I Thomas

[mac]

I have a lot of love for IT - as a scorer. What I disagree with is some of the posters on the board, Kingster included, that insist that Isaiah Thomas is a pure PG who runs our offense perfectly and makes us one of the best offensive teams in the league or something like that, and that gets Cousins multiple easy baskets a game and runs a perfect pick and roll second only to Steve Nash (I exaggerate) and other nonsense like that. The stats and games show that that is entirely untrue and inaccurate. Isaiah Thomas is not by any means a pure PG, or he'd be averaging at very least 5-6 assists per game. But as far as him as a 3rd scoring option? Perfectly fine with that and I must say I'm very happy with his ability to hit 3s. We haven't really seen any top-notch defenders guard him, but I find him more valuable than Thornton at this point.

I will say this though. Guys like Kingster and Gary criticize Tyreke because even when he goes out there and puts up stats the team doesn't win, and there apparently isn't any ball movement and stuff like that. Well the same thing just happened with Isaiah Thomas. Only in Tyreke's case he's critcized for not delivering a perfect pass to John Salmons in the corner last year, and is thus responsible for Salmons' poor shooting. Funnily enough Salmons seems to be shooting just fine this season. Or how about that Tyreke only ever passes to guys with 1 second on the shotclock and stuff like that? But apparently when IT goes out and scores a bunch, it's not his fault that the rest of the team sucked, and he gets credit for being the only one to play well.

 

[Heuge]

I'm fairly sure if you look at it IT did not "Give up 10 threes"

Unless you are trying to say that IT didnt play that poor of defense, Im not sure what this distinction matters. If you are trying to say he didnt play bad defense I question your sanity.

 

[UK_King]

Unless you are trying to say that IT didnt play that poor of defense, Im not sure what this distinction matters. If you are trying to say he didnt play bad defense I question your sanity.

I'm trying to say what i said. "IT didn't give up 10 threes"

the distinction matters* because hyperbole based on things that didn't happen annoy me.

*to me

 

[Prince_XY]

Isaiah Thomas gets 34 points and nobody mentions it. Evans gets 20 and everyone wants to celebrate his great game against Dallas. I don't get it.

You won't ever get it, maybe because you really haven't played competitive basketball.

There is a reason why Evans was picked at #4 and IT in the second round.

Plus, just look at their size, talent, and defensive potential and you'll know why any sign of improvement on Evans (and not on IT) gets the knowledgeable posters of this board really more excited.

Maybe we're closer with Evans (and not with IT) to being a contending team if he, who happens to be 20/5/5 ROY by the way, realized his full potential?

IMO, one just have to use his common sense to know the difference.

 

[Prince_XY]

IT played great. Unfortunately, he's not appreciated on this board. He's too small; he takes away shots from Tyreke and Cousins; he doesn't play defense. All of which is BS.

He is too small. This is not BS when his height is 5' 9".

He takes away shots from Tyreke and Cousins. This is not BS, just look how many shot attempts he had. I thought he is supposed to be the facilitator or pure PG?

He doesn' play defense. Now, THIS IS BS.

The truth is he plays honest defense. But since he is too small to be effective in defense against full-sized PGs, it will always look as though he does not play defense.

 

[Prince_XY]

Maybe cause Isaiah took a ridiculous amount of shots, especially for a PG, in a 30 point loss. AND he gave up a career high and a franchise record of 3s made by freakin Chalmers.

Excellent conclusion.

 

[Heuge]

I'm trying to say what i said. "IT didn't give up 10 threes"

the distinction matters* because hyperbole based on things that didn't happen annoy me.

*to me

There is no hyperbole being used. The facts are the facts. Sure he wasnt on the floor for all of the threes, but the defense played by the PG position was atrociousness. Whether he allowed 7,8,9, or 10 is completely irrelevant.

 

[UK_King]

He led the team in assists.

 

[UK_King]

There is no hyperbole being used. The facts are the facts. Sure he wasnt on the floor for all of the threes, but the defense played by the PG position was atrociousness. Whether he allowed 7,8,9, or 10 is completely irrelevant.

haha it's not a fact to say "he gave up 10 threes" if he gave up 7 8 or 9 (i suspect he didn't even give up 7 but hey ho)

We gave up a huge number of points to the NBA champs, we were outplayed and out thought. Simple as that. The team defense as a whole stunk.

 

[Heuge]

haha it's not a fact to say "he gave up 10 threes" if he gave up 7 8 or 9 (i suspect he didn't even give up 7 but hey ho)

We gave up a huge number of points to the NBA champs, we were outplayed and out thought. Simple as that. The team defense as a whole stunk.

He played bad defense. He usually does. That is my biggest (I guess I can intend the pun) gripe with him as a player.

He gave up a bunch of threes to an average NBA player. Quiveling as you are, doesn't state you case well.

 

[ppine]

Padrino,
A loss is a loss. It shows up as the second number in the standings.

 

[Padrino]

Padrino,
A loss is a loss. It shows up as the second number in the standings.

indeed. however, the general thrust of your initial post was that isaiah thomas deserved praise for ball-hawking his way to 30+ in what was, essentially, 48 minutes worth of garbage time against the miami heat, while tyreke, shortly after returning from injury, did not deserve as much praise for contributing 20 in the flow of the offense in an overtime loss to the magic, which was a winnable game, had keith smart not "coached" his way to another loss. impact on a single game can be measured regardless of the results in the win/loss columns. in fact, it's prudent to allow for such considerations on a young, unproven, losing team, otherwise you'll simply never effectively evaluate the talent you have. yes, "a loss is a loss," but when you've got 50-60 of them in a given season, you better know where your problems are, both individually and as a team, and thomas has proven to be terribly shaky on both sides of the ball. his defensive performance against mario effing chalmers in one of the kings' least watchable games of the season was flat out embarrassing. at that point, his total points scored are hardly worthy of note. here's a nifty stat for those paying attention: during the string of games tyreke missed due to injury, the kings managed to slump their way to their familiar place at the basement of the nba's defensive statistics. so much for that encouraging early start on D...

 

[nickmcclure]

why can't we just praise IT without bashing reke?

/thread.
It's hard to read your threads when you make a solid point (IT had a great game) then seconds later completely contradict it (Reke did too but for some reason you're upset about it.)

 

[ppine]

Nick,
Evans gets tired. In the 4th quarter at crunch time he was elected to bring the ball up. He played slow ball and caused the Kings offense to collapse when they needed to push the ball like the other 3 quarters. He did some positive things, as I mentioned above, but completely handed the game to the opposition.

 

[panda]

I don't want to spoil the game thread (after beating the Wiz) with this, but IT is just irritating. Yes he had a great game, he scored alot of points, but he doesn't play team ball. I was trying to determine what it was exactly, sure there is the hero ball and mini-Kobe tactics, there is the unwillingness to involve others and running straight into a quadruple team instead of passing, there's also the 30 foot jumpers and mysterious gravitational field that doesn't allow the ball to leave his greedy hands.

But that isn't really why he irks me. Those are just the symptoms. What bothers me is IT making himself look good while making others look bad.

IT tries to carry the team instead of bringing the team up, he doesn't allow others to get in a rhythm or get in any sort of position. People have commented on Cousins looking disinterested or Jimmer being out of position or JT not getting rebounds, all possible side effects of mini-Kobe. I understand IT wanting to prove that he can play in the NBA, but he is doing it at the expense of others that are growing less likely to help him.

Does anyone really want IT to be the focus of this offense? Does IT allow others the chance to be the focus?

Its a catch-22, only IT can because IT won't give others the ball.

 

[rainmaker]

I don't want to spoil the game thread (after beating the Wiz) with this, but IT is just irritating. Yes he had a great game, he scored alot of points, but he doesn't play team ball. I was trying to determine what it was exactly, sure there is the hero ball and mini-Kobe tactics, there is the unwillingness to involve others and running straight into a quadruple team instead of passing, there's also the 30 foot jumpers and mysterious gravitational field that doesn't allow the ball to leave his greedy hands.

But that isn't really why he irks me. Those are just the symptoms. What bothers me is IT making himself look good while making others look bad.

IT tries to carry the team instead of bringing the team up, he doesn't allow others to get in a rhythm or get in any sort of position. People have commented on Cousins looking disinterested or Jimmer being out of position or JT not getting rebounds, all possible side effects of mini-Kobe. I understand IT wanting to prove that he can play in the NBA, but he is doing it at the expense of others that are growing less likely to help him.

Does anyone really want IT to be the focus of this offense? Does IT allow others the chance to be the focus?

Its a catch-22, only IT can because IT won't give others the ball.

Here's a question, although I don't know the answer. Maybe I'll look it up.

But how often when IT has a good game, a high scoring game since high assist games are rare, do others have a good game. When he went off against Mia, no none else had a decent game. Last night, no one else had a decent game, maybe Reke, but he was severely limited, only 10 shots to IT's 16, leading us in shots again.

He needs the ball to be effective, and when he's feeling good about himself others rarely get a rhythm. Far too much he dictates just how much of an effect our top two players can have on a game, and the large majority of the time it isn't enough. He doesn't seem to see a difference in his mind in setting up Outlaw or Reke, Cuz or JT, when in reality there's a huge difference.

 

[UK_King]

I don't want to spoil the game thread (after beating the Wiz) with this, but IT is just irritating. Yes he had a great game, he scored alot of points, but he doesn't play team ball. I was trying to determine what it was exactly, sure there is the hero ball and mini-Kobe tactics, there is the unwillingness to involve others and running straight into a quadruple team instead of passing, there's also the 30 foot jumpers and mysterious gravitational field that doesn't allow the ball to leave his greedy hands.

But that isn't really why he irks me. Those are just the symptoms. What bothers me is IT making himself look good while making others look bad.

IT tries to carry the team instead of bringing the team up, he doesn't allow others to get in a rhythm or get in any sort of position. People have commented on Cousins looking disinterested or Jimmer being out of position or JT not getting rebounds, all possible side effects of mini-Kobe. I understand IT wanting to prove that he can play in the NBA, but he is doing it at the expense of others that are growing less likely to help him.

Does anyone really want IT to be the focus of this offense? Does IT allow others the chance to be the focus?

Its a catch-22, only IT can because IT won't give others the ball.

Aaron Bruski does.

as for making himself look good while making others look bad? hmm agree to disagree on that one.

Is he a pure point, no we all know that, his game is to score but his assists were there last night.

It's on the coach to feature the best players, and if he doesn't like the way IT is running things, then it's on him to make sure he either puts him to the bench or gets in IT's ear.

I don't blame IT personally.

 

[LWP777]

I don't want to spoil the game thread (after beating the Wiz) with this, but IT is just irritating. Yes he had a great game, he scored alot of points, but he doesn't play team ball. I was trying to determine what it was exactly, sure there is the hero ball and mini-Kobe tactics, there is the unwillingness to involve others and running straight into a quadruple team instead of passing, there's also the 30 foot jumpers and mysterious gravitational field that doesn't allow the ball to leave his greedy hands.

But that isn't really why he irks me. Those are just the symptoms. What bothers me is IT making himself look good while making others look bad.

IT tries to carry the team instead of bringing the team up, he doesn't allow others to get in a rhythm or get in any sort of position. People have commented on Cousins looking disinterested or Jimmer being out of position or JT not getting rebounds, all possible side effects of mini-Kobe. I understand IT wanting to prove that he can play in the NBA, but he is doing it at the expense of others that are growing less likely to help him.

Does anyone really want IT to be the focus of this offense? Does IT allow others the chance to be the focus?

Absolutely great post. I think this is extremely well said and is a very good breakdown of what is wrong with IT. It's hard sometimes to put your finger on it because he's such a likable kid and he plays hard.

Its a catch-22, only IT can because IT won't give others the ball.

I see what you did here. Do you?

 

[LWP777]

Here's a question, although I don't know the answer. Maybe I'll look it up.

But how often when IT has a good game, a high scoring game since high assist games are rare, do others have a good game. When he went off against Mia, no none else had a decent game. Last night, no one else had a decent game, maybe Reke, but he was severely limited, only 10 shots to IT's 16, leading us in shots again.

He needs the ball to be effective, and when he's feeling good about himself others rarely get a rhythm. Far too much he dictates just how much of an effect our top two players can have on a game, and the large majority of the time it isn't enough. He doesn't seem to see a difference in his mind in setting up Outlaw or Reke, Cuz or JT, when in reality there's a huge difference.

Maybe this is more of a reason to bring him off the bench as a scoring option. If he's playing well, great, he can be a volume shooter on the 2nd squad.....

 

[Kingster]

Here's a question, although I don't know the answer. Maybe I'll look it up.

But how often when IT has a good game, a high scoring game since high assist games are rare, do others have a good game. When he went off against Mia, no none else had a decent game. Last night, no one else had a decent game, maybe Reke, but he was severely limited, only 10 shots to IT's 16, leading us in shots again.

He needs the ball to be effective, and when he's feeling good about himself others rarely get a rhythm. Far too much he dictates just how much of an effect our top two players can have on a game, and the large majority of the time it isn't enough. He doesn't seem to see a difference in his mind in setting up Outlaw or Reke, Cuz or JT, when in reality there's a huge difference.

Don't confuse cause and effect. IT shot a lot in that game because nobody was making shots and because he was hot. That's what I want from a point guard. It's another thing entirely if Cousins and Tyreke and Salmons were red hot and he's not giving them the ball.

 

[Spike]

Don't confuse cause and effect. IT shot a lot in that game because nobody was making shots and because he was hot. That's what I want from a point guard. It's another thing entirely if Cousins and Tyreke and Salmons were red hot and he's not giving them the ball.

...not sure if serious.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

...not sure if serious.

It's hard for me to disagree. It's certainly not like Cousins was doing anything out there, and it's not like IT was freezing him out - when Cuz got into the post, IT was getting him the ball. Cuz basically bombed out on five post-ups in the early first then hung around the perimeter for most of the game. He finally got back down there in the third and IT got him the ball four more times with which he did little. If Cuz isn't going to get involved on offense, somebody's got to shoot.

 

[Section 101]

It's hard for me to disagree. It's certainly not like Cousins was doing anything out there, and it's not like IT was freezing him out - when Cuz got into the post, IT was getting him the ball. Cuz basically bombed out on five post-ups in the early first then hung around the perimeter for most of the game. He finally got back down there in the third and IT got him the ball four more times with which he did little. If Cuz isn't going to get involved on offense, somebody's got to shoot.

IT has been missing Cuz on the pick and roll every time. There was a play against the Thunder where both defenders were on IT and nobody was withing 10 feet of Cuz down the lane. Cuz was super pissed he didn't get the pass. Next time down IT wanted another screen and Cuz told him to **** off. I think there has been an issue of IT freezing Cuz out since.

 

[mac]

IT has been missing Cuz on the pick and roll every time. There was a play against the Thunder where both defenders were on IT and nobody was withing 10 feet of Cuz down the lane. Cuz was super pissed he didn't get the pass. Next time down IT wanted another screen and Cuz told him to **** off. I think there has been an issue of IT freezing Cuz out since.

IT doesn't pass in pick and rolls. It just doesn't happen. I could never understand why some felt he was our best pick and roll player - all of last season he was setting Cuz up mainly on pick and pops. IT is a good passer, don't get me wrong - that pass he made to Evans cutting inside is evidence of that. But most of the time he just dribbles around probing, and is always looking to score first before he passes. Most of his assists come in transition/semi-transition situations.

 

[bajaden]

Here's a question, although I don't know the answer. Maybe I'll look it up.

But how often when IT has a good game, a high scoring game since high assist games are rare, do others have a good game. When he went off against Mia, no none else had a decent game. Last night, no one else had a decent game, maybe Reke, but he was severely limited, only 10 shots to IT's 16, leading us in shots again.

He needs the ball to be effective, and when he's feeling good about himself others rarely get a rhythm. Far too much he dictates just how much of an effect our top two players can have on a game, and the large majority of the time it isn't enough. He doesn't seem to see a difference in his mind in setting up Outlaw or Reke, Cuz or JT, when in reality there's a huge difference.

I would say that Cisco had a good game last night, but mainly because Jimmer, realizing that Cisco was hot, kept feeding him the ball. And to Thorntons credit, he also fed the ball to Cisco. I really don't want to be too critical of IT in last nights game. He did get more assists than usual, and I believe he tried to create for others. I think it just might be against his nature. No offense to the midgets of the world, but little guys tend to have a chip on their shoulder, and for some reason feel they have to constantly prove that their as good or better than anyone else.

 

[mac]

I would say that Cisco had a good game last night, but mainly because Jimmer, realizing that Cisco was hot, kept feeding him the ball. And to Thorntons credit, he also fed the ball to Cisco. I really don't want to be too critical of IT in last nights game. He did get more assists than usual, and I believe he tried to create for others. I think it just might be against his nature. No offense to the midgets of the world, but little guys tend to have a chip on their shoulder, and for some reason feel they have to constantly prove that their as good or better than anyone else.

I just wish that he would prove that by averaging 10 assists a game instead of trying to score 20. IT is a very natural leader and plays with a ton of heart. It would serve the team so much better if he used those characteristics to make others better and get them multiple easy shots on a consistent basis. His ability to score should be a bonus used when the defence plays off of him. Nash has an excellent offensive game, is a terrific shooter and in the past could get to the rim for his pullup shots at will. He still made passing his primary focus, and as a result he's one of the best PGs the NBA has had this decade.

 

[VF21]

I just wish that he would prove that by averaging 10 assists a game instead of trying to score 20. IT is a very natural leader and plays with a ton of heart. It would serve the team so much better if he used those characteristics to make others better and get them multiple easy shots on a consistent basis. His ability to score should be a bonus used when the defence plays off of him. Nash has an excellent offensive game, is a terrific shooter and in the past could get to the rim for his pullup shots at will. He still made passing his primary focus, and as a result he's one of the best PGs the NBA has had this decade.

I think it goes back to trust. Isaiah is a good guy but I don't think he has much trust in some of the other players on the court - and a lot of times I certainly wouldn't blame him. He wants to win and I've seen games where things click along very well, and there's faith and trust. Most of the time, though, things don't go well and, along with having to try and find things that work, he has to deal with the rotation/substitution pattern from Bizarro World.

I'm really starting to believe that if we had a coach who could put forth a consistent game plan we'd see a lot of improvement in the trust arena.

 

[Kingster]

IT has been missing Cuz on the pick and roll every time. There was a play against the Thunder where both defenders were on IT and nobody was withing 10 feet of Cuz down the lane. Cuz was super pissed he didn't get the pass. Next time down IT wanted another screen and Cuz told him to **** off. I think there has been an issue of IT freezing Cuz out since.

Just another day at the office for Cousins.

 

[Kingster]

I just wish that he would prove that by averaging 10 assists a game instead of trying to score 20. IT is a very natural leader and plays with a ton of heart. It would serve the team so much better if he used those characteristics to make others better and get them multiple easy shots on a consistent basis. His ability to score should be a bonus used when the defence plays off of him. Nash has an excellent offensive game, is a terrific shooter and in the past could get to the rim for his pullup shots at will. He still made passing his primary focus, and as a result he's one of the best PGs the NBA has had this decade.

I think we're expecting to much of a guy who has been in the league now for 1.5 years. It's almost like people think he's a 5-year vet. He's not. We always say how pg is probably the most difficult position in the NBA to play, yet somehow that principle doesn't apply to IT. Just like with every other player, I give young guys at least 3 years to see how they will improve. IT is no different. It's obvious at times that IT gets carried away and loses discipline on the floor. But I do think those time are getting fewer, and with his work ethic he should improve over time.

 

[mac]

I think we're expecting to much of a guy who has been in the league now for 1.5 years. It's almost like people think he's a 5-year vet. He's not. We always say how pg is probably the most difficult position in the NBA to play, yet somehow that principle doesn't apply to IT. Just like with every other player, I give young guys at least 3 years to see how they will improve. IT is no different. It's obvious at times that IT gets carried away and loses discipline on the floor. But I do think those time are getting fewer, and with his work ethic he should improve over time.

Well then stop treating him like some HOF PG who is the solution to all our offensive woes. Wasn't it you who suggested that IT would shoot .45 from 3 this season? And excuse me for saying this, but you did not extend the same patience to Evans, hiding behind the excuse that you thought he could be great and thus held him to higher standards.