NME
Starter
I agree that I don't like the approach we saw from him in either summer league or on Tuesday, but it's not unusual for big men to get lost and look bad in SL games (see Oden last year), and we've seen that Hawes can do better. If he could put up the same kind of production in his starts this year, I don't think there would be a lot of complaints.
N
Nikefutbolero
Guest
In a league full of these freakish athletes players like Hawes no longer shine. He will forever be outplayed and outmatched by most players at his position. It's not that he's a bust, he's just not athletic enough for this evolving league.
kf4l
G-League
I think Hawes will come along just fine. From what I see he has the potential to be a Okur type of player. He's guy that has post skills but doesn't utilize them as much as people want him to and outplays opponent center with his basketball IQ, passing, and perimeter shooting. But thats not a bad thing as long as we have a superstar PF next to him and I'm hoping JT can be that.
These are pretty consistent with how he played all last year. His average, per 33 minutes, was:
33 minutes / 11.8 pts / 45.9% FG / 8.2 reb / 1.6 ast / 1.4 blk (/ 19% 3pt / 65.5% FT / 2.0 TO)
How special is this? Here's a comparison with Player X.
33 minutes / 11.7 pts / 51.3% FG / 8.6 reb / 1.2 ast / 1.2 blk (/ 42% 3pt / 66.7% FT / 1.2 TO)
"Player X" is what you get if you combine the rookie year stats of Ike Diogu, Vladimir Radmanovic, Andris Biedrins and Nick Collison.
I think we need to give it another year or two before we reach any drastic conclusions.
beb0p
Starter
Hawes is right where a 20-yr-old future NBA starter should be: a little overwhelmed, forcing the issue too much, just discovering that he can't always rely on his size, and his go-to moves are like kiddie play in the NBA.
There are many things he has to work on to get to where he needs to be. And it's going to be much growing pains for him and for the fans. Those of use expecting the next Lebron or Oden will be very disappointed. But I think he's actually ahead of schedule. To those who're calling him bust, my question is: what do you expect? Do you honestly think he's going to shoot under 30% for the season or become a jump shooter? Do you honestly think he's going to outplay Greg Oden?
To answer the tread's question, Hawes will neither be great or bust. He's going to be a very solid starting calibre center who can score and make his teammates better. He may even be a one or two time all-star. All in all, barring some miracle that we trade for Yao Ming or we draft a stud center, Hawes is the Kings' future center. Period.
There are many things he has to work on to get to where he needs to be. And it's going to be much growing pains for him and for the fans. Those of use expecting the next Lebron or Oden will be very disappointed. But I think he's actually ahead of schedule. To those who're calling him bust, my question is: what do you expect? Do you honestly think he's going to shoot under 30% for the season or become a jump shooter? Do you honestly think he's going to outplay Greg Oden?
To answer the tread's question, Hawes will neither be great or bust. He's going to be a very solid starting calibre center who can score and make his teammates better. He may even be a one or two time all-star. All in all, barring some miracle that we trade for Yao Ming or we draft a stud center, Hawes is the Kings' future center. Period.
Aside from a good dunk against the Lakers last year...and GAME ONE OF THE PRESEASON...
Bust.
Jechtsphere
Starter
Calling him a bust at this point is way too early...just the sour people who didn't want him in the first place coming out of their holes.
As a rookie last year he played well, I'll agree what I've seen out of him so far this off season is disappointing...I first saw it in summer league but I mean come on now...a bust already?
Let's just see how his season unfolds >.>
As a rookie last year he played well, I'll agree what I've seen out of him so far this off season is disappointing...I first saw it in summer league but I mean come on now...a bust already?
Let's just see how his season unfolds >.>
Gary
All-Star
That's not correct.. Sure he's not really athletic, but he's one hell of a player that makes it up in other areas.. Guys like Hawes, and Kevin Love are the future of the NBA as well. Passing big men who can hit jumpers.
A lot of those "freaks" wouldn't know how to play a "team game" if it jumped up and bit them in the butt. Give the kid time. I am sure he will be fine.
Widowmaker2k
Bench
Interestingly enough, he's not that unathletic. He's no Dwight Howard obviously, but he's not Greg Ostertag either. He's athletic enough to be a force in this league if he gets his head on straight. I think a lot of people see and think "He's white, therefore he can't jump!"...which is obviously untrue. Hell, the 'great' Kings squad featured Vlade Divacs at center, who happened to be a crafty white seven footer, my hope is that Spencer can be the same.
I'll take a 12pt 8reb 2blk bust any day of the week.
For a "future great", that line will need more work. What will his role be? If it's to put up the points, then we may be in trouble. But if the scoring options go: 1. Martin 2. Thompson 3. Hawes, I think we'll be fine.
I'm under the impression (call me crazy) that Petrie is building a team. As such, all the players' roles will come into definition during the next few years. Thompson may be the rebound guy, he may be Webber 2.0. I don't know. I'm pretty sure, though, that Hawes was selected in the Divac/Miller mold. That means he isn't going to park his butt on the low block and just wait for the ball to come in, especially considering the fact that we are trying to adopt the triangle offense. It also means he's going to have to work pretty hard to get those rebounding numbers up.
With that in mind, we might need to temper the "great/bust" comparisons for a while.
For a "future great", that line will need more work. What will his role be? If it's to put up the points, then we may be in trouble. But if the scoring options go: 1. Martin 2. Thompson 3. Hawes, I think we'll be fine.
I'm under the impression (call me crazy) that Petrie is building a team. As such, all the players' roles will come into definition during the next few years. Thompson may be the rebound guy, he may be Webber 2.0. I don't know. I'm pretty sure, though, that Hawes was selected in the Divac/Miller mold. That means he isn't going to park his butt on the low block and just wait for the ball to come in, especially considering the fact that we are trying to adopt the triangle offense. It also means he's going to have to work pretty hard to get those rebounding numbers up.
With that in mind, we might need to temper the "great/bust" comparisons for a while.
Aenadin
Starter
i think the problem here is he is too smart... since he knows his strengths where in he can shoot for a center... and knowing that most centers dont feel comfortable guarding the perimeter he wanders way off his comfort zone in the post... he is actually playing to his OTHER strengths which is shooting... sadly thats not the only weapon of choice he can go to, theres also that post move repertoire ive seen last season a few pivot fakes here and there and a finesse move.
being a dominant center able to muscle your way in is way overrated id rather have a crafty center over a brute who plows through players cause he is bigger thats not basketball...
ive seen hakeem play and i like it alot.. (im not comparing him to hakeem mind you that would be like WHOA you crossed the line there)if Hawes can adapt his game to guys like that instead of trying to convert him to a beefy player i think it will work out. he just needs to stop camping for easy jumpshots cause it takes away our rebounding inside.
being a dominant center able to muscle your way in is way overrated id rather have a crafty center over a brute who plows through players cause he is bigger thats not basketball...
ive seen hakeem play and i like it alot.. (im not comparing him to hakeem mind you that would be like WHOA you crossed the line there)if Hawes can adapt his game to guys like that instead of trying to convert him to a beefy player i think it will work out. he just needs to stop camping for easy jumpshots cause it takes away our rebounding inside.
That's funny. One pre-season game and all the haters come out of the woodwork.
Listen, Spencer didn't play will i give you that but did you see what he was against? Greg Oden, as long as he stays healthy, is a f*n beast! He is the next Shaq but with the ability to hit freethrows!! 
Spencer will get it together by November. I'm not too worried.
Listen, Spencer didn't play will i give you that but did you see what he was against? Greg Oden, as long as he stays healthy, is a f*n beast! He is the next Shaq but with the ability to hit freethrows!! Spencer will get it together by November. I'm not too worried.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Being a sick person, I watched the first pre-season game three times, and tried to focus on Hawes. He tried two approaches with Oden. One was to try and lure him away from the basket. Oden didn't bite and defied him to shoot the ball. Well, he shot the ball, but his shot looked terrible. He short arrmed his shot consistantly. It was mostly short and flat.
His other approach was to go straight at Oden. Big mistake, because it played right into Oden's strength. Hawes may be able to use his quickness against a lot of bigger centers who are slow by the nature of their size. But in Oden's case, it won't work. He's a freak of nature. A huge man who is as quick as a lot of smaller centers or Power forwards.
I think Hawes, who has an abundance of moves under the basket could have done a better job there and possibly gotten Oden into foul trouble. My point is that Hawes has to play to his strengths and not the oppositions. I'm sure thats being pointed out to him.
As far as guarding Oden. Well, there's no one on the Kings team that can guard him one on one. Maybe we should have worked a deal for Hibbert, just for guys like Oden. Hibbert isn't nearly as quick as Oden but he can hold his ground against him. The Kings did start doubling on him later in the game, but unfortunately, got burn't by a three almost every time.
All in all, it was a terrible first game match up for Hawes, and I think he tried to show the world that he could hold his own. Hopefully he learned he's not superman and to just play his own game.
His other approach was to go straight at Oden. Big mistake, because it played right into Oden's strength. Hawes may be able to use his quickness against a lot of bigger centers who are slow by the nature of their size. But in Oden's case, it won't work. He's a freak of nature. A huge man who is as quick as a lot of smaller centers or Power forwards.
I think Hawes, who has an abundance of moves under the basket could have done a better job there and possibly gotten Oden into foul trouble. My point is that Hawes has to play to his strengths and not the oppositions. I'm sure thats being pointed out to him.
As far as guarding Oden. Well, there's no one on the Kings team that can guard him one on one. Maybe we should have worked a deal for Hibbert, just for guys like Oden. Hibbert isn't nearly as quick as Oden but he can hold his ground against him. The Kings did start doubling on him later in the game, but unfortunately, got burn't by a three almost every time.
All in all, it was a terrible first game match up for Hawes, and I think he tried to show the world that he could hold his own. Hopefully he learned he's not superman and to just play his own game.
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NME
Starter
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Anything is basketball that is within the rules. And nothing is overrated that works. And in any contact sport, he who can knock the other guy on his *** almost always works.
Yet if you saw Hakeem play at all you would realize that there was not a man on the planet that could chase him from the post, not even Shaq. He had a little jumper, would use it a few times a game, but NO player ever made him use it. Nobody ever made Hakeem go "oh, guess I can't post this guy, time to run outside and chuck a jump shot."
Jump shooting is easy and lazy. It is a giveup shot unless you are really tremendous at it. Its a shot every single member of this board can take. If you're a big with a post game, and Spencer has shown flashes of it, post game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump shot. More difficult (only atiny fraction of this board likely has any real ability in the post), more sophisticated, causes far more problems for the opposition -- we in fact saw that ourselves in the Portland game as Oden crunched us inside, our defense had to collapse to stop him, and then all of a sudden all of their perimeter guys were open to drain threes. But its hard work, and it takes dedication (like many things in life). If you just give up on it and quit at the first sign of resistance, then its never going to amount to much, and likely neither are you.
There are two essential unique things a big man, and only a big man, can bring that can key a good team -- dominant rebounding/shotblocking/interior defense on one end of the court, and dominant post play on the other (there are no dominant rebounding/shotblocking/interior defense guards, and have only been a handful of dominant post guards -- it has to come from your bigs, or nto at all). Spencer will never be a dominant rebounder/shotblocker/interior defender. That already sets him apart from guys like Hakeem, Robinson, or Ewing, who could have been 10ppg scorers and still been key centerpieces for their teams. So he HAS to utilize that post ability or all you have is another softie. This fascination of his with emulating Brad Miller is unnerving. Brad Miller has never won anything, nor will he as a starting center. He can't do those big man things. You can find better models in Vlade, Smits, Arvydas (who were unfortunately all bigger and stronger than Spencer). All those guys had face up jumpers, would break them out with some regularity. But they also all loved the post, and would establish that first and do their real damage there. That's where they became tough guards, and where they could create spacing for their perimeter players.
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nbrans
All-Star
This has always been my complaint with the idea of betting the future of the center position on Hawes. The only guys who have made Hawes' style of game work (and I'd add Ilgauskas and Yao to the list) were HUGE. Every guy on that list is not just 7'0", but over 7'0", and many of them were physically large as well. Brad Miller is about as effective for his size and athletic ability as you can reasonably expect -- and the only time we went anywhere with him was when he was next to Vlade and playing power forward.
I'm not going to write off Hawes because he has some serious offensive talent. I am glad he's getting a big comeuppance right now, because as I posted earlier in a different thread, he has a know-it-all syndrome that seems to be interfering with his development. That could be Hawes being a 20 year old, or it could be Hawes being Hawes. But the only way to find out is to slap him around a little and see if he wakes up.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I agree with almost everything you posted. One correction though, is that Hawes has mentioned many times that the player he most wants to emulate is Hakeem. Now this is very admirable, but also unfortunate, because its impossible. Hakeem was one of a kind.
In Hawes only year in college he was a very good post player and needs to stick with what he knows how to do. One of my pet peeves is seeing a seven footer shooting threes. Whats the point of being seven foot? I personally think that the three point shot has ruined basketball to a degree. But thats a debate for another thread at another time.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
AMEN. I have been preeching this to people for years. For the supposed dominance of the "new and improved" versatile big man, they don't win championships because at the end of the game when they get tired and the D clamps down, they settle for the 15-18 footers, which are lower percentage shots than the 2-5 footers. The true bigs who have won the most championships - Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan - all know how to impose their will in the post and don't end the game shooting a series of 16 foot jump shots.
Well, shoot. Let's just waive him then. I mean, if YOU think he's a bust, it must be true. Let Petrie know; I'm sure he'll be glad to get your "inside tip" to cut him now before everyone else catches on.
Eh?
In the Princeton, it was crucial, but if you look at the centers who've been on successful teams that played the Triangle (Chris Mihm, Bill Cartwright, etc.), few of them even managed 1 assist per game. I'm not sure how a point-center would be a big coup under the present circumstances.
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upinsmoke
All-Star
Well, shoot. Let's just waive him then. I mean, if YOU think he's a bust, it must be true. Let Petrie know; I'm sure he'll be glad to get your "inside tip" to cut him now before everyone else catches on.
Whats is your problem? the title of this thread is "hawes future great or bust" and i never said he was a bust i only gave my opinion. Spend some time away from the pc bro...
fnordius said:
There are no actual guarantees we're going to play "the triangle." We could end up playing some kind of combination offense that takes advantage of the individual skills of the players. Boxing a team into a particular style of offense, especially at this juncture, just seems really premature. Yeah, they mentioned the triangle but it doesn't mean it will be THE TRIANGLE, if you catch my drift. Our Princeton wasn't always THE PRINCETON, either. Just ask Coachie.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
I think that has more to do with the makeup of the team. In the Jordan/Pippen triangle, the big men weren't the primary scoring threats and barely registered assists. However, in the Lakers triangle, Shaq regularly averaged b/n 3-4 assists per game and Pau averaged 3.5 on LA last season.
The triangle offense is about movement and reacting to the D in a certain way. Having a versatile big man who can pass and score in versatile ways would be benefcial in the triangle like any motion offence. I think what has made the "triangle" so successful though has been having 2 of the top 5 players in the NBA in the Jordan/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe tandems.