[Grades] Grades v. Wolves 1/15/2014

I got nothing basketball related, so...Do you prefer dogs or cats?

  • Dogs

    Votes: 35 46.1%
  • Cats

    Votes: 14 18.4%
  • Both

    Votes: 8 10.5%
  • Neither

    Votes: 3 3.9%
  • Depends on the recipe

    Votes: 16 21.1%

  • Total voters
    76
  • Poll closed .
#92
Really? All of the criticism I see here stems from his idiotic behavior in the last five minutes of the game last night where he was repeatedly selfish, then stupid, then selfish again. General criticism regarding his game usually relates to his inconsistent defensive effort, his low ceiling on defensive ability, and his inability or unwillingness to defer to Cousins and Gay when he needs to.

If anyone is denying that he is a stellar offensive guard, then they're not watching him play. The dude can score in bunches, but you can't overlook the negatives just because he is a good offensive player, and especially on the defense-deficient Kings, and ESPECIALLY after he almost single-handedly gave the game away to Minnesota last night.
A little exaggerated but thank you for saying a positive word about IT. It does get tiresome hearing the constant negative vibe about a guy who is not bad overall.
 
#93
A little exaggerated but thank you for saying a positive word about IT. It does get tiresome hearing the constant negative vibe about a guy who is not bad overall.
I've been a big IT fan since he played in Washington. He plays with the self-confidence and fire that can lead to some great things and almost as often makes it hard to settle down when settling down is the right thing to do. I don't think there is a cure to the defensive deficiencies, physics and biology being what they are. That doesn't mean he's not a valuable player and easily the best guard on the roster. It's more a question of long-term fit. Is he too good to be happy as a sixth-man? Probably. Cousins and Gay are built for grind-it-out, half-court basketball. IT is not. He would be fantastic on an up-tempo team like New Orleans, Denver, or the D'antoni Lakers.
 
#94
.......IT's most ardent acolytes might shrug off his flaws. they might attempt to deflect or outright deny these criticisms, but i guarantee that PDA and coach malone are giving serious thought to the above questions as the trade deadline approaches. i've said it before and i'll say it again: when the golden era sacramento kings decided to get serious about competing in the playoffs, they traded their erratic, unreliable, offensively-gifted, indisputable fan favorite starting PG in jason williams for a considerably less sexy but considerably more steady starting PG in mike bibby...
...who didn't play D very well, and was mediocre at setting up the offense... :)

having Vlade Webber and Christie on your team gives you HUGE flexibility on who you plug in at the PG.... i'd be much happier getting a christie then replacing IT with a bibby
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#95
This guy worries WAY too much what people think.

Isaiah Thomas ‏@Isaiah_Thomas2
@CarmichaelDave we won right? Relax with all that. Stay in your lane and be a fan! If u have something to say @ me... Have a blessed day

Isaiah Thomas ‏@Isaiah_Thomas2
Hahaha we win they talk, we lose they talk! I guess they gotta do something to feel like there somebody!
Is this for real? I was going to write a long note on IT's total lack of introspection, the inability to admit weakness, the inability to see that he has issues. He dumps the problems on others and THAT is not a team man. Consider Gay who scored 12 points against Indiana who apologized to the team. There is a difference in character and I know his defenders will say that this is one instance. There are many instances and it is a waste of my energy to enumerate them as they will be explained away also. We want a team. I hope that is the new culture. We don't want a 4 man team with one guy who seems to fit except for his attitude. The day will come when we may find better. I wouldn't settle for this just because he is the best we have at the moment.
 
#97
Is this for real? I was going to write a long note on IT's total lack of introspection, the inability to admit weakness, the inability to see that he has issues. He dumps the problems on others and THAT is not a team man. Consider Gay who scored 12 points against Indiana who apologized to the team. There is a difference in character and I know his defenders will say that this is one instance. There are many instances and it is a waste of my energy to enumerate them as they will be explained away also. We want a team. I hope that is the new culture. We don't want a 4 man team with one guy who seems to fit except for his attitude. The day will come when we may find better. I wouldn't settle for this just because he is the best we have at the moment.

I agree. However, that unshakeable confidence and unwavering belief in himself is probably what got IT to this point. To be fair, all the odds have been against him and he's overcome them to become a good NBA player. I like IT. He's still pretty young, he's only been a starter less than 20 games. You'd hope that as he gets better on the court, he also starts to realise that him acknowledging when he's had a bad game can help. Maybe he has in private to his team-mates, who knows?

I criticised IT a lot last night but it's time to move on from that. That DOESN'T change the fact that IT is more suited to 6th man, where he can undoubtedly be the best 6th man in the NBA. As a starter he will put up good numbers because he's a good offensive player. Can get into the lane and is a good shooter. His problems are that he's way too loose with the ball, especially in crunch time. That's correctable with time. What's generally not correctable is him being 5'9'' with generally pourous defense and a natural scorers mentality. It's a double edged sword. Personally I'd love to keep him if he'd accept 4, maybe 5 mil per year deal and was willing to come off the bench. As a starter he is too limited defensively to start on a championship level team. The flip side is that he could be a hugely valuable piece off the bench for that same competitive team. I just felt I needed to put my opinion out there on him in case people feel I actually dislike the little guy. I don't. He has some great qualities - fearlessness, leadership (I think there's a leader in him, he just doesn't know when to accept responsibility yet), can get you back into a game by himself (and get you out of one if he goes into hero mode when he shouldn't). He's a valuable piece and I'd love to keep him at the right price.

As for the tweets, it's easy for him to feel like he shouldn't be criticised by fans. He's the one with legitimate NBA talent while a bunch of guys who couldn't tie his shoe laces are criticising his every flaw. But that's what fans do, and he'll probably come to realise sooner rather than later that not only should he not take it personally, but also that people do this because he's talented, and doesn't need to be making these mistakes. That's why IT gets more attention than the SG debacle right now - we've all seen IT have great games where he does almost everything that he can do correctly. The SG position just seems like a lost cause right now.
 
#98
Yea he posted it a little over an hour ago
I'm dumbfounded. That was a response to this tweet from Carmichael Dave?

Carmichael Dave @carmichaeldave 1m While IT is jumping up and down calling for the ball with :22 on the clock, Gay grabs it, holds it like a NOT MORON, and calmly hits the 3.

For dime dropper, how quickly we all forget the 62 games he started last year. And the 37 in year 1. He had 99 starts prior to this season.
 
#99
I'm dumbfounded. That was a response to this tweet from Carmichael Dave?

Carmichael Dave @carmichaeldave 1m While IT is jumping up and down calling for the ball with :22 on the clock, Gay grabs it, holds it like a NOT MORON, and calmly hits the 3.
He had another tweet right after that saying something like "The Kings hold on for the win despite the Pizza Guy trying to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory" or something along those lines
 
This guy worries WAY too much what people think.

Isaiah Thomas ‏@Isaiah_Thomas2
@CarmichaelDave we won right? Relax with all that. Stay in your lane and be a fan! If u have something to say @ me... Have a blessed day

Isaiah Thomas ‏@Isaiah_Thomas2
Hahaha we win they talk, we lose they talk! I guess they gotta do something to feel like there somebody!
Given the consistently improving chemistry between Cuz/Rudy and how much they're pulling one another aside during games, and given IT's change or attempt to change his style of play over the last two weeks, I really do think he was a big, if not the biggest topic in that team meeting a couple weeks ago.

I'm seeing evidence mounting that we don't have a big 3, rather a big 2, Rudy/Cuz and the team sees it that way. I assume PDA/Malone see it that way. I see Rudy/Cuz talking/communicating and generally getting along better on the floor than I do IT/Cuz or Rudy/IT. I don't see any great confidence in IT from Gay/Cuz nor do I see all that good of chemistry between Gay/Cuz and IT. And going back the meeting, it appears to me an issue is that Gay/Cuz see themselves as the big 2 and IT sees himself as part of a big 3 and he appears to be getting increasingly frustrated by it.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
Given the consistently improving chemistry between Cuz/Rudy and how much they're pulling one another aside during games, and given IT's change or attempt to change his style of play over the last two weeks, I really do think he was a big, if not the biggest topic in that team meeting a couple weeks ago.

I'm seeing evidence mounting that we don't have a big 3, rather a big 2, Rudy/Cuz and the team sees it that way. I assume PDA/Malone see it that way. I see Rudy/Cuz talking/communicating and generally getting along better on the floor than I do IT/Cuz or Rudy/IT. I don't see any great confidence in IT from Gay/Cuz nor do I see all that good of chemistry between Gay/Cuz and IT. And going back the meeting, it appears to me an issue is that Gay/Cuz see themselves as the big 2 and IT sees himself as part of a big 3 and he appears to be getting increasingly frustrated by it.
Good guess I think.
 
...who didn't play D very well, and was mediocre at setting up the offense... :)

having Vlade Webber and Christie on your team gives you HUGE flexibility on who you plug in at the PG.... i'd be much happier getting a christie then replacing IT with a bibby
that may be, but my point still stands. when demarcus cousins and rudy gay are your primary talents going forward, you don't need flash or big time scoring from the PG position, and you certainly don't need unreliability or lapses into hero ball from the PG position. a steadier hand who can effectively move the ball, play a bit of defense, and otherwise stay out of the way would do just fine...
 
Given the consistently improving chemistry between Cuz/Rudy and how much they're pulling one another aside during games, and given IT's change or attempt to change his style of play over the last two weeks, I really do think he was a big, if not the biggest topic in that team meeting a couple weeks ago.

I'm seeing evidence mounting that we don't have a big 3, rather a big 2, Rudy/Cuz and the team sees it that way. I assume PDA/Malone see it that way. I see Rudy/Cuz talking/communicating and generally getting along better on the floor than I do IT/Cuz or Rudy/IT. I don't see any great confidence in IT from Gay/Cuz nor do I see all that good of chemistry between Gay/Cuz and IT. And going back the meeting, it appears to me an issue is that Gay/Cuz see themselves as the big 2 and IT sees himself as part of a big 3 and he appears to be getting increasingly frustrated by it.
Rudy looked off IT when he was calling for the ball multiple times at the end of that game.
 
that may be, but my point still stands. when demarcus cousins and rudy gay are your primary talents going forward, you don't need flash or big time scoring from the PG position, and you certainly don't need unreliability or lapses into hero ball from the PG position. a steadier hand who can move the ball, play a bit of defense, and otherwise stay out of the way would do just fine...
exactly, look what happened last night for the final 4 minutes when he played keep away from DeMarcus and Rudy
 
I'm dumbfounded. That was a response to this tweet from Carmichael Dave?

Carmichael Dave @carmichaeldave 1m While IT is jumping up and down calling for the ball with :22 on the clock, Gay grabs it, holds it like a NOT MORON, and calmly hits the 3.

For dime dropper, how quickly we all forget the 62 games he started last year. And the 37 in year 1. He had 99 starts prior to this season.
I'm not his biggest fan, most people know that. Just trying to provide some balance to my view of him. I don't want him as our starter going forward, I want him as our 6th man. Personally I think he will be traded before the deadline because it's highly unlikely he will accept <5m per.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
that may be, but my point still stands. when demarcus cousins and rudy gay are your primary talents going forward, you don't need flash or big time scoring from the PG position, and you certainly don't need unreliability or lapses into hero ball from the PG position. a steadier hand who can effectively move the ball, play a bit of defense, and otherwise stay out of the way would do just fine...
...... and that's it. Just wanted to accent your point. We don't need a star at pg, not that a star wouldn't be nice, but we don't need one. Finances may dictate the direction we go and I think IT's ego may price him out of our range given our needs. He may fit very well elsewhere. >> That's what counts, isn't it? What's best for IT must be the focus. /sarcasm mode off
 
Another question, that will come out in the summer if IT is still on the team, but FO consider him as a 6th man: somebody throws MLE ($6.5 million per this summer, might be a bit more in the upcoming off-season) at him with a promise to be a starter. What's the least amount he will accept to play from the bench for the Kings? Can't be less than $7.5 million per, right?
 
For one day I would like to see the people on this forum followed around and criticized the way the Kings are. For some people being negative is a habit that they can't break. The team just won 4 out of 5 games. What else do you want?

...... and that's it. Just wanted to accent your point. We don't need a star at pg, not that a star wouldn't be nice, but we don't need one. Finances may dictate the direction we go and I think IT's ego may price him out of our range given our needs. He may fit very well elsewhere. >> That's what counts, isn't it? What's best for IT must be the focus. /sarcasm mode off
IT is the lowest paid productive PG in the NBA. He has a strong belief in God. What makes you think his "ego may price him out of our range given our needs?"
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
For one day I would like to see the people on this forum followed around and criticized the way the Kings are. For some people being negative is a habit that they can't break. The team just won 4 out of 5 games. What else do you want?



IT is the lowest paid productive PG in the NBA. He has a strong belief in God. What makes you think his "ego may price him out of our range given our needs?"
His stated goal is to be the best small man in the history of the NBA. It's not to be on an NBA champion, it's not to lead a great team but it's to be the personal best. The only way that I can see for a short person to be considered the best is to pile up offensive stats. He needs to score a lot. Scoring in the NBA is valued over defense and assists when it comes time to writing a check. The Kings do not need a pg who wants to score a lot. There will be teams who want a guy who can score like he scores and they may be willing to pay a lot for him. We shouldn't be competing with teams like that in a price war. I don't understand the reference to a strong belief in God.

Contrast that to Boogie who wants to stay in Sacramento and sees it as his goal to carry the team to greater glory.
 
Excerpt from an earlier Slam interview:

SLAM: Do you have goals, like starting?

IT: Yeah, that’s my goal—to be the starting point guard, and let it be known that I’m a legitimate starter in this league and showcase my skills. But at the same time, I’m willing to do anything that’s best for the team, especially if it has to do with winning.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Isaiah Thomas 1st half: 6 assists. 2nd half: one assist. Kings shooting percentage pretty much stayed the same for a long portion of the second half. That my friend is selfish playplay
I had him as a grade, and in briefer fashion what I saw was this:

-- before half IT tried to play PG, but as has been the case for weeks now, that had erratic results. Some very nice PG plays, and then a number of plays where he just didn't look comfortable and stumbled around, grew tentative, threw bad passes etc. And that's what I've been seeing for weeks. I think when he has to play PG, he has to think about it too much, and his whole game grows erratic.
-- in the third quarter he increasingly quit trying to play PG, and slipped back toward his natural comfort zone as miniature gunner guard. But thing is, that's what he's best at, that's what his instincts are geared toward, and so he personally was very effective, but selfishness crept in as usual. That's the tradeoff.
-- then down the stretch...that was a disaster. And at times it looked like we had the worst of first half Isaiah -- the having to think about it, tentative, mistake prone guy trying to force himself to play a certain way, mixed with a toxic amount of the 3rd quarter little selfish undisciplined gunner gone cold.


I do BTW think he is trying. Malone seems to have made it clear what he's looking for. But when he is playing it the way Malone wants it played, the dynamic Isaiah is missing and we get sort of an erratic on and off lower tier PG instead. He has been making a handful of really good PG plays every game, and then matching them with more than a handful of jittery inexperienced stuff every time out as well. And every game his best stretches are normally when he drops the pretense and goes back to his natural gunning nature. How this all plays out I'm not sure. But there are two things I am convinced of: 1) if you are looking for a real PG, there are dozens of better and more experienced options around the league than Isaiah Thomas faking it; 2) if you are looking for a little gunning 6th man change of pace type guy, there are only a handful of options around the league in Isaiah Thomas's class. We are making the right attempt to convert him, and frankly despite Isaiah's erratic play I don't think its a complete coincidence that especially since that meeting IT has spent stretches trying to have some discipline, and we are suddenly winning games. I think its the right idea for this team, I just think it might be the wrong player for that idea, and regardless I don't think its how you get the most out IT on a personal level.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
I had him as a grade, and in briefer fashion what I saw was this:

-- before half IT tried to play PG, but as has been the case for weeks now, that had erratic results. Some very nice PG plays, and then a number of plays where he just didn't look comfortable and stumbled around, grew tentative, threw bad passes etc. And that's what I've been seeing for weeks. I think when he has to play PG, he has to think about it too much, and his whole game grows erratic.
-- in the third quarter he increasingly quit trying to play PG, and slipped back toward his natural comfort zone as miniature gunner guard. But thing is, that's what he's best at, that's what his instincts are geared toward, and so he personally was very effective, but selfishness crept in as usual. That's the tradeoff.
-- then down the stretch...that was a disaster. And at times it looked like we had the worst of first half Isaiah -- the having to think about it, tentative, mistake prone guy trying to force himself to play a certain way, mixed with a toxic amount of the 3rd quarter little selfish undisciplined gunner gone cold.


I do BTW think he is trying. Malone seems to have made it clear what he's looking for. But when he is playing it the way Malone wants it played, the dynamic Isaiah is missing and we get sort of an erratic on and off lower tier PG instead. He has been making a handful of really good PG plays every game, and then matching them with more than a handful of jittery inexperienced stuff every time out as well. And every game his best stretches are normally when he drops the pretense and goes back to his natural gunning nature. How this all plays out I'm not sure. But there are two things I am convinced of: 1) if you are looking for a real PG, there are dozens of better and more experienced options around the league than Isaiah Thomas faking it; 2) if you are looking for a little gunning 6th man change of pace type guy, there are only a handful of options around the league in Isaiah Thomas's class. We are making the right attempt to convert him, and frankly despite Isaiah's erratic play I don't think its a complete coincidence that especially since that meeting IT has spent stretches trying to have some discipline, and we are suddenly winning games. I think its the right idea for this team, I just think it might be the wrong player for that idea, and regardless I don't think its how you get the most out IT on a personal level.
Thank you. Brick's post is not critical of IT and shouldn't be interpreted as such. It is saying it as it is. We are trying to put a square plug in a round hole and eventually that isn't ideal. Too often that has been the Kings' mindset although under a different coach. Let's not move forward after this season with the same mind set. IT either has to take a lower salary than people think he is worth and be a 6th man (extremely unlikely) or move to another team which I think would be best for the Kings AND IT.
 
Aside from the fact it's missing two tires, my Corvette drives great!
I'd rather have a two wheeled Corvette than a Daewoo.

How about we just go pick up one of our old Daewoo's in Beno Udrih, Pooh Jeter, Jason Hart, Ronnie Price, Sergio Rodriguez, Luther Head or Anthony Johnson? Those guys must have all been way better than Thomas because the board complained less about them combined in their respective careers than they have with Thomas this year alone.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
For one day I would like to see the people on this forum followed around and criticized the way the Kings are.
Pay me what the Kings are being paid and follow away...

Sports forums exist so people can rant and complain, dare to dream, hypothesize about better combinations, etc. Do some go overboard? Of course. But it's not like they're actually doing anything to harm the player or his game or his ability. They're making comments on the Interweb. It ain't always pretty...
 
For one day I would like to see the people on this forum followed around and criticized the way the Kings are. For some people being negative is a habit that they can't break. The team just won 4 out of 5 games. What else do you want?



IT is the lowest paid productive PG in the NBA. He has a strong belief in God. What makes you think his "ego may price him out of our range given our needs?"
I fail to see what this has to do with anything - utter nonsense. Isaiah is probably going to want more than the 4-5 million per that some of us believe he's worth (off the bench). And you know what, why wouldn't he? Basketball is a short career, you can't blame him for taking the best financial deal if that's what he does.