How to Get Amare Stoudemire?

[ParniValjak]

is it worth it to trade our #1 and JT for Amare, I dont think thats a very good trade.

If we make it a top 5 protected this year, it could be worth it! Its a gamble no doubt.

However, I look at it this way, is there anyone in this draft class that will be as good as, if not better than Amare?!

I am not convinced there is anyone to be honest.

But if we can hold on to our pick and Martin, then we are on a very good path to get back to being very good again.

Imagine if we could pull this one off

Salmons and KT to Portland for LaFrentz and 1st round pick (if we could also get Sergio out of this deal it would be good)

Udrih and Douby to Dallas for Stackhouse

Bobby Jackson, Mikki Moore, Spencer Hawes, Houston's 1st and Portland's first for Amare.

With our first pick draft Thabeet and in the summer, or even now if possible, trade Miller for a solid/good PG.

So what you have after all that is

C: Thabeet /
PF: Amare / Thompson
SF: Garcia / Greene
SG: Martin /
PG: PG / Rodriguez

You hope that Thabeet develops into a defensive, rebounding and shotblocking presence to offset Amare's weaknesses.

Lets say we trade Miller for Hinrich

C: Thabeet / JT
PF: Amare / JT
SF: Garcia / Greene
SG: Martin
PG: Hinrich / Rodriguez

Not a bad start for a rebuild.

 

[kupman]

WOW. I can't believe how little people are willing to give-up for Amare. I am in the camp that we should be willing to part with a bunch to get him. I would trade Kmart in a heartbeat and would even include JT with Kmart.

Amare is a 20/10 guy with a ROY and 4 all-stars under his belt already. None of our guys can even get a sniff of that. Amare may even do better once he fits better with his team. Also, Blake Griffin has nothing to to with this. He is not even 20 years old yet and it will be several years before he is anywhere near Amare talent - and that is being generous.

We are terrible. Amare could be a really big step in the right direction. Then you throw in cap space with our expiring contracts in summer 2010 and it could be "a bright - bright sunny day in Sactown."

 

[Gary]

Yah I am with Kupman..

Amare is a centerpiece. If we had to give up JT, and Martin for him we will still have Hawes, this years 2 draft picks, and salary cap relief coming in 2010 when we could make a move, and have a player here that could attract some decent FAs.

Otherwise we are just another horrible team trying to build through the draft.

 

[Warhawk]

Yah I am with Kupman..

Amare is a centerpiece. If we had to give up JT, and Martin for him we will still have Hawes, this years 2 draft picks, and salary cap relief coming in 2010 when we could make a move, and have a player here that could attract some decent FAs.

Otherwise we are just another horrible team trying to build through the draft.

Except Amare isn't worth that to me. Amare is very good, but you can't make him your #1. If you do, you are not winning it all.

Someone mentioned JT being a near 20/10 in a few years and Amare being 25/9 right now. Really, I don't see the big advantage of trading a rookie with that potential for Amare for a 1.5 year rental. Amare is not in the same league as LeBron or Kobe or Wade or Dwight. I don't want to have to pay him the max when defensively he's like a bigger K-Mart. I don't want to trade Kevin and JT for him. Those are exactly the kind of pieces you need as #2 and #3 players on a good team. He's already had one microfracture surgery, and Grant on Friday was talking about how he's heard rumblings that the other knee may be giving him problems, IIRC. Really, it is just giving up too much for a team still 2+ years from being good. And by that time Amare is long gone....

 

[Vlade4GM]

Amare is not a centerpiece. You can't run an offense through him and he's not that great at either rebounding or post d. He's a good scorer. I think brick put it best when he said he's the Kevin Martin of PF's.

 

[Alias]

Amare is not a centerpiece. You can't run an offense through him and he's not that great at either rebounding or post d. He's a good scorer. I think brick put it best when he said he's the Kevin Martin of PF's.

Basically. I think the only reason the Kings are considering this is because he is a "star" and we are in the midst of a recession. I no longer reside in Sacramento, but I imagine season ticket sales could take a significant hit next season with the government of CA being in so much debt, and all the government jobs located there. Neither Blake Griffin, nor Thabeet, nor even Rubio would keep season ticket holders in the fold. Amare might. At the least people would probably try to go in with others, rather than just give up the tickets. Also, it will be hard to move the franchise until the economic situation gets better, so there is no easy way to make up the lost revenue.

 

[nbrans]

But he's still really good. I think I'd draw the line at filler/JT/Houston's 1st, but I wouldn't include our pick or Kevin Martin. Pair Amare with Kevin Martin and yeah, you have defensive problems, but that's one of the better young tandems in the league.

 

[ParniValjak]

But he's still really good. I think I'd draw the line at filler/JT/Houston's 1st, but I wouldn't include our pick or Kevin Martin. Pair Amare with Kevin Martin and yeah, you have defensive problems, but that's one of the better young tandems in the league.

And thats precisely my point!

He is still better than anyone we will get in this draft. He is a proven all-star and despite all of his flaws, he is still one of the best PFs in the league. No ifs or buts about it!

Players like Amare don't become available too often. When they do, a small market team like us just has to give it a shot at getting him. Seriously, I think we are all a bit deluded if we think that our cap space will mean much in 2010. History says that MAX type players (like Amare) don't change teams. There are millions of reasons why they stick with their team. No player will walk away from $31 million. None. LeBron will stay with the Cavs, Wade with the Heat, Kobe with LAL etc... Players of Amare's calibre do not move in FA.

Its the FA that are a class below move for bigger contracts. Which ever team gets Amare, I will guarantee that they will sign him to an extension. That much is a given. He won't walk away from $31 million guaranteed over the course of his contract. He will not be 1.5 year rental.

And I agree that with Amare and Martin, you have some defensive issues, no doubt. However, you also have one of the best young tandems in the league. If you fill out the other holes in your line up, to cover for these 2 and you have a genuine contender.

A Chandler type at C to pair with Amare. A role playing defensive SF and a creative PG thats a solid defender and you have a good core.

You are better off moving forward with Amare and Martin than just Martin. If we can still clear enough salary cap room for 2010, we can still attract FA better with Martin and Amare as your core than just Martin.

Am I correct in saying that if we have salary cap room in 2010 and Amare is on our roster, can we sign other big FAs with the cap space and be allowed to go over the cap to then extend Amare?! Or will we have to extend Amare and play with what ever is left for the FA?

 

[ParniValjak]

Except Amare isn't worth that to me. Amare is very good, but you can't make him your #1. If you do, you are not winning it all.

Someone mentioned JT being a near 20/10 in a few years and Amare being 25/9 right now. Really, I don't see the big advantage of trading a rookie with that potential for Amare for a 1.5 year rental. Amare is not in the same league as LeBron or Kobe or Wade or Dwight. I don't want to have to pay him the max when defensively he's like a bigger K-Mart. I don't want to trade Kevin and JT for him. Those are exactly the kind of pieces you need as #2 and #3 players on a good team. He's already had one microfracture surgery, and Grant on Friday was talking about how he's heard rumblings that the other knee may be giving him problems, IIRC. Really, it is just giving up too much for a team still 2+ years from being good. And by that time Amare is long gone....

Actually there is a massive difference! Would you rather have Amare or Zach Randolph?

And why do people harp on this 1.5 year rental?! In this current structure of CBA, who was the last MAX player that has left his team in FA?! The CBA I am talking about is the one that gives the "home" team a massive advantage to retain their max player. Bigger yearly salary increases, an extra year on the max extension, all totaling to some $31 million! Show me a player that will walk away from that and I will buy into this argument that he is a 1.5 year rental.

Which ever team gets Amare, they will have him for as long as they want him!

 

[Vlade4GM]

You also have to consider whether Amare would even stay here.

 

[Warhawk]

You also have to consider whether Amare would even stay here.

Exactly. And also, do you really want to pay Amare the max? The others I mentioned, you bet. Amare? Even with Nash as a PG and the perfect offense installed for Amare's game, they still couldn't make it to the top. Amare isn't taking us to the promised land, folks. Do you want to pay max for that when there is some concern about his knees?

 

[nbrans]

We took the same risk with CWebb. He stayed. Money talks 99% of the time.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Giving up Richmonds isn't exactly a big risk though compared to what we could be giving up now. Obviously I'm open to the risk if the price isn't that bad, but since Amare is going to have a ton of options in 2010 and lot of teams liking him it's a bigger risk than with Webber.

 

[Warhawk]

Actually there is a massive difference! Would you rather have Amare or Zach Randolph?

I don't want Zach, but you would also have to consider the salary differential between them (Amare and JT) as well.

The biggest plus for getting Amare would to possibly trade him for someone who could become a #1 before he becomes a free agent, because he isn't sticking around long term. Look at his recent quotes about having input into a trade:

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2009/02/13/20090213spt-suns.html

Former National Basketball Players Association Executive Director Charlie Grantham, Stoudemire's new agent this season, equates this portion of trade exploration as fantasy basketball, with the majority of the teams exploring the possibilities. When it gets to reality, Grantham said, he will want Stoudemire to have a say, because he will not want to go just anywhere.

Grantham reiterated that Stoudemire prefers to stay in Phoenix and sign an extension, a topic he won't broach with Suns leaders until the off-season.

"I feel he's a (maximum-salary) player," Grantham said. Stoudemire can't veto a trade, but he could discourage a team with a lack of desire for a long-term commitment.
If the Suns get serious about a trade involving Stoudemire before Thursday's deadline, Grantham expects to be consulted.

"A place that may be a real good deal for them may not be the best place for us," said Grantham, who is in Phoenix. "In that case, we would not be interested in signing an extension. I would think most teams would not want to rent him for a year and a half. They would want him to sign for more years and know that he's interested in staying."

Grantham said he would not discourage a deal with a team based on market size but added that the potential for a team's success would be a factor.

And, we would probably have to strip this team of some young parts to even get him. You give up too much, what's the point?

 

[ParniValjak]

Exactly. And also, do you really want to pay Amare the max? The others I mentioned, you bet. Amare? Even with Nash as a PG and the perfect offense installed for Amare's game, they still couldn't make it to the top. Amare isn't taking us to the promised land, folks. Do you want to pay max for that when there is some concern about his knees?

Look around dude, how many players have max contracts?! If we end up drafting someone in the same ball park as Amare, we WILL drop the max on them. Its how the league works. If you don't, you will forever be the Clippers.

IMHO, there are only 5 TRUE max players in the league right now. LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Howard and Paul. Everyone else, is a class below (I am not including the old timers like Duncan and KG in this equasion)

Now how many max deals are out there?! Amare, Dirk, Bosh, Williams, Marion, Yao, TMac, Iverson, Melo, Arenas, Brand, Redd, Carter etc.... None of these guys alone will lead their team to a championship, although Dirk went close and was denied by Wade.

The point is, we are not getting the top 5 player, unless we REALLY get lucky in the draft like the Spurs did with Duncan. You need to get a great pick in a great draft to be able to get that player.

We are a small market team, we will never attact those types of players. We will always have to improvise to compete with the big boys. Small teams like us will have to pay the max to players like Amare. And believe me we wouldn't be the only ones in the league. If you are a small market team, and if you don't spend you money, you end up a laughing stock that is always in the lottery.

Sitting around, waiting for the perfect player is just as big a gamble. What if that player never comes. What if you end up with Okafor instead of Howard, Sam Bowie instead of Jordan?!

If Maloofs and Petrie want Amare, they will sell Sacramento to him. They know how to impress and sell the place. In fact, if they are serious about getting him, I wouldn't be surprised if they get C-Webb to talk to Amare about Sacramento. From reluctant King to having his jersey retired!

 

[Warhawk]

We took the same risk with CWebb. He stayed. Money talks 99% of the time.

Webber was a better player than Amare.

 

[kupman]

And, we would probably have to strip this team of some young parts to even get him. You give up too much, what's the point?

We are not giving up too much. The point is that you build around a front court of Amare and Hawes. You build the rest with a high draft pick and cap space in 18 months. That could easily total 4 high caliber players. We can decide what to do with our other pieces such as Salmons, Greene and 'Cisco later.

 

[ParniValjak]

Webber was a better player than Amare.

No doubt but he was just as big a risk at the time. Thrown to the side by 2 other franchises. Not wanting to come here. Issues with him everywhere. He came here and he took his game to another level, matured as a person, focused as a professional and he was the best thing that ever happened to this franchise.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Trading a 33 year old Richmond off of a crappy team for a young Webber is not the same risk AT ALL than trading prime rebuilding chips for a guy who is more of a 2nd fiddle star than a guy you can truly build around, and will have a lot of options in two years unlike Webber did. Amare doesn't create for others, he relies too much on athleticism (big problem once that starts to decline, he has nothing to fall back on), and he doesn't provide good post D or that great of rebounding.

 

[nbrans]

Webber was a better player than Amare.

(Channeling Pitino): CWebb is not walking in that door, fans. And if he walked through that door he'd be old and gray.

I still don't think Thompson and a late 1st is very much to be giving up to get Amare. Amare has plenty of question marks, but he's as good as we could reasonably hope Thompson would ever be in the absolute best case scenario. I'm with you on not selling the farm to get Amare, but Thompson and a 1st, i.e. the equivalent of Donte Greene? Man, seems like a no-brainer to me, even with the risk of Amare walking.

 

[kupman]

Webber was a better player than Amare.

This is based upon knowing what CWebb did with his career between the age of 26 and the knee injury. We have no idea what the next 6-7 years holds for Amare. It is conjecture.

If it were 1997 and CWebb was in his final days with the Bullets and we were able to compare that with what we know about Amare right now, I would say that it would be a toss-up. Their resumes are nearly identical for the same points in time.

 

[Warhawk]

(Channeling Pitino): CWebb is not walking in that door, fans. And if he walked through that door he'd be old and gray.

I still don't think Thompson and a late 1st is very much to be giving up to get Amare. Amare has plenty of question marks, but he's as good as we could reasonably hope Thompson would ever be in the absolute best case scenario. I'm with you on not selling the farm to get Amare, but Thompson and a 1st, i.e. the equivalent of Donte Greene? Man, seems like a no-brainer to me, even with the risk of Amare walking.

I was referring more to the posts about trading both JT and Martin and more to get him (see Gary and Kupman). Trading JT and expirings/Brad/KT and a late first - I'd probably go with that and not be too conflicted, but I'd hate to do that and have him bail for LA in 1.5 years. I would be really sure about his knees first (bad knees and a big man are not a good combination), and would also either make sure he'd like to stay or not get too attached and dish him off as a very talented expiring to go after a #1 type player.

Amare is what he is, folks. He's a super-sized Kevin. and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you realize that going in. I personally don't think that is worth max $$$, but to each their own. He isn't going to magically start playing defense or start making his teammates that much better (on a regular basis) at this point......

 

[nbrans]

^Ah, well we agree completely then.

 

[Entity]

I wonder what numbers Amare puts up without Steve Nash? Nash came in before Amare's 3rd season and that was the season Amare really started showing what he could do. I wonder as good as JT is now how good would he be in his 3rd season with Nash and Marion at his side.

My point being At this point in time I don't think you trade JT for Amare. Especially when the addition of Amare isn't going to get you to the playoffs and is going to fill up salary total to the point where you won't be able to get much help for him.

Now pair Amare at Center with JT at his side as well as Martin and for the sake of everything that is real get a damn point guard.

 

[ParniValjak]

I was referring more to the posts about trading both JT and Martin and more to get him (see Gary and Kupman). Trading JT and expirings/Brad/KT and a late first - I'd probably go with that and not be too conflicted, but I'd hate to do that and have him bail for LA in 1.5 years. I would be really sure about his knees first (bad knees and a big man are not a good combination), and would also either make sure he'd like to stay or not get too attached and dish him off as a very talented expiring to go after a #1 type player.

Amare is what he is, folks. He's a super-sized Kevin. and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you realize that going in. I personally don't think that is worth max $$$, but to each their own. He isn't going to magically start playing defense or start making his teammates that much better (on a regular basis) at this point......

We are in agreement!

I still think he will stay with the team that gets him because there is more finacial incentive to do that than go somewhere else.

I also wouldn't trade Martin. Not beceuase he is untouchable, its because he woudl defeat the purpose. I am open to trading Martin in teh right deal. I think Amare can he had without Martin.

Despite all of his flaws, he is a major assett. Lets be honest here, in 2010 if we walked away with Amare from FA we would be stoked! This is just a scenario where we could get him before 2010. Petrie always said that 2010 was the target but that can change if the landscape changes. Landscape is changing because the player we would have gone after in 2010 has just been put on the market.

Filler/JT or Hawes/ and 1 or 2 mid-late 1st round picks is NOT too much to pay for Amare.

 

[Warhawk]

I wonder what numbers Amare puts up without Steve Nash? Nash came in before Amare's 3rd season and that was the season Amare really started showing what he could do. I wonder as good as JT is now how good would he be in his 3rd season with Nash and Marion at his side.

My point being At this point in time I don't think you trade JT for Amare. Especially when the addition of Amare isn't going to get you to the playoffs and is going to fill up salary total to the point where you won't be able to get much help for him.

Yeah, this was my other thought. Not sure you really want to pay that much for dubious return....

 

[Vlade4GM]

This is based upon knowing what CWebb did with his career between the age of 26 and the knee injury. We have no idea what the next 6-7 years holds for Amare. It is conjecture.

If it were 1997 and CWebb was in his final days with the Bullets and we were able to compare that with what we know about Amare right now, I would say that it would be a toss-up. Their resumes are nearly identical for the same points in time.

Webber could create offense for himself and others, he was a much better rebounder, and played more consistent D than Amare. Amare is a jumper or dunk guy, Webb did so much more and he didn't just do those things post-Washington. Amare is going to be 27 at the beginning of next year, his game is not dramatically changing, no way.

 

[KevinSalvadori]

The question, really, is this- would you want THIS team?


Jared Jeffries, sf
Malik Rose, pf
Jerome James, c
Amare Stoudemire
Spencer Hawes, c/PF
Mikki Moore, C
Beno Udrih, PG
Kevin Martin, SG
Michael Finley, PG
Bobby Brown, PG
Bobby Jackson, SG
Dontae Green, SF
Francisco Garcia, SF

C- Hawes
PF- Stoudemire
SF- Finley
PG- Udrih
SG- Martin

6th- Garcia, G/F
7th- Jeffries, SF
8th- Jackson, G
9th- Rose, PF
10th- Green, SF
11th- Brown, PG
12th- Moore, C/PF
IR- James, C


I can explain my deals later, but taking all the traffic on the various sites into account, this team could be feasible. The bold players are in a final contract year, thus expiring money.



I, certainly, would like this team. But I understand the hesitation of others.

 

[Bricklayer]

That...is just atrocious.

As an aside, the papers this morning were saying that Amare talks got left off at Jason, both Shledon and Bobby's enders, and our #1 (ours, not the Houston pick). to which we thankfully said no.

I understand Phoenix's frustration here -- we are busily radically underselling Amare Stoudemire, who's young and been a first team all NBAer. But from our perspective, we've got a rebuild to attend to, and tearing out the heart of it to land Amare isn't going to get us home. If it costs JT, it costs JT -- as has been mentioned in the absolute best case pie in the sky dream scenario JT one day is as good as Amare. And that's just fantasyville in all liklihood. But not JT and Martin. Or JT and Hawes. Or JT and the high #1. Or any of those sorts of things. As is, an Amare trade would be more expensive than just what we gave up to get him, since it woul also end up costing us draft position this summer and knock us bakc into the middle of the lottery.

 

[KevinSalvadori]

That...is just atrocious.

As an aside, the papers this morning were saying that Amare talks got left off at Jason, both Shledon and Bobby's enders, and our #1 (ours, not the Houston pick). to which we thankfully said no.

I understand Phoenix's frustration here -- we are busily radically underselling Amare Stoudemire, who's young and been a first team all NBAer. But from our perspective, we've got a rebuild to attend to, and tearing out the heart of it to land Amare isn't going to get us home. If it costs JT, it costs JT -- as has been mentioned in the absolute best case pie in the sky dream scenario JT one day is as good as Amare. And that's just fantasyville in all liklihood. But not JT and Martin. Or JT and Hawes. Or JT and the high #1. Or any of those sorts of things. As is, an Amare trade would be more expensive than just what we gave up to get him, since it woul also end up costing us draft position this summer and knock us bakc into the middle of the lottery.

You make great, great points. But I will give you one X-Factor: remember who owns this team. They likely see it as the Webber trade redux, and that may entice them.

If we can ditch some combo of Williams, KT, JT, and (begrudgingly) our 2009 first, it may get done. That would provide PHX with a sensational amount of expiring salary after next season, with Nash, Shaq, and Thomas all off the books.

Could get interesting...