view is Kings should get a "starter for a starter". OR, really good young 3/4 player and a 1st rounder or two. But then my musings went on, and on and........

Muse-A Shawn Marion ($16.4M, expiring) for RonRon ($8.4M, expiring) and SAR ($6.2M) plus a 1st rounder. Marion is one of the best rebounding SF in the league, great scorer, not the defender RonRon is. Marion would be THE STAR on the Kings with sub-stars in Kevin and Hawes (not too far down the road) and the steady Brad. Marion wanted to be the Star in PHX but not with Nash and Stoudamire, and in MIA but not with Wade there.

Muse-B. It's interesting that in the Fantasy Basketball Cheat Sheet for SF a year ago, Marion is ranked #1, Odom #13, Jefferson #14 and our RonRon #18.

And in baselinespin.com, their effeciency rankings for SF in 07/08 put Marion #3, Hedo #8, RonRon #14, Odom at #14 in PF, Luol Deng #20, FA Matt Barnes at #23.

All of which just confuses me. At 14 pts and 10.6 rebs, Odom seems a perfect fit as RonRon would be to the Lakers. Too bad they are same conference. But Marion makes more sense and would let Kings trade 2 to get 1 and let him be the star he wants to be.

Blahhh, need a D&D... Dathe&Diet, a Sailor Jerry's Spiced Rum and Diet Coke. Here comes that TDOS musings hangover already.

 

[VF21]

My view is Kings should get a "starter for a starter". OR, really good young 3/4 player and a 1st rounder or two...

Sorry, CD. My musings are more along the line of "anything with a pulse" to "pulse optional."

 

[fiction916]

anything good from the Seattle situation?

I don't know if it's a signal of some sort that the Maloofs voted in favor of the Sonics move, but what I'm pretty pleased about hearing is this little detail of allowing the name/colors/logo of the Super Sonics to remain with the city of Seattle. perhaps it doesn't matter much to the largest city in Washington, home of two other pro teams, but for this little community we've [Sacramentans] been building here, it's nice to know that if the worst happend and our current roster were to change venues, it may be possible for that purple and black to still stand for something in Cow-Town, California.

 

[bajaden]

My at the moment musing is whether I'll get up in the morning and read about Ron Ron's departure.. Probably not, but at least I'll probably read about Beno signing his contract. Looks like Brand is going east to Philly and Maggette is going to the Warriors. I guess we can remove The Clips from the playoff list.

I hope Baron's happy down there in La La land with no one to pass the ball to. Anyway, things should start to get a little more interesting after midnight.. Sweet dreams.

 

[tyrant]

1.trade ron. he doesnt want to be here and we dont want him here. he talks too much and he wants too much attention. his skill isnt worth the trouble and headache. why didnt we just trade him for maggette. didnt they make the same amount.

2. dont sign garcia. a 6th man on a championship contender gives you a big spark off the bench. a 14-16ppg scorer. he is instant offense and instant energy. not an instant mistake. with a powerful starting lineup a sixth man doesnt have to be that good. it helps, but we got lucky with bobby jackson. if we can keep garcia at a low cost then great. im talking no more than 3 mill. i feel that he is a decent role player. i feel that we can find a great 6th man. garcia isnt the guy