[Game] Hawks @ Kings 03/11/2012

[Padrino]

Which one? He can't really play either.

says who? a player capable of putting up 17, 5, and 5 as a guard on any given night should be starting as a guard. he'll likely be playing second fiddle to cousins if both remain with the kings, so there's no reason he shouldn't be playing at one of two positions that maximize his talent. the kings have a clear mismatch of size and strength when evans plays as a guard, and his defense is well above average when that mismatch favors the kings. with a more properly balanced roster, outside shooting can come from elsewhere...

 

[Bricklayer]

Which one? He can't really play either.

You know, coming from a Jimmer background I would not expect you to immediately grasp this, but there is, in fact, more to being a guard that just shooting. Best shooter I ever knew was a 5'8" scrawny guy who used to haunt the parks where I grew up. Some middle school teacher or something. Middling athlete at best. But he would shoot and shoot and shoot for hours every day and he simply would not miss anything out to about 20 feet. Oddly he never made the NBA.

 

[Npliam]

He's a guard.

You can put him at "PG", but only if there is a second passer at either SG or SF.

You can put him at "SG" but only with a PG who's able to function without the ball, because you need it to be in Reke's and Cousin's hands. This is a well known formula to anyone who's ever watched Wade/Roy/Kobe etc. function.

Now, because of the existence of Thornton, there is a problem. Thornton is a pure SG, too small to play SF, way too selfish etc. to play PG. So unless you send him to the bench, the only available guard spot for Reek is PG. And Thonrton is certainly not that second passer in the Reke as PG scenario. So then you are stuck looking for a SF who can pass and help. Whihc is actually what we tried to do with Salmons despite how dumb that looks now, and with AK47, who is very underrated passer as a SF. Other options are tough to find/acquire. Igoudala could do it, but he can't shoot either and so is a poor fit that way. LeBron is, last time I checked, unavailable and moderately ball dominant. This is our difficulty. But difficulty or not it does not make it the players' fault when HE is the guy moved out of positon to try to accomodate the roster. If Thornton was moved to SF and struggled, it would not be his fault either. Nor if Boogie is moved to the point.

The real problem to me is that he doesn't have a position that he can play that leads to winning basketball. Kobe, Wade, Roy are all much better shooters than Reke and much more willing to make the right pass.

 

[Padrino]

The real problem to me is that he doesn't have a position that he can play that leads to winning basketball. Kobe, Wade, Roy are all much better shooters than Reke and much more willing to make the right pass.

dwayne wade sends his regards...

 

[Bricklayer]

The real problem to me is that he doesn't have a position that he can play that leads to winning basketball. Kobe, Wade, Roy are all much better shooters than Reke and much more willing to make the right pass.

You obviously never watched those guys as young players.

 

[Npliam]

You know, coming from a Jimmer background I would not expect you to immediately grasp this, but there is, in fact, more to being a guard that just shooting. Best shooter I ever knew was a 5'8" scrawny guy who used to haunt the parks where I grew up. Some middle school teacher or something. Middling athlete at best. But he would shoot and shoot and shoot for hours every day and he simply would not miss anything out to about 20 feet. Oddly he never made the NBA.

Thanks for that. I have been an NBA for years. I grew up on John and Karl and have watched a lot of basketball.

 

[Npliam]

says who? a player capable of putting up 17, 5, and 5 as a guard on any given night should be starting as a guard. he'll likely be playing second fiddle to cousins if both remain with the kings, so there's no reason he shouldn't be playing at one of two positions that maximize his talent. the kings have a clear mismatch of size and strength when evans plays as a guard, and his defense is well above average when that mismatch favors the kings. with a more properly balanced roster, outside shooting can come from elsewhere...

The numbers are great. It just doesn't lead to wins.

 

[Npliam]

You obviously never watched those guys as young players.

Ha Ha Ha. Yes, I did.

 

[Padrino]

The numbers are great. It just doesn't lead to wins.

and what does lead to wins that any one player can fix? you are aware that a rebuild takes time, correct? what is it with kings fans that think their team is any different? i swear you're the most frustrating bunch in the nba (yes, sometimes i feel the need to distance myself from the fanbase that i am a part of in order to maintain sanity). wins come with proper coaching, balance, maturity, chemistry, and time. they don't come overnight, no matter how well a player fits into some predetermined--and often misguided--notion of what his "natural" position is...

 

[Npliam]

and what does lead to wins that any one player can fix? you are aware that a rebuild takes time, correct? what is it with kings fans that think their team is any different? i swear you're the most frustrating bunch in the nba (yes, sometimes i feel the need to distance myself from the fanbase that i am a part of in order to maintain sanity). wins come with proper coaching, balance, maturity, chemistry, and time. they don't come overnight, no matter how well a player fits into some predetermined--and often misguided--notion of what his "natural" position is...

I am not a Kings fan.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ha Ha Ha. Yes, I did.

If you watched those players as young players and are going to tell me with a straight face that Kobe Bryant was more willing than Reke to pass the ball as a kid...well you're just a good liar.

 

[Padrino]

I am not a Kings fan.

well then you've got very little in the way of validation with respect to your treatises on the kings as a team and whether or not they can play winning basketball, because you're clearly here with an individual player-bias...

 

[Npliam]

If you watched those players as young players and are going to tell me with a straight face that Kobe Bryant was more willing than Reke to pass the ball as a kid...well you're just a good liar.

Kobe wasn't running the team then.

 

[Npliam]

well then you've got very little in the way of validation with respect to your treatises on the kings as a team and whether or not they can play winning basketball, because you're clearly here with an individual player-bias...

Probably. I have fully acknowledged being a Jimmer fan. I still don't think that makes my observations wrong. I have no emotional investment in Tyreke like a King's fan would. I just call it like I see it.

 

[swisshh]

LOL

Indeed. Coudln't possibly be he is being played out of positon. Much like Durant not being able to play SG or Ben Wallace being tried out as a guard when he was young. Nope, not that the coaches were idiots and played them at positions not suited to their skillsets/physical attributes, it was on the players for not beign able to play all of 1-5 with equal facility.

Just because he's officially starting at SF, it doesn't mean he is being posted up on the block or just hanging in the corner waiting for a three. He's getting the ball at the wing often, like he would be as a SG. His outside shot attempts are normally from up high. The only thing that has drastically changed is a lack of his dribbling at the top of the key for ten seconds. He's not getting the ball at that point as often and he really shouldn't be. It was awful offense.

Hell, even when he's officially at the PF spot in smallball mode, he's still playing from the outside-in.

 

[BMiller52]

That's seriously how you look at it. He's also our only player aside from Cuz who can get his shot one on one, is our best perimeter defender, our best backcourt rebounder, and the only one creating a damn thing tonight.

But yes, sitting him for the final 7 mins makes sense.

Would like to see him out there with Jimmer at times. I think their skillsets would compliment eachother pretty well.

 

[Padrino]

Probably. I have fully acknowledged being a Jimmer fan. I still don't think that makes my observations wrong. I have no emotional investment in Tyreke like a King's fan would. I just call it like I see it.

you have an emotional investment in jimmer, which is liable to skew your view of any king other than jimmer. you're here with an admitted agenda, so your opinion holds less value to me than someone who spends time considering what they think is best for the sacramento kings. i find it relatively easy to abide fellow fans who disagree with me if their passion is likewise fueled by a mutual love of this team. i am less likely to give a damn if someone follows their favorite player over to the kings, but shows little interest in the team itself. winning basketball does not come immediately for most young teams, so its absolutely foolhardy to claim that tyreke evans' does not play winning basketball when its a team that loses, just as its a team that wins...

evans' assist totals speak for themselves. his shots/gm speak for themselves, as well. at 35 mins/gm, he's hardly a chucker when compared to other players in his mold, and he moves the ball more than most of his contemporaries, too. these claims that detractors want to keep making simply hold no water. not in reality, and not in any parallel universe. the truth is that the kings are a very poor defensive team, as most young teams are. their scoring totals as a team have improved. their shooting percentages as a team have improved. their assist totals as a team have improved. but their defense has not shown consistent improvement. hence the loss tonight. it should be as plain as day to anybody with just one eye that can at least sorta see straight. tyreke evans is one of the kings best defenders. he might be the team's best individual man defender. he's not the problem...

 

[swisshh]

Would like to see him out there with Jimmer at times. I think their skillsets would compliment eachother pretty well.

Reke doesn't really look for Jimmer. For some reason, Reke will kick it to an open Donte Greene before he'll find a wide open Jimmer.

 

[Bricklayer]

Reke doesn't really look for Jimmer. For some reason, Reke will kick it to an open Donte Greene before he'll find a wide open Jimmer.

Familiarity.

And I don't think that's accurate anyway. Reke was the first guy to start finding Jimmer for angle threes on the team. And Jimmer has missed a number of corner threes from him -- a comfort pass for Reke, but not a comfort shot for Jimmer, who would never have been in the corner in college.

 

[Npliam]

Familiarity.

And I don't think that's accurate anyway. Reke was the first guy to start finding Jimmer for angle threes on the team. And Jimmer has missed a number of corner threes from him -- a comfort pass for Reke, but not a comfort shot for Jimmer, who would never have been in the corner in college.

I don't think Reke avoids Jimmer. Now MT (who avoids everybody) and Salmons...

 

[BMiller52]

I don't think Reke avoids Jimmer. Now MT (who avoids everybody) and Salmons...

Salmons doesn't avoid Jimmer. I don't think anyone really avoids him anymore, I just think he doesn't get to play with the starters as much as he could sometimes. He is our most unselfish player IMO, he doesn't have great handles yet but a guy like Tyreke can handle the ball so that takes some of the pressure off Jimmer. He has been playing better than IT lately. I'm not sure what happens long term with Tyreke though. I think this team might just need more time to gel and get better though, they already have improved quite a bit under Smart, who is a good teacher but has some wacky line ups.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't think Reke avoids Jimmer. Now MT (who avoids everybody) and Salmons...

There was definitely somethign there with Salmons early. Bu since he's moved to the bench he's actually become the main Jimmer facilitator.

MT...well come on now. Jimmer is a threat to his ball.

 

[swisshh]

I would argue that Hayes is the team's most unselfish player.

I don't think most of the team gets Jimmer's game yet. On the break, if he's trailing the ball handler, just drop the ball off behind you and let him step into a deep three. That's still a good shot with his range. Boston does the same with Ray Allen. The Kings did the same with Peja.

Related to selfish/unselfish:
The weird thing is that if Salmons was playing point-forward earlier in the season, he might have saved his starting job. It gets him that little dribble pull-up midrange shot and makes him play within his abilities. He's also become far less of a ball stopper. Though I don't know how much of this is helped by having Cisco and Hayes with him, both of whom will move the ball and move without the ball.

 

[Npliam]

There was definitely somethign there with Salmons early. Bu since he's moved to the bench he's actually become the main Jimmer facilitator.

MT...well come on now. Jimmer is a threat to his ball.

Ha Ha Ha. Like I said, I don't think the thing with MT is specific to Jimmer. He doesn't like others touching his ball at all.

 

[UK_King]

There's a reason bench players are bench players.

What if your favorite futbol team over there ran out all the reserves and they lost? Would you say the coach takes no blame, because it's on the players to score goals? Because that's what you basically said.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but i think the starters were culpable for a lot of the turnovers tonight.

I agree with you about Tyreke coming back in, he obviously would have helped us massively on the defensive end but at the other end he was struggling. Who's to say he doesn't explode and get us 9-10 points but then we're in the realms of Nostradamus so it's a silly debate.

I just think it's a step too far to call out the coach for defeats when players are lazily tapping the ball to their teammates and having it knocked away. It was a problem all night, call it the Hawks hussle if you want but the passing was extremely poor.

As far as the football analogy, it's a good one because here the manager takes ALL the blame, the players are above reproach, it doesn't matter if the players went out and all sat down and slept, somehow it would be the managers fault.

I think Smart has fallen in love with the "they're playing well, let them play" way too much, the bench guys have had some fantastic streaks where Jimmer will knock down a couple and we're back within 5/6 but instead of bringing in our main guys he thinks they'll be able to push over the top, which is just not the case. I get how it's about "trust" and it instills confidence but it's not conducive to winning ball games.

anyway i agree with your sentiment, it just annoys me when people forget that it's professional basketball players, earning millions of dollars who are unable to complete a simple pass, you can hardly legislate for that when you're the coach.

 

[treach1976]

If you watched those players as young players and are going to tell me with a straight face that Kobe Bryant was more willing than Reke to pass the ball as a kid...well you're just a good liar.

No -- Kobe was just better than Reke. And he played every possession. Game last night was lost in the final minutes. When they had a chance to close the gap and make a move, they gave it away with careless plays.

 

[Kingster]

I see you didn't watch the game, or just have a poor understanding of what you did watch.

Reke 7 asts
IT 0asts
MT 0asts

Did I really have to post that again?

Reke did some good things. Made a few nice passes, hustled for a long rebound (I'd like to see more of that!), played good D on his man. But he also did some things that weren't good: ball hogging, shooting outside shots, forcing layups that weren't there. The guy has to realize that just because he gets the defensive rebound doesn't mean that EVERY time he can run the floor and force up a layup no matter whether there are three guys back there to defend him or not. That kind of ball hogging at the beginning of the game sets the tone.

Zero assists for IT is very deceiving. He made some great passes that weren't finished. This team needs finishers.