How's Coach Smart's coaching this preseason so far
- Thread starter K F Jay
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In terms of actual "coaching" like running plays, managing rotations etc? Terrible. Non-existent. But in terms of getting the team to be more active on defense and trying to move the ball/ push the ball more - he's pretty successful. But the thing is that seems to be more of a good motivational job than a coaching one. Our defense still isn't very good, but what we're seeing is more hustle and communication defensively. It's still not like the top defensive teams that intentionally channel players towards certain spots where the help is and all.
As much as we all hated Westphal, we still saw evidence of plays being run, and you could expect those plays to be run a couple of times a game. Remember all the Beno back cuts? Or the Jermaine Taylor alleyoops off of pick and rolls? With Smart you don't see any fixed plays whatsoever. It's all just a bumbling mess of guys dribbling to the rim in the halfcourt, Cousins included. We're just fortunate that our guys are talented enough to create for themselves. When's the last time you saw Thornton or Jimmer curling off a screen for an elbow jumpshot? Or an intentional screen set to allow a backdoor cut?
As much as we all hated Westphal, we still saw evidence of plays being run, and you could expect those plays to be run a couple of times a game. Remember all the Beno back cuts? Or the Jermaine Taylor alleyoops off of pick and rolls? With Smart you don't see any fixed plays whatsoever. It's all just a bumbling mess of guys dribbling to the rim in the halfcourt, Cousins included. We're just fortunate that our guys are talented enough to create for themselves. When's the last time you saw Thornton or Jimmer curling off a screen for an elbow jumpshot? Or an intentional screen set to allow a backdoor cut?
UK_King
Starter
I disagree about "plays" not being run, the plays are there, well the "sets" are there you can see that simply by looking at the position of the players, whether it all comes off is another matter and thats down to reps. It seems to me the play is there a lot of the time but it's muffed a lot of the time which leads to poor spacing and having to go one on one. It's also about patience and reading the floor the too.
we're going for the triangle offense which is supposed to create space but it still seemed awful crowded to me at times vs the Lakers.
I do agree we don't utilise MT and JF shooting enough, why not have jimmer/MT go round the world? Why not set some down screens so they can pop out to the top of the key.
we're going for the triangle offense which is supposed to create space but it still seemed awful crowded to me at times vs the Lakers.
I do agree we don't utilise MT and JF shooting enough, why not have jimmer/MT go round the world? Why not set some down screens so they can pop out to the top of the key.
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
With a new system (triangle), 3 new potential starters (JJ, TRob and Brooks), a full pre-season, a jump-shooting Tyreke (supposedly), and the Maloof albatross around their neck, Coach has his hands fuller now than ever. He is doing a great job experimenting with rotations based on chemistry of certain players with certain others (chemistry in playing styles as well as personalities) based on three weeks of training camp that we don't get to see.
Tonight is game 5 of 7 in training camp. Tonight we should see a rotation intended to start the regular season. With so many changes and so many young players a final firm rotation might not be possible for a month or more. Once the winning gets ingrained then the rotation will fall out quite easily. This year the starting line up will not be a major item. Winning will be. So if Jimmer and Outlaw are the winning combo and not JJ and TRob, so be it. I'll be a very happy fan. Won't you all? If the Kings are winning?
Tonight is game 5 of 7 in training camp. Tonight we should see a rotation intended to start the regular season. With so many changes and so many young players a final firm rotation might not be possible for a month or more. Once the winning gets ingrained then the rotation will fall out quite easily. This year the starting line up will not be a major item. Winning will be. So if Jimmer and Outlaw are the winning combo and not JJ and TRob, so be it. I'll be a very happy fan. Won't you all? If the Kings are winning?
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I still don't see much of a system. We're still iso heavy with Cuz, who seems intent of forcing a shot just about everytime instead of playing off him with off the ball cuts/misdirection/movement, and his low assist rate shows that. There's also the aspect that Smart seems to have told just about everyone to shoot every open jumper you get. I've heard he's blowing whistles in practice and counting it as a turnover of players don't shoot an open shot.
I don't see what shots our "system" is looking for in the halfcourt. I don't see what easy shots we're creating. I don't see us even iso'ing Reke/Cuz in the places they prefer to be iso'd. Cuz 20 ft away repeatedly, with poor spacing? Reke not elbow extended or top of the key with a live dribble, but iso'd farther towards the baseline? Jimmer not setting up the offense at all and just looking for his shot, instead of playing him off the ball, while Brooks, the new guy hasn't played in 6 quarters? Repeated postups for JT and Chuck? Where's the backdoors/backcuts? Where's running shooters off screens in halfcourt sets? Where's Cuz at the elbow or in the post with cutters? Where's the spacing and guys drifting to the gaps when IT/Reke penetrate? I see the same crap I saw last year, no hierarchy, no half court sets, no defined roles or even attempt at defined roles, and instead we're just iso'ing Cuz anywhere on the court and hoping to improve off his improvement, while everyone else just jack it up when you see daylight.
Defense looks better though. But our players look confused as their roles are changing from game to game and the rotations change every game. 5th pre season game tonight so that should change. We need to see an actual rotation and starters coming out towards the end of the 1st and re entering with 5 mins left in the 2nd. Most of them, not just Cuz. Most other teams already are close to their regular season rotations. Ours are as screwy as ever. Not an excuse going into tonight or next week. We've been in camp for 3 weeks now.
I don't see what shots our "system" is looking for in the halfcourt. I don't see what easy shots we're creating. I don't see us even iso'ing Reke/Cuz in the places they prefer to be iso'd. Cuz 20 ft away repeatedly, with poor spacing? Reke not elbow extended or top of the key with a live dribble, but iso'd farther towards the baseline? Jimmer not setting up the offense at all and just looking for his shot, instead of playing him off the ball, while Brooks, the new guy hasn't played in 6 quarters? Repeated postups for JT and Chuck? Where's the backdoors/backcuts? Where's running shooters off screens in halfcourt sets? Where's Cuz at the elbow or in the post with cutters? Where's the spacing and guys drifting to the gaps when IT/Reke penetrate? I see the same crap I saw last year, no hierarchy, no half court sets, no defined roles or even attempt at defined roles, and instead we're just iso'ing Cuz anywhere on the court and hoping to improve off his improvement, while everyone else just jack it up when you see daylight.
Defense looks better though. But our players look confused as their roles are changing from game to game and the rotations change every game. 5th pre season game tonight so that should change. We need to see an actual rotation and starters coming out towards the end of the 1st and re entering with 5 mins left in the 2nd. Most of them, not just Cuz. Most other teams already are close to their regular season rotations. Ours are as screwy as ever. Not an excuse going into tonight or next week. We've been in camp for 3 weeks now.
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
From the Bee today:
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/10/21/4926820/smart-wants-to-mix-and-match.html#storylink=cpy
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/10/21/4926820/smart-wants-to-mix-and-match.html#storylink=cpy
UK_King
Starter
We get nice spacing in this set, IMO, horns. The bulls run this play all the time and they used it to get loads of open shots for Korver last year, this is exactly the plays we should be running for MT/JF.
There's loads of options but this time Tyreke gets right into the lane but misses the skip pass to a wide open Thornton and is blocked at the rim.
There's loads of options but this time Tyreke gets right into the lane but misses the skip pass to a wide open Thornton and is blocked at the rim.
Bballkingsrock
All-Star
O gosh, this is gonna be a longgg season.
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
From today's Bee article Coach sounds well directed in his approach given he has 11-12 "players" any of whom could get minutes any night:
"The film work we do now, what's being charted on the bench, everything we're doing now is the stuff we would do in the regular season."
And just because preparation is more like the regular season, it would be wrong to assume Smart is going to tighten his rotation to eight or nine players.
Smart admired how the San Antonio Spurs functioned last season.
Spurs coach Gregg Popovich was able to bring one of his best players off the bench (Manu Ginobili) while also mixing and matching lineups.
That's a reason Smart has used three different starting lineups in four preseason games. He wanted to see how players performed in different roles and with different lineups.
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/10/21/49...ix-and-match.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Name me all the successful teams who play a 10-12 man rotations nightly, and constantly switch roles/sub patterns.
There's really no correlation between what Pop has done and what Smart is doing. Pop values defense above all else. He brings Manu off the bench to surround Parker/Duncan with defensive role players and offensive specialists, to let Parker/Duncan dominate the ball, then Manu when he comes in, but it's all based around the best defensive lineups, not having three guys compete for the ball and not find a rhythm, and defined roles.
We're not doing any of that at the moment. Comparing anything Smart is doing to Pop is an insult to Pop. Is Pop encouraging Timmy to play 20ft from the basket like Smart is with Cuz? Does Pop not run a hell of a lot of plays off Timmy, which we don't do with Cuz? Does Pop make sure he has a player taller than TRob or Chuck on the floor at all times, unlike Smart? Does Pop have a set halfcourt system, one of the best in the league, or does he tell his guys, most of them, to shoot the first shot they get? Does Pop's tell his backup PG to be as aggressive as possible instead of setting up the offense? Does Pop ever run two undersized backcourt players together at the same time? Does Pop put Parker/Manu/Timmy in positions to succeed and get them the ball where they're at their best, unlike what Smart does with both Reke and Cuz? And it goes on.
I think Pop would have a good old laugh is someone told him what Smart is doing here is similar to what he's done in SA.
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I'd correct you there in pointing out that the Spurs have really been less of a defensive team the last few years. They've been focused on pushing the ball and scoring, but have still been a very successful team. But here's the thing - all their pieces fit their necessary roles. You have Bonner and Green to spread the floor, who are consistently getting wide open 3s out of their well executed offense. Splitter and Blair are both good role-playing bigs that run the pick and roll with Parker very well (and Blair saw a huge decrease in playing time once they got Diaw). Neal fills that 6th man scorer role, although he's not actually the 1st guy off the bench. But he's more of a pure scorer than Manu is.
So if we can have a roster that fits so perfectly, and a coach that teaches the team to execute their offense the way the Spurs do, by all means play 10-12 players every night. But I don't see our team meeting those conditions at all.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I agree with you. I'd say Pop still has a number of defensive role players and offensive specialists, but I'd also say those defensive role players aren't waht he once had. Doesn't mean imo that he doesn't stress defense, and more importantly overall balance, but I also don't think he has the same caliber of defenders. They don't have an in his prime Bowen anymore as an obvious example.
They did draft Leonard though, a defensive guy. Green is a good defender. They both add balance to the lineup. Diaw also adds balance. For the most part, Pop prefers two scorers and three defensive role players in the lineup, and Diaw while not a great defenders is pretty good on that end as well as versatile. Powell/Blair/Splitter are defensive players. Can finish inside, but they're job it to defend and hit the glass. SJax is a damn good defender at SF. The roster for the most part is three very good players in Parker/Manu/Timmy, and a bunch of guys who can play off them, and it's damn clear who plays off who and what the hierarchy is.
Other thing is given their system, whether Manu starts or comes off the bench, his role in the system doesn't change all that much. Everyone in SA is filling roles. We are far from that. Too many shooters, not enough creators, not playing off Reke/Cuz, etc.. I just don't see any similarities betweeen us and them.
DesertFox
Starter
Smart is playing the hand he has been dealt. There's still a logjam at guard, and while SF is clearly Tyreke's 3rd best position, after Johnson he is the best option there.
If IT/Brooks take all the PG minutes, (which shouldn't be the case, a 40/40/20 split with Reke getting 8+ min at PG should work) MT/Reke at 2/3 is bad, but better than any combination of Salmons/Outlaw/Garcia at SF.
A Thornton trade for a sweet shooting SF would balance things so much. I've advocated getting Dudley so many times, but I'll beat that drum as long as it is possible.
The Suns wanted a similar player in Eric Gordon, and have a bunch of late 1sts from the LAL.
The Kings have a 1st round pick going to CLE sometime in the next 3 years, so getting one back would be nice. The Kings would also save a little cash, balancing out the additional salary from exercising Jimmer's option.
If IT/Brooks take all the PG minutes, (which shouldn't be the case, a 40/40/20 split with Reke getting 8+ min at PG should work) MT/Reke at 2/3 is bad, but better than any combination of Salmons/Outlaw/Garcia at SF.
A Thornton trade for a sweet shooting SF would balance things so much. I've advocated getting Dudley so many times, but I'll beat that drum as long as it is possible.
The Suns wanted a similar player in Eric Gordon, and have a bunch of late 1sts from the LAL.
The Kings have a 1st round pick going to CLE sometime in the next 3 years, so getting one back would be nice. The Kings would also save a little cash, balancing out the additional salary from exercising Jimmer's option.
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
Tonights game kinda throws a damp rag on your points: beating the Lakers in their house with Howard getting 19 and 12 and the Kings using 13 players, 11 of which scored and making the last 10 points of the game. He just may be on to something. Yep, it is only one preseason game but it was a game the likes of which we've never seen.
Come on Cruz, one preseason game against a team really adjusting to new players vs basically all of nba history where this kind of coach tinkering has never really worked? If this kind of garbage from Smart continues in the regular season and we are successful with it, I (and the rest of the league) will be shocked.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I pick J) Same as last year.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Oh, this style has worked in the pre season before, I'm not doubting that. That isn't what I asked though. Here's what I'm getting at and it's obvious. What are the teams who've used 10-12 man rotations, changing roles and sub patterns every game, not subbing back in one or more of it's top 4 players for entire halves on a regular basis, and had regular and postseason success?
Show me where that's a successful blueprint.
The Denver Nuggets were highly successful last season with a 10-12 man rotation. The difference is we have an emerging superstar big man with Boogie to take us over the top
They actually only played 9 guys any substantial minutes and that was largely due to having a couple positions that were fairly weak. But I agree we have some personnel that shouldn't require us to go 10+ deep.
Smart as usual can talk a good game. I don't try and judge him based on preseason minutes he is giving. But I can tell you that based on the way he ran his rotations last year and some pure head scratching moments this preseason by using Salmons and Outlaw more minutes than they deserve, I'm not too optimistic. He might be one of the those coaches that are better when they have fewer players to choose from.
Entity
Hall of Famer
I have to correct you on one thing. Salmons played like 8 min in the first preseason game and he hasn't seen the floor since.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Salmons isnt traveling with the team right now, for unknown reasons
Section 101
All-Star
He hasn't been with the team since.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I'd like to see a Reke/MT backcourt for a few mins tonight. No reason not to try it since he's trying everything else.
I'd also like to see Smart sub back our starters in earlier. He has a real bad habit of sitting starters not named Cuz for far too long. Come the regular season I'll have zero patience for it.
I'd also like to see Smart sub back our starters in earlier. He has a real bad habit of sitting starters not named Cuz for far too long. Come the regular season I'll have zero patience for it.
Entity
Hall of Famer
and there you have it. so hasn't been getting to many min this preseason lol
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I guess I'm old school. I'm a believer in no more than a 9 man rotation. 10 max! The only team that leaps to mind that won a championship using a 12 man rotation is the 1974/75 Warriors with Rick Barry. I think they might have thrown the ball boy out there as well. Our new full time big man coach, Clifford Ray was on that team. Having Rick Barry on the team didn't hurt either.
But thats the only team I can think of. I just think that if you want a team to be consistent, then you have to let the same players play together all the time, and each player needs to know his role. You can't become consistent when your changing the starting lineup every other night. And, I'm not saying Smart is going to do that. I'm just praying that he doesn't. Otherwise, he's just Westphal part two.
But thats the only team I can think of. I just think that if you want a team to be consistent, then you have to let the same players play together all the time, and each player needs to know his role. You can't become consistent when your changing the starting lineup every other night. And, I'm not saying Smart is going to do that. I'm just praying that he doesn't. Otherwise, he's just Westphal part two.
I want to know how were winning these games? I know they're preseason but were beating teams while playing our starters 2/3 as much as theirs. We don't look good on the offensive end. Still can't pass, no ball movement. Lots of running around guarded and jacking up ill advised shots. So what is the reason for us winning these games? Defense? Thornton and Brooks' shooting? Johnson and Robinson hustle? I can't quite put my finger on what it is. Maybe our team of scrubs is just hustling more while the other teams don't care because it's preseason. Either way it looked like the Lakers were trying last night and we still held them off with Jimmer, Garcia and a no name guy on the court vs their starters.
That is a good question. One part of it is that our team is deeper this season. The addition of JJ, Brooks, and TRob have been huge. JJ in particular gives us something we have been sorely lacking ever since Artest left which is a defensive presence on the perimeter. Also we played 2 rebuilding teams and a Lakers team that is still discombobulated. Really our success so far has been on the defensive side of the ball and in shooting free throws. We are in the top 10 in both steals and blocked shots. We are also tied for 2nd in free throw shooting. I think we are may finally be getting out of the basement but we have a long way to go.
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