[Grades] Grades v. Wolves 03/21/2013

[The_Jamal]

Yup. Evans is always taking a backseat when he's on the court with Cousins and IT. The thing is, we all know that Tyreke is not a very good off the ball player. He's gotten better, but his off the ball game is average at best. So how in the world do we expect him to be aggressive if he isn't getting the ball in his hands and getting good screens set for him? I really urge you guys to re-watch that stint with Aldrich if you didn't notice it the first time. AK was getting caught on screens and Evans was either getting to the basket or on that one time found Aldrich rolling to the basket for an open dunk. JT on the other hand sets screens that IT or Tyreke himself would get around with no problem.

A good coach would find a way to utilize IT's shooting and Cuz and Tyreke without taking any of them out of a rhythm. I also find it ridiculous that Tyreke is made to sit such a big part of the first/second and then expected to play the entire second half. Dumb coaching. But to Smart's credit, the rotations the last few games have been much much tighter, and I wouldn't be surprised if that contributed to our wins.

Exactly. Which is why I'm always a bit shocked by how much people want IT gone. The guy can be an incredibly effective 3rd option if we get him in the right system playing off Reke and Cousins. IT is someone I could see adapting his game as well; he's not a volume scorer in the mold of a Monta, Thornton, Jennings type player.

And I agree about Aldrich and to a lesser extent with Ppat about how their screens have really opened up the offense. That initial screen is absolutely crucial: It allows penetration (which we have an assortment of guys who can do very well), collapses the defense and opens up shooters on the 3pt line.

 

[mac]

Exactly. Which is why I'm always a bit shocked by how much people want IT gone. The guy can be an incredibly effective 3rd option if we get him in the right system playing off Reke and Cousins. IT is someone I could see adapting his game as well; he's not a volume scorer in the mold of a Monta, Thornton, Jennings type player.

And I agree about Aldrich and to a lesser extent with Ppat about how their screens have really opened up the offense. That initial screen is absolutely crucial: It allows penetration (which we have an assortment of guys who can do very well), collapses the defense and opens up shooters on the 3pt line.

I can't speak for others, but personally I don't want IT gone, and I don't think many do either. I've said many times the guy is a valuable and talented player. He's just in the wrong role for us to be winning right now IMO, and that is either Smart's doing or his own, or sometimes a bit of both. I just want him to defer to Evans and Cousins and play as a 3rd or 4th option like you said. If all it takes is a new coach to get him into such a role then by all means, keep the guy. However, we need to keep in mind that he doesn't have much value on defense. He can be pesky at times and his quickness is a plus, but his size DOES matter. It makes him less effective closing out, less able to get through screens and definitely becomes an issue on switches. The way I see it, we only have enough room for 1 offensive 3rd option that hurts us on D, so either IT or MT has to go in favor of a defensive role player.

 

[rainmaker]

IT is a scorer, and a scorer who needs the ball. That's the role in which he excels. I personally don't think he's good enough to have that responsibility as a starter(although he thinks he does) and would prefer him as a 6th man. He should be able to excel in that role, being able to gun away and be aggressive without stepping on the toes of Reke/Cuz.

However, we also have Douglas and MT. They both enter into this. Douglas I hope we resign. I'd hope for a better PG next year than either Douglas or IT, and who knows, maybe a new coach moves Reke back to point. If Douglas were to start at PG next year, IT can be a 6th man type. But if Douglas is brought back as a backup and we upgrade the PG spot, then I'd pick Douglas over IT assuming MT is here.

And MT is the other part of the equation. We don't need both IT and MT. Both are 6th man types. Both need shots to keep a rhythm. Both are better with a non-scorer next to them. Really, it's do we want IT or MT as our 6th man. When considering defense and how MT can mix with Reke/Cuz, I'd keep MT over IT and run a Douglas/MT backcourt off the bench. Only way IT works as a 6th man for me is if MT is traded. At the same time, we can't keep MT unless our next coach plays Reke at point next to MT. In that scenario, if Reke is either starting at point or getting backup point mins next to MT, then where's the need for IT?

It's not as simple as just moving IT to the bench. We have a bunch of moving parts which are all related. Move IT to the bench, then what about Douglas? I'd be willing to let Douglas have a shot starting next year but wouldn't be surprised if new management/ownership goes for more of an upgrade. Would you rather IT or Douglas off the bench? Which one fits better with MT? Is MT even here?

And I question how much good a better coach would do for IT. His Napoleon complex can really get out of control at times. He doesn't recognize he's the 3rd option at best. It's about him just about every night. Reke steps back and recognizes Cuz is the top option every night. Yet IT basically refuses to step back. But then you get into what happens when he does, like last night where it seemed at halftime Smart got into him and told him to give Reke the damn ball. Well, then he turns into a 5'9" off the ball player. People need to get off this IT is a playmaker crap. He'll either dominate the ball and be aggressive, or give up the ball and play off it. So whether with Smart or a new coach, if he's playing off Reke or whomever, he's essentially a 5'9" off guard. That won't work.

What's a better three guard rotation next year, hypothetically?

Douglas/Reke/MT
or
IT/Reke/MT

The former is better defensively, has one guy more than comfortable taking a backseat, giving up the ball, and two guys who can draw and kick to a more off the ball player in MT.

The latter hasn't worked. One is always left out.Two guys looking to dominate the ball and competing for touches, while MT usually gets left out, or one is creating for/looking for MT while the other of IT/Reke becomes a bystander. The latter is also worse defensively.

You know who Douglas reminds me of? Hinrich. The exact type of player you'd want to pair Reke with if Reke is a 2. If Reke plays point, then keeping MT makes even more sense and Douglas probably fits better next to both. Only way I see IT working going forward is if Douglas starts next to Reke and MT is traded, Reke/MT start and IT comes off the bench or we have a new PG, IT off the bench with Douglas gone and MT gone.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

What's a better three guard rotation next year, hypothetically?

Douglas/Reke/MT
or
IT/Reke/MT

Offseason acquisition/Reke/MT

 

[DesertFox]

Is MT 7 million dollars better than IT? And what can IT and his 2nd round salary net in a trade?

 

[ParniValjak]

Offseason acquisition/Reke/MT

Jarrett Jack/Reke/MT

But I think we will see more of Evans as the lead guard next year!

 

[CruzDude]

The "Reke-at-PG" crowd forget about court vision. All the good and really good PG have it and use it and involve their team mates by keeping the ball moving. Reke does not have it. He is and always will be a SG, a shooter/scorer. Ahh, but isn't that also MT and IT? Reke is far the better defender and so is Douglas. Whoops, Douglas now. What is he? Ahh, a PG. A facilitator, an involver, one who keeps the ball moving, who gets players moving and a super defender.

Toney is one of only two with really good court vision along with Chuck Hayes. Cuz is getting there and once he learns what is a good pass he'll remind us more about Vlade.

Back to the perpetual PG dialog. A good PG needs a good, firm coach. One out of two doesn't hack it. Until Kings get a good, firm coach, same old problem continues, trying to be friends with everybody and letting players do what they want, even (especially) when it doesn't work.

 

[Padrino]

The "Reke-at-PG" crowd forget about court vision. All the good and really good PG have it and use it and involve their team mates by keeping the ball moving. Reke does not have it. He is and always will be a SG, a shooter/scorer. Ahh, but isn't that also MT and IT? Reke is far the better defender and so is Douglas. Whoops, Douglas now. What is he? Ahh, a PG. A facilitator, an involver, one who keeps the ball moving, who gets players moving and a super defender.

Toney is one of only two with really good court vision along with Chuck Hayes. Cuz is getting there and once he learns what is a good pass he'll remind us more about Vlade.

Back to the perpetual PG dialog. A good PG needs a good, firm coach. One out of two doesn't hack it. Until Kings get a good, firm coach, same old problem continues, trying to be friends with everybody and letting players do what they want, even (especially) when it doesn't work.

ya know, you reke-is-absolutely-not-a-PG types can claim that he does not have court vision all you want, but it's not gonna become any closer to resembling a factual statement through the simple act of repetition. tyreke consistently hits his teammates on the drive-and-kick, a real-time decision-making process that requires considerable court vision, whether the naysayers want to admit it or not. and when a king actually manages to make a strong cut to the hoop, tyreke consistently gets the ball to them, as well. example: in the tight fourth quarter of the kings' last game against minnesota, 'reke makes the smart pass over the outstretched arms of his man and the help defense to hit a striding cole aldrich on his way to the hoop (video evidence here: http://youtu.be/Qbh2-eyii38?t=2m4s). whoooaaa. court vision. seriously, one need not be a steve nash-level passer to have it...



furthermore, tyreke certainly doesn't need to play at the one in order to involve his teammates. i'd rather he stay at the two, regardless, but truth be told, when the ball is in his hands he manages to be the kings' most consistent playmaker no matter what position he's at...

 

[pshn80]

ya know, you reke-is-absolutely-not-a-PG types can claim that he does not have court vision all you want, but it's not gonna become any closer to resembling a factual statement through the simple act of repetition. tyreke consistently hits his teammates on the drive-and-kick, a real-time decision-making process that requires considerable court vision, whether the naysayers want to admit it or not. and when a king actually manages to make a strong cut to the hoop, tyreke consistently gets the ball to them, as well. example: in the tight fourth quarter of the kings' last game against minnesota, 'reke makes the smart pass over the outstretched arms of his man and the help defense to hit a striding cole aldrich on his way to the hoop (video evidence here: http://youtu.be/Qbh2-eyii38?t=2m4s). whoooaaa. court vision. seriously, one need not be a steve nash-level passer to have it...



furthermore, tyreke certainly doesn't need to play at the one in order to involve his teammates. i'd rather he stay at the two, regardless, but truth be told, when the ball is in his hands he manages to be the kings' most consistent playmaker no matter what position he's at...

Tyreke as a ball handler can work well for short periods like the other night in the 4th Q but I think you're right, it's not a good answer full-time. In the wonderful 4th Q it was all Evans, no one else touched the ball, and Evans sat outside dribbling the ball, waiting for the right moment, and then scoting. It was great. It won't work full-time and I don't want to see it full-time. Personally, I think Evans, IT and Salmons can work it out together quite well. They are getting better and better at it. Look again, we are working in the right direction and getting better. Wrong time to bring in Lebron James.

 

[bajaden]

I can't speak for others, but personally I don't want IT gone, and I don't think many do either. I've said many times the guy is a valuable and talented player. He's just in the wrong role for us to be winning right now IMO, and that is either Smart's doing or his own, or sometimes a bit of both. I just want him to defer to Evans and Cousins and play as a 3rd or 4th option like you said. If all it takes is a new coach to get him into such a role then by all means, keep the guy. However, we need to keep in mind that he doesn't have much value on defense. He can be pesky at times and his quickness is a plus, but his size DOES matter. It makes him less effective closing out, less able to get through screens and definitely becomes an issue on switches. The way I see it, we only have enough room for 1 offensive 3rd option that hurts us on D, so either IT or MT has to go in favor of a defensive role player.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with both your guys to some extent. It might just come down to a matter of taste, or perhaps not getting into the details enough. But if what you want is Tyreke standing at the top of the circle dribbling the ball for 20 seconds of the 24 second shot clock, then you lose me. Thats exactly what he did several times in the last game. Now I grant you that he was successful most of the time in the second half, but there are games where he isn't successful. I just don't want winning and losing being determined by one player, or even two players. And that doesn't mean that two or three players won't get the bulk of the minutes and shots, its about how they get those shots.

If Tyreke is having a night where the other teams defense is set up to stop him from getting to the basket, then he has to defer to others to score, or to help him get to the basket with screens, or off of cuts. There have been nights where Tyreke keeps pounding into the lane and getting rejected or turning the ball over. Cousins is guilty of doing the same thing at times. One of the most important parts of basketball, after skill level, is making good decisions with the ball. And thats Tyreke's biggest weakness now. Its not a huge weakness, but its something he has to work on. Its called BBIQ.

I'am, and will always be a team guy. I like ball movement and player movement. You get easy baskets that way, and you get everyone involved. What I don't like is when teammates take turns going one on one. I hate poor screens, and I hate guards that don't know how to use a screen properly, and neither Thornton or IT use screens properly. Tyreke is just so so, and of course with Tyreke the opposition knows he's not going to come off a screen and shoot the ball. He's just going to try and get to the basket. Until he's able to pull up off a screen and hit a shot, the middle will remain clogged.

Where we do agree is that both Tyreke and Cuz are surpremely talented, and neither is being used properly. The Kings for the most part are very predictable. When your predictable, your easier to defend. Defensively, we have people that don't rotate, and at times double someone that doesn't need doubling, thereby breaking down our defense, or what there is of it, for no reason at all. We have players that gamble in passing lanes with no one having their backs if they don't get the steal. Thats a hero play, that you just don't do unless you know you've got the steal or that someone is protecting the basket. These are just small things that don't individually determine the outcome of a game, but when put together they can. Personally, I'm not into hero's or being upset if my favorite player doesn't get as many shots as I think he should. However, I'am into being upset with a player that starts jacking up shot after shot when he's cold.

Let me put it this way. If Cousins were to only take 5 shots in a game and only score 6 or 8 pts, but pull down 15 boards and have 7 assists and we win by 20 points, I'm happy! Sure I would have liked Cuz to score a bunch of points, but as long as he does other things that help the team win and we win, then whats to ***** about. None of these guys are an extension of my manhood. They're here today and gone tomorrow. Hopefully neither Tyreke or Cuz are gone tomorrow.

 

[pshn80]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with both your guys to some extent. It might just come down to a matter of taste, or perhaps not getting into the details enough. But if what you want is Tyreke standing at the top of the circle dribbling the ball for 20 seconds of the 24 second shot clock, then you lose me. Thats exactly what he did several times in the last game. Now I grant you that he was successful most of the time in the second half, but there are games where he isn't successful. I just don't want winning and losing being determined by one player, or even two players. And that doesn't mean that two or three players won't get the bulk of the minutes and shots, its about how they get those shots.

If Tyreke is having a night where the other teams defense is set up to stop him from getting to the basket, then he has to defer to others to score, or to help him get to the basket with screens, or off of cuts. There have been nights where Tyreke keeps pounding into the lane and getting rejected or turning the ball over. Cousins is guilty of doing the same thing at times. One of the most important parts of basketball, after skill level, is making good decisions with the ball. And thats Tyreke's biggest weakness now. Its not a huge weakness, but its something he has to work on. Its called BBIQ.

I'am, and will always be a team guy. I like ball movement and player movement. You get easy baskets that way, and you get everyone involved. What I don't like is when teammates take turns going one on one. I hate poor screens, and I hate guards that don't know how to use a screen properly, and neither Thornton or IT use screens properly. Tyreke is just so so, and of course with Tyreke the opposition knows he's not going to come off a screen and shoot the ball. He's just going to try and get to the basket. Until he's able to pull up off a screen and hit a shot, the middle will remain clogged.

Where we do agree is that both Tyreke and Cuz are surpremely talented, and neither is being used properly. The Kings for the most part are very predictable. When your predictable, your easier to defend. Defensively, we have people that don't rotate, and at times double someone that doesn't need doubling, thereby breaking down our defense, or what there is of it, for no reason at all. We have players that gamble in passing lanes with no one having their backs if they don't get the steal. Thats a hero play, that you just don't do unless you know you've got the steal or that someone is protecting the basket. These are just small things that don't individually determine the outcome of a game, but when put together they can. Personally, I'm not into hero's or being upset if my favorite player doesn't get as many shots as I think he should. However, I'am into being upset with a player that starts jacking up shot after shot when he's cold.

Let me put it this way. If Cousins were to only take 5 shots in a game and only score 6 or 8 pts, but pull down 15 boards and have 7 assists and we win by 20 points, I'm happy! Sure I would have liked Cuz to score a bunch of points, but as long as he does other things that help the team win and we win, then whats to ***** about. None of these guys are an extension of my manhood. They're here today and gone tomorrow. Hopefully neither Tyreke or Cuz are gone tomorrow.

I a pologize for reporting baja's whole post but it was so great and reflective of my views, I just had to do it. Great post, baja. I wish I could have said it as well myself.

 

[The_Jamal]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with both your guys to some extent. It might just come down to a matter of taste, or perhaps not getting into the details enough. But if what you want is Tyreke standing at the top of the circle dribbling the ball for 20 seconds of the 24 second shot clock, then you lose me. Thats exactly what he did several times in the last game. Now I grant you that he was successful most of the time in the second half, but there are games where he isn't successful. I just don't want winning and losing being determined by one player, or even two players. And that doesn't mean that two or three players won't get the bulk of the minutes and shots, its about how they get those shots.

If Tyreke is having a night where the other teams defense is set up to stop him from getting to the basket, then he has to defer to others to score, or to help him get to the basket with screens, or off of cuts. There have been nights where Tyreke keeps pounding into the lane and getting rejected or turning the ball over. Cousins is guilty of doing the same thing at times. One of the most important parts of basketball, after skill level, is making good decisions with the ball. And thats Tyreke's biggest weakness now. Its not a huge weakness, but its something he has to work on. Its called BBIQ.

I'am, and will always be a team guy. I like ball movement and player movement. You get easy baskets that way, and you get everyone involved. What I don't like is when teammates take turns going one on one. I hate poor screens, and I hate guards that don't know how to use a screen properly, and neither Thornton or IT use screens properly. Tyreke is just so so, and of course with Tyreke the opposition knows he's not going to come off a screen and shoot the ball. He's just going to try and get to the basket. Until he's able to pull up off a screen and hit a shot, the middle will remain clogged.

Where we do agree is that both Tyreke and Cuz are surpremely talented, and neither is being used properly. The Kings for the most part are very predictable. When your predictable, your easier to defend. Defensively, we have people that don't rotate, and at times double someone that doesn't need doubling, thereby breaking down our defense, or what there is of it, for no reason at all. We have players that gamble in passing lanes with no one having their backs if they don't get the steal. Thats a hero play, that you just don't do unless you know you've got the steal or that someone is protecting the basket. These are just small things that don't individually determine the outcome of a game, but when put together they can. Personally, I'm not into hero's or being upset if my favorite player doesn't get as many shots as I think he should. However, I'am into being upset with a player that starts jacking up shot after shot when he's cold.

Let me put it this way. If Cousins were to only take 5 shots in a game and only score 6 or 8 pts, but pull down 15 boards and have 7 assists and we win by 20 points, I'm happy! Sure I would have liked Cuz to score a bunch of points, but as long as he does other things that help the team win and we win, then whats to ***** about. None of these guys are an extension of my manhood. They're here today and gone tomorrow. Hopefully neither Tyreke or Cuz are gone tomorrow.

You're preaching to the choir here. My main point, which you brought up, is we don't have a single-player who's being used to maximize his talents. A majority of our offense is based out of ISO sets and depend on a lot of creativity to score points. Very rarely do we see any set plays that get any of our guys easy looks. I'm also in the boat of not caring who gets shots; if Travis Outlaw wakes up and decides to be LeBron for a game, then give him ball and move out of the way!

 

[pshn80]

Preaching to the choir but right on.

On the point that it is too much ISO, I agree, but if you don't recognize the improvements we've made then you've missed a very important change in process. Our guys including our two stars are slow learners on moving smartly without the ball and the smart passing that goes with it. But they are improving if rather slowly. Keep on truckin'.

A coach can set up and call a play which includes moving without the ball and passing but the best basketball player does it all the time, even when he is standing still. It is a lot to ask and can't easily be taught but I expect our guys to keep getting better at it all the time. Tap, tap, tap, hear now choir, are you listening?