sactowndog
All-Star
Not an answer to my question mate.
Harry Giles thread back on track ;)
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Equally, my defense of coach or vocalised scepticism of the front office Vs Dave is hardly a request for a 'kumbaya circle'. Although a more tempered approach towards Giles and his minutes that does not involve creating mostly needless speculation is something that I would enjoy. It is the internet though and people can approach things how they want.
It was an answer. You said who would I trust. I said they are both doing their jobs well. I.e. I trust both. There is not enough evidence that suggests I need to take sides at this stage.
It looks to me like his leaping ability has been compromised quite a bit. I won't compare him to Willie because Willie is a bit more of a genetic freak but I'll compare him to Bagley. He's about half an inch shorter than Bagley with a 3" longer wingspan. Look at how big of a lob target Bagley is? You can damn near throw the ball as high as the backboard and he'll go up and get it. With Harry, you have to put the ball up there on a tee for him or else he can't get enough air and separation to throw it down. He's not Koufos but he certainly isn't Willie, Bagley or even Skal in that regard.
I'm not saying this is a perfect comparison but he kind of reminds me of a later career Chris Webber. He doesn't have the athleticism he used to but he has a bunch of secondary skills that will keep him playing good basketball. He just doesn't have the athleticism to elevate his game from really solid player to Chris Webber prime levels. He doesn't have a flat tire or anything but he's not the athletic freak of nature he was in high school.
Livinthedream
All-Star
SLAB
Hall of Famer
Good first half, less effective but inoffensive second half.
He and WCS didn’t mesh at all. He’ll be so much better when Bagley’s with him.
NME
Starter
How so? The discussion for the past two days has been whether Giles would get meaningful minutes this game.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
He played tonight. I think he's going to play most nights, but Bagley coming back could glom up the works.
SLAB
Hall of Famer
I want him and Bagley together so badly.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
My guess is that will happen if and when WCS is gone.
SLAB
Hall of Famer
Depending on the return, the sooner the better.
This season isn’t about the playoffs, and we were fooling ourselves thinking otherwise. It’s about improvement (we have that) and development.
Bagley/Giles is the future, and I’m ready for it now.
jcassio
Starter
You may have a good point as I didn't observe any comparative leaping ability. Maybe he doesn't have the leaping ability that he had in high school. Or maybe that's a flawed comparison because he was a different player then. I'm guessing he is (these days) bigger, stronger and smarter. But you're not giving him any credit for those attributes; you're only pointing out that you think he lacks the leaping ability he had in high school. Okay, point taken. But that doesn't negate that he is currently an awesome athlete.
kingsfan101
Starter
As the old saying goes about "Be careful what you wish for ..."
WCS is an RFA at the end of the year. His style of play likely has more value for us than for many other teams. I doubt we get a lot for him at this stage.
And unless we see Bagley/Giles perform consistently for extended minutes, it might not even be the case of addition by subtraction, not in the short term at least. The team has started winning for the first time in forever. That trend needs to continue. It's important for the development of the whole team and organization, make us a more interesting player in the FA market, and more appealing to players looking for a trade, potential future coaching hires, etc.
Contrary to many, I'm actually hoping that we re-sign Willie, or at least do a S&T. I'm not against trading him, but don't think we'll get much at this stage (Porter should be achievable, particularly since Wiz gain a lot by shedding his salary, but Willie might be too much of a price to pay when Wiz are already strained).
As I have said in the past, we will need to pay someone next season to reach the floor. Willie will be one of the better players we can get when more than half the league, many with better markets/pedigree will be able to make offers. We will end up overpaying someone, and Willie might be one of the better options available to us. More than the size of his contract, I hope we can negotiate on the length, and hopefully front load it.
I have moved the thread away from Giles discussion to Willie enough already, so will stop now.
I wonder how much is him trying to gauge how to actually just play basketball being healthy again. Things he could get away as an athletic monster as a junior in high school obviously don't work here in the NBA anymore. Unfamiliarity with playing high level basketball healthy more than anything might be making him slow rather than him being completely sapped of his athletic gifts. I'm sure he's still not totally going full boar either, with probably some apprehension about getting hurt again.
Maybe it's just my eyes lying to me, but I always get the sense that he's holding back physically when he's on the floor. I feel like he has another level athletically that he's just not comfortable showing yet at game speed. We've seen flashes of that amazing athleticism on a number of highlight plays that make you say "holy crap, where did that come from?" but not on a consistent basis. I think we'll have a better understanding by the start of next season when he has another 5 months of the season, more time to train in the off-season, Summer League, preseason how his body responds.
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
So we should be afraid that WCS is not on the team anymore, but we should also believe that we can't get much for him? There seems to be a disconnect there. Also, there's an implicit assumption that if WCS is used as an asset in a trade that the Kings won't get back a big in the deal, or in another deal, and the Kings would only be left with Bagley and Giles and Kosta (if Kosta isn't also gone). I doubt that will occur. To keep WCS for reasons of continuity on a team hovering around .500 seems to me to be "nervous nellie" thinking. One could use the same principle when looking at JJ. Are we also going to keep him for stability and continuity? The Kings have gotten themselves out of a deep hole. Now is not the time to be worried about falling back into the abyss. It's a time to begin reaching for the stars.
reptilexcq2
Bench
Here's what I think about the Kings' problem:
I've been a Kings fan since the Webber's era but have turn away from watching them because they been losing every year and it's hard to watch. I am so glad they got rid of a lot of dumb players on the team, low basketball IQ. But there is a couple players on the team that I still cannot stand. One being Kosta Koufos...the guy is average at best. There is no reason to play him when he doesn't do jack for the team. In fact, he actually hurt the Kings by being on the court because his inability to out-muscled and out-jumped bigger athletic big in the NBA. He doesn't intimidate any one with his length because he has no interior defense. He doesn't hustle and isn't an energy guy. He can't shoot from mid-range well. His hook shots are hit and miss. So what is the reason for playing him? There is too many deficiencies area. Now if you're going to argue that because he's fundamental and that he follow the plays and basically play it the right way....then it doesn't make much sense because again his deficiencies are lacking.
As I've written on a post before, Harry Giles should replaced him. Giles show quickness, excellent help defense because he has excellent awareness. Giles see the floor way better than Kosta. There are times I seen a dude drove to the basket and Kosta was like what's going on? It's pathetic. I am sorry, but Giles is way better and deserve more minutes. Not only that, he hustle, block shots...and probably can shoot too. I mean what more do you want from him? Oh because he doesn't play fundamental like Kosta? Give me a break. From what I seen when Giles is on the court, he play great to me. In fact, he is the reason that put some life into this team with his energy and rebound. His awareness help on weak side defense is amazing. The problem with this young Kings team is IQ and smart plays. And one player that stick out to me with low basketball IQ is Willie Cauley-Stein.
Did you see him try to throw that break away pass only to be intercepted because his thought process is bit delay? When his teammate was open, he didn't pass....but when he passed it, it was too late. And he needs to stop driving the basketball forcing layups like he's the man the team? Seriously? To me, Willie Cauley-Stein IS NOT A STARTER material. I am sorry. The reason he is starting for the team is because the team got nobody tall and lengthy enough to rebound the ball. But the dude is really out of control when driving to the hoop, his mid-range is average at best. The Kings got outrebounded by the Nuggets last night not because of Willie, but because some of their other players are not being taught to box out when the ball is in the air. Players like Bjelicia, Buddy Hield, Bojdanovic and De'Aaron Fox. The problem is also coaching. When you see these many players not doing the fundamental in multiple games, it means there is lack of communications from the coach to the players.
My final statement in addressing the King's issues. The Kings sorely needed BIG men that not only can rebound but also shoot. Tell me how many big men they have that can do both? I am not talking about big men that can just rebound that can't shoot, but a player that can do both. Well, Willie Cauley-Stein is out of the picture because he can't shoot, but just rebound and his low basketball IQ is a no-no. Bagley III might fit the bill because he can definitely shoot and rebound. So is Giles. Need to get rid of Kosta. Today's NBA requires BIG that can shoot and rebound if you want to dominate this league. This is why Denver Nuggets are so dangerous because they have big that can shoot from outside and not just that, they're also great rebounders. So what can the Kings do next year as far as acquiring talents with their expiring contracts? I think you have to look at players like Kevin Love. He fits the bill. Even Cousins fit the bill assuming he's changed but i don't think the Kings are interested. Whiteside might work. Anyway, that's my 2cents on the Kings.
I've been a Kings fan since the Webber's era but have turn away from watching them because they been losing every year and it's hard to watch. I am so glad they got rid of a lot of dumb players on the team, low basketball IQ. But there is a couple players on the team that I still cannot stand. One being Kosta Koufos...the guy is average at best. There is no reason to play him when he doesn't do jack for the team. In fact, he actually hurt the Kings by being on the court because his inability to out-muscled and out-jumped bigger athletic big in the NBA. He doesn't intimidate any one with his length because he has no interior defense. He doesn't hustle and isn't an energy guy. He can't shoot from mid-range well. His hook shots are hit and miss. So what is the reason for playing him? There is too many deficiencies area. Now if you're going to argue that because he's fundamental and that he follow the plays and basically play it the right way....then it doesn't make much sense because again his deficiencies are lacking.
As I've written on a post before, Harry Giles should replaced him. Giles show quickness, excellent help defense because he has excellent awareness. Giles see the floor way better than Kosta. There are times I seen a dude drove to the basket and Kosta was like what's going on? It's pathetic. I am sorry, but Giles is way better and deserve more minutes. Not only that, he hustle, block shots...and probably can shoot too. I mean what more do you want from him? Oh because he doesn't play fundamental like Kosta? Give me a break. From what I seen when Giles is on the court, he play great to me. In fact, he is the reason that put some life into this team with his energy and rebound. His awareness help on weak side defense is amazing. The problem with this young Kings team is IQ and smart plays. And one player that stick out to me with low basketball IQ is Willie Cauley-Stein.
Did you see him try to throw that break away pass only to be intercepted because his thought process is bit delay? When his teammate was open, he didn't pass....but when he passed it, it was too late. And he needs to stop driving the basketball forcing layups like he's the man the team? Seriously? To me, Willie Cauley-Stein IS NOT A STARTER material. I am sorry. The reason he is starting for the team is because the team got nobody tall and lengthy enough to rebound the ball. But the dude is really out of control when driving to the hoop, his mid-range is average at best. The Kings got outrebounded by the Nuggets last night not because of Willie, but because some of their other players are not being taught to box out when the ball is in the air. Players like Bjelicia, Buddy Hield, Bojdanovic and De'Aaron Fox. The problem is also coaching. When you see these many players not doing the fundamental in multiple games, it means there is lack of communications from the coach to the players.
My final statement in addressing the King's issues. The Kings sorely needed BIG men that not only can rebound but also shoot. Tell me how many big men they have that can do both? I am not talking about big men that can just rebound that can't shoot, but a player that can do both. Well, Willie Cauley-Stein is out of the picture because he can't shoot, but just rebound and his low basketball IQ is a no-no. Bagley III might fit the bill because he can definitely shoot and rebound. So is Giles. Need to get rid of Kosta. Today's NBA requires BIG that can shoot and rebound if you want to dominate this league. This is why Denver Nuggets are so dangerous because they have big that can shoot from outside and not just that, they're also great rebounders. So what can the Kings do next year as far as acquiring talents with their expiring contracts? I think you have to look at players like Kevin Love. He fits the bill. Even Cousins fit the bill assuming he's changed but i don't think the Kings are interested. Whiteside might work. Anyway, that's my 2cents on the Kings.
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kingsfan101
Starter
Not exactly. Willie's style of play fits our running style, and hence he has more value to us. Also, with his RFA status, teams are not sure whether they will be able to retain him, and if so, at what cost. So, they won't give up too many assets to get him.
As for getting another big in return, I did assume that the main motivation to trade him would be to beef up the SF position. Other pieces involved would not be significant, and the trade would effectively open up more time for Bagley and Giles. The team can certainly aim towards getting some other big in return. Haven't thought of possible deals towards that though.
As for keeping/trading WCS (or any other player), you don't keep them just for the sake of continuity, and you don't trade them, just because you don't like a particular aspect of their game. WCS serves a role on this team, and does so reasonably well. If you think someone else can do this job better, and have the means to get him, try to do so by all means. This is more true in case of WCS, since he's going to be an RFA, and might cost more than we are willing to pay. That said, just the suggestion to trade him and "get some other big who defends and rebounds" doesn't help. Is such a big available, and at what cost? Then we can have the discussion.
In any case, I don't want to hijack the Giles thread with this discussion anymore. I think if we discuss it more, it should be a separate thread.
Section 101
All-Star
What? They are 100% sure they can retain him. If they dont like the cost that's a different issue.
kingsfan101
Starter
That's what I meant. Sorry, was not clear.
jcassio
Starter
He knew that’s what you meant. He’s just poking the bear.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Yes, it has been a topic.
The randomness is Giles playing time. From DNP, even in some blowouts, to playing in the 1st quarter. I know it's not truly random. But from the outside looking in, there isn't much to show why he plays now and not before. It wasn't even a gradual working in. Wouldn't be such a head scratcher if Giles immediately started getting extra minutes right when Bagley went down.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
I just talked with Giles at Walmart. Told him he’s been developing real nicely and that in 2-3 years, this team will be raw/great. He said they (non-Sacramentans) won’t be talking crap about us no more! Love it haha. He’s really chill and laid back.
I’m definitely rooting for him to succeed.
I’m definitely rooting for him to succeed.
sactowndog
All-Star
Dave is so less than enthusiastic about Giles. Commented about working him in when he can. Thought Giles has a good game and should have had 2 more assists if teammates could convert at the rim.
jcassio
Starter
But... what would Giles be doing at Walmart?
Sluggah
All-Star
Shopping, I’m guessing? Mike Bibby once held the door for me at Dairy Queen. Saw Donte Green at a Safeway. They’re still normal humans.
It could very well be a mental thing and I've thought about it myself but I can't really think of a player that was an explosive athlete, had major knee injuries, didn't seem to have that explosiveness anymore and then got it back one day after trusting in his body. I've also seen him flash really good athleticism but I haven't seen it flashed vertically. I've seen it in other ways like using guard like moves when in the open court. Last night, that And 1 tip in off his own miss was a good example. Bagley and Willie would have flushed that first attempt easily but Harry didn't get enough lift to slam it so he tried to lay it in and it rolled off the rim. Luckily he was athletic and quick enough to get back up for the tip in but it still showed a weakness of his.
jcassio, I'm certainly not negating anything other than the fact that his leaping ability doesn't seem to be as good as it once was. I've been one of the biggest supporters of him since day 1. When others see a guy who can't defend worth a lick, I see a Draymond Green type of defender hiding in there that could come out if he puts it all together some day. I see him being a very versatile player who can stretch the floor or go inside. A guy that could average 4-5 assists a game at the peak of his career if all goes right. He also has very good hands compared to Bagley who gets his hands on everything but can't quite corral the rebounds. I see him being able to do a lot of things well but I don't see him playing above the rim anymore because of his injuries.
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