[Grades] Grades v. Warriors 03/13/12

[Bricklayer]

This team is just constructed wrong, our three stars all need the ball in their hands to be effective, No one in our team is effective off the ball, Its the problem the Thunder have, except their stars are so good it doesn't even matter. Our "stars" are inconsitent and not nearly as good as Durant, Westbrook, Harden

All stars need to have the ball in their hands, else they are not stars. Guys likeThornton are about as "don't need the ball" as stars go, and it helps make them lesser stars than the truly creative guys.

The thing is, how are the Thunder built? Do they have non-stars running around who need the ball and shots? No, of course not. Nor do the Heat. Nor any good team really. That is the essence of being a roleplayer. Its where this team is so screwed up. Our stars are young, but no different from anybody else's stars. Where we screwed up is in intentionally picking a whole bunch of lesser players who need the ball and take it away from our stars. We only made that worse when our interim coach suddenly took a stupid pill a month ago and starting scrubbing the top guys' minutes and running in all kinds of garbage rotations.

 

[ParniValjak]

All stars need to have the ball in their hands, else they are not stars. Guys likeThornton are about as "don't need the ball" as stars go, and it helps make them lesser stars than the truly creative guys.

The thing is, how are the Thunder built? Do they have non-stars running around who need the ball and shots? No, of course not. Nor do the Heat. Nor any good team really. That is the essence of being a roleplayer. Its where this team is so screwed up. Our stars are young, but no different from anybody else's stars. Where we screwed up is in intentionally picking a whole bunch of lesser players who need the ball and take it away from our stars. We only made that worse when our interim coach suddenly took a stupid pill a month ago and starting scrubbing the top guys' minutes and running in all kinds of garbage rotations.

BINGO!

Thunder have Durant-Westbrook-Harden who all need the ball to be effective but the other major minutes guys on that team are classic defending role player who do NOT need the ball to be effective, you know the Perkins, Ibaka, Sefolosha, Collison. All role players that hustle, rebound, defend and in Sefolosha's case hit the open 3.

And surprise surprise there is a clear hierarchy in shot distribution and scoring on that team.

With Kings is keepies off. I get it and its my turn to score so screw you I am not passing it back. Only in the Don Nelson bizzaro world would Evans' minutes be reduced for the likes of Thomas, Jimmer, Salmons, Garcia...just plain retarded.

 

[mac]

Thomas said post-game that there was a miscommunication - 2 guys thought they were in a zone, 3 thought they were playing man to man (referring to that end of Q3 defensive sequence where Tyreke wasn't on Rush)

 

[Entity]

Guys like Thomas are only good for their size. If he was 6'1 it wouldn't be that impressive ask beno

 

[mac]

Guys like Thomas are only good for their size. If he was 6'1 it wouldn't be that impressive ask beno

I don't think that's entirely true. Thomas brings energy and heart, which is much needed from any player. I still don't think he should be a starter for us, especially if he's looking for his shot more than to set guys up, but to say that he doesn't bring any "impressive" value to our team just isn't true IMO.

 

[Entity]

Well ask yourself this what has he done that beno didn't? Was beno considered impressive around here?

 

[ParniValjak]

I don't think that's entirely true. Thomas brings energy and heart, which is much needed from any player. I still don't think he should be a starter for us, especially if he's looking for his shot more than to set guys up, but to say that he doesn't bring any "impressive" value to our team just isn't true IMO.

Garcia also brings energy and heart but he gets bagged! Here is the thing IT is "new" and shiny and fans fall in love with that go all gaga over the player even if they display the slightest bit!

Don't get me wrong, I like IT abd I think he can be a very productive player off the bench ala Bobby Jackson who was adored by the fans and rightly so...BUT IT is not a starter in this league, not for a decent team at least.

 

[mac]

Garcia also brings energy and heart but he gets bagged! Here is the thing IT is "new" and shiny and fans fall in love with that go all gaga over the player even if they display the slightest bit!

Don't get me wrong, I like IT abd I think he can be a very productive player off the bench ala Bobby Jackson who was adored by the fans and rightly so...BUT IT is not a starter in this league, not for a decent team at least.

Yup agreed. But really, how many rookies are? How many 2nd round picks are? How many 60th picks are? So it really isn't taking anything away from Thomas. There's not a Kings fan in the world who isn't happy that he's found a way to become a contributor to the team, and him doing so is kinda what's been impressive. For all we know he may be a real quality starter for us some day, but that's unlikely to be in the next year or two. I can kinda see him fitting into the Derek Fisher sort of role, because he's becoming pretty good at hitting 3 pointers and can put up some points when need be. Isn't afraid of the moment either. But Derek Fisher knows his role and knows that he should defer to the main stars 90% of the time. That whole "star" concept may be slightly hard to grasp on our young team, since the best guys still aren't playing at full all-star level, but it's going to be something that the entire team needs to understand as time goes by. Can't be having this Tyreke and Cousins on the bench while Travis Outlaw plays extended minutes nonsense.

 

[pshn80]

Best thing going for us on offense was Evans' drives. Who got the assists on those? It's a neat tool but not a team tool.

 

[Section 101]

Best thing going for us on offense was Evans' drives. Who got the assists on those? It's a neat tool but not a team tool.

I think he hit Gary Gerould on one.

 

[pshn80]

Petrie needs to do an improvement. I feel sorry for Petrie because he probably doesn't get queries about anybody but Evans and Cousins, maybe an occasional post card on Thompson and Fredette. So what the hell is there for him to do by March 15? So unless he is willing to part with Cousins or Tyreke or both he is not getting any interest. No interest, no deal, at least for a better player. Thankfully, I believe Petrie is a very talented, relentless, crafty operator in his job and may well come up with something. The worse our players play the more significant "something" can become. And I think we are almost there.

 

[jpsls]

Petrie needs to do an improvement. I feel sorry for Petrie because he probably doesn't get queries about anybody but Evans and Cousins, maybe an occasional post card on Thompson and Fredette. So what the hell is there for him to do by March 15? So unless he is willing to part with Cousins or Tyreke or both he is not getting any interest. No interest, no deal, at least for a better player. Thankfully, I believe Petrie is a very talented, relentless, crafty operator in his job and may well come up with something. The worse our players play the more significant "something" can become. And I think we are almost there.

I really hope Petrie doesn't sell low on some players who have been playing below their career averages.

 

[NoBonus]

My impression of last night's game...

 

[Kingster]

it is aggravating, isn't it? i am so annoyed with the fact that jason thompson starts every game, but only finishes with about 15 minutes in each of those games since the switch to smallball. he's a utility player with very moderate talent, and he's certainly a subpar defender at the PF position, but he's also steadied himself as a player. he's a consistent hustler, and, most importantly, he can rebound the goddamned ball...

there is something rather sick about this smallball fixation. if the maloofs hadn't already extended keith smart (on the cheap, because they're broke), i'd suggest that we were witnessing the kings' second case of self-sabotage from the head coaching position this season alone. paul westphal's read and react "offense" was a thorough and complete disaster. and smart's smallball lineups are, likewise, a thorough and complete disaster. do these guys want to ruin the kings? are they actively looking to stunt the growth of their most talented players? do they actually value their jobs?

i just don't get it. its beyond me. the solution is so ****ing simple. i'll even remove my preferences from the equation: you start any two of evans, thornton, and thomas at the guard positions. you start any of either donte greene, john salmons, or francisco garcia at the SF position. you start jason thompson at PF, and you play him anywhere from 25-30 minutes per game. and you very obviously start demarcus cousins at C, and run a significant number of plays designed specifically for him, especially against a shrimpy team like the warriors!!

As you say, JT is a mediocre talent. Who cares about JT? Like if he plays 40 minutes it's going to make a difference?

Look, there is no "simple solution" to this team. Too many pieces that don't fit. Too many pieces of inferior quality. It's hardly simple. It's up to Petrie to make the team more simple. Currently, it's a maze with no way out.

 

[kupman]

All stars need to have the ball in their hands, else they are not stars. Guys likeThornton are about as "don't need the ball" as stars go, and it helps make them lesser stars than the truly creative guys.

The thing is, how are the Thunder built? Do they have non-stars running around who need the ball and shots? No, of course not. Nor do the Heat. Nor any good team really. That is the essence of being a roleplayer. Its where this team is so screwed up. Our stars are young, but no different from anybody else's stars. Where we screwed up is in intentionally picking a whole bunch of lesser players who need the ball and take it away from our stars. We only made that worse when our interim coach suddenly took a stupid pill a month ago and starting scrubbing the top guys' minutes and running in all kinds of garbage rotations.

First, we do not have any stars on our team. We have some young talent that might one day be stars.

Second, many of the biggest stars in the NBA did not need to have the ball in their hands to be stars. They had the well rounded skills to make others around them better with or without the ball. Our young talent does not make any one around them better whether they have the ball or not.

 

[jpsls]

All stars need to have the ball in their hands, else they are not stars. Guys likeThornton are about as "don't need the ball" as stars go, and it helps make them lesser stars than the truly creative guys.

The thing is, how are the Thunder built? Do they have non-stars running around who need the ball and shots? No, of course not. Nor do the Heat. Nor any good team really. That is the essence of being a roleplayer. Its where this team is so screwed up. Our stars are young, but no different from anybody else's stars. Where we screwed up is in intentionally picking a whole bunch of lesser players who need the ball and take it away from our stars. We only made that worse when our interim coach suddenly took a stupid pill a month ago and starting scrubbing the top guys' minutes and running in all kinds of garbage rotations.

Wait..are you saying Thornton doesn't need the ball to be effective?

 

[Padrino]

As you say, JT is a mediocre talent. Who cares about JT? Like if he plays 40 minutes it's going to make a difference?

Look, there is no "simple solution" to this team. Too many pieces that don't fit. Too many pieces of inferior quality. It's hardly simple. It's up to Petrie to make the team more simple. Currently, it's a maze with no way out.

playing JT 40 minutes would make a HUGE difference. this team isn't playoff-bound as constructed. i think EVERYONE agree on that. but you can remain competitive ON YOUR HOMECOURT against REALLY BAD TEAMS if you play to your strengths. THAT much IS simple, and it means NO MORE SMALLBALL. geezus, head into the offseason feeling good about yourselves. smallball is just beating the fight outta this team. its turning them into lazy basketball players. JT hustles and rebounds. the kings need someone to play stellar post defense next to cousins, but because they don't have that player, i say start JT and give him some quality minutes so that the kings don't get OUTREBOUNDED by the effing warriors. and hey, while JT ain't bill russell, playing him significant minutes might be enough to shave a few baskets off of that shrimpy jump-shooting team's 50-point total in the paint, as well...



sometimes height alone plays a part. you can't teach 6'11", after all...

 

[kennadog]

Coach Smart made it clear in an interview on TV that he thinks Nelson is a basketball genius. That Nelson taught him not to use his players based on size or supposed position, but based on their skill set. I see a lot of Nellie "smallball" in our future and I don't like it.

 

[Kingster]

playing JT 40 minutes would make a HUGE difference. this team isn't playoff-bound as constructed. i think EVERYONE agree on that. but you can remain competitive ON YOUR HOMECOURT against REALLY BAD TEAMS if you play to your strengths. that means NO MORE SMALLBALL. geezus, head into the offseason feeling good about yourselves. smallball is just beating the fight outta team. its turning them into lazy basketball players . JT hustles and rebounds. the kings need someone to play stellar post defense next to cousins, but because they don't have that player, i say start JT and give him some quality minutes so that the kings don't get OUTREBOUNDED by the effing warriors. and hey, while JT ain't bill russell, playing him significant minutes might be enough to shave a few baskets off of that shrimpy jump-shooting team's 50-point total in the paint, as well...



sometimes height alone plays a part. you can't teach 6'11", after all...

Sometimes the guy doesn't rebound at all, and he gets torched on the defensive end. He's not a very good help defender. He's spasmodic on the offensive end. Low BB IQ. Maybe leaving him there against GS would have made a difference, but Thompson is just not good enough to make a difference as a rule. We need an upgrade at the pf position....and at small forward, and a big 2 that can shoot the ball, and a veteran point guard, and some time for development, and a more disciplined professional approach to the game, and a better and more intelligent work ethic in the offseason. That's all.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

Coach Smart made it clear in an interview on TV that he thinks Nelson is a basketball genius. That Nelson taught him not to use his players based on size or supposed position, but based on their skill set. I see a lot of Nellie "smallball" in our future and I don't like it.

When did Tyreke develop the skill set of a SF?

 

[ReinadelosReys]

This team is just constructed wrong, our three stars all need the ball in their hands to be effective, No one in our team is effective off the ball, Its the problem the Thunder have, except their stars are so good it doesn't even matter. Our "stars" are inconsitent and not nearly as good as Durant, Westbrook, Harden

And then to make matters worse, you start a ball dominant/scoring point guard.

 

[Padrino]

Sometimes the guy doesn't rebound at all, and he gets torched on the defensive end. He's not a very good help defender. He's spasmodic on the offensive end. Low BB IQ. Maybe leaving him there against GS would have made a difference, but Thompson is just not good enough to make a difference as a rule. We need an upgrade at the pf position....and at small forward, and a big 2 that can shoot the ball, and a veteran point guard, and some time for development, and a more disciplined professional approach to the game, and a better and more intelligent work ethic in the offseason. That's all.

of course the kings need an upgrade at starting PF. i don't dispute that fact. but i'm not talking about this theoretical PF. i'm talking about the kings' finding answers to some of their very obvious problems RIGHT NOW, in an attempt to salvage some measure of confidence heading into the offseason. and i don't know what games you're watching, but thompson has steadied himself a lot since his early seasons. he's rarely out of control anymore, and could hardly be called "spasmodic" at this stage of his career. ****, he shoots one of the better percentage on the team (.494). he also averages 6.1 rebounds per game in only 27 minutes. that's 12.3 rebounds per 48, in case you were wondering. those aren't elite per 48 rebounding numbers, but they're certainly nothing to sleep on. i'd take that, and his hustle, over ANY variation of a smallball lineup ANY day of the week. and i do mean ANY...

 

[Bricklayer]

Wait..are you saying Thornton doesn't need the ball to be effective?

You don't generally refer to needing shots as needing the ball. Kind of two diferent things. Thornton only needs the ball when it comes time for him to put something up. He's not ball dominant otherwise. He's closer to a Ray Allen type finishing figure than he is to a DWade type creating figure. Finishers like that are lesser stars, and less important, than the guys who create. But the benefit is you can have 1 or 2 of them out there with ball dominant guys and they can still do their thing.

 

[xrzn]

Coach Smart made it clear in an interview on TV that he thinks Nelson is a basketball genius. That Nelson taught him not to use his players based on size or supposed position, but based on their skill set. I see a lot of Nellie "smallball" in our future and I don't like it.

Link?

Not sure how much more of this I can take.

 

[Glenn]

Link?

Not sure how much more of this I can take.

I'll loan you a pitchfork. As I am retired, I have plenty of time to build torches and pitchforks. Disgusting in't it?

 

[Hadlowe]

The loss last night was bad, but I don't know how to work around it with this roster. It's tough to avoid the glaring fact that with the exception of Cousins, all of the team's talent lies in the backcourt. Neither Salmons nor Garcia are true 3's which leaves the inconsistent Donte as the sole viable option at the 3. I'm not saying I agree with Smart's lineup decisions, but I don't envy his job of playing a team with gasping black holes in the starting 3 and 4 positions. We have one and a half point guards between IT/Reke/Jimmer and 4 and 1/2 shooting guards before you get to Greene/Outlaw/Honeycutt at the 3.

The logical thing to do is to find takers for one or two of our shooting guards and replace them with a quality forward of some sort or a decent draft pick. I think that Jimmer will grow into a serviceable sidekick to Reke in the backcourt and will be more complementary in the long run than IT. But, that idea then begs the question, whither Marcus Thornton/IT? One or the other can come in as a 6th man off the bench, but not both. And, in the event that you try to keep both, you are forcing Salmons and Garcia to the 3 where they are undersized and poorly used.

I blame the small ball less on Smart than I do on Petrie and the Maloofs. I wonder if Smart had a roster where the talent is more evenly balanced between backcourt, frontcourt, and swingmen whether we might see more sensible lineups on the floor.

 

[Glenn]

The loss last night was bad, but I don't know how to work around it with this roster. It's tough to avoid the glaring fact that with the exception of Cousins, all of the team's talent lies in the backcourt. Neither Salmons nor Garcia are true 3's which leaves the inconsistent Donte as the sole viable option at the 3. I'm not saying I agree with Smart's lineup decisions, but I don't envy his job of playing a team with gasping black holes in the starting 3 and 4 positions. We have one and a half point guards between IT/Reke/Jimmer and 4 and 1/2 shooting guards before you get to Greene/Outlaw/Honeycutt at the 3.

The logical thing to do is to find takers for one or two of our shooting guards and replace them with a quality forward of some sort or a decent draft pick. I think that Jimmer will grow into a serviceable sidekick to Reke in the backcourt and will be more complementary in the long run than IT. But, that idea then begs the question, whither Marcus Thornton/IT? One or the other can come in as a 6th man off the bench, but not both. And, in the event that you try to keep both, you are forcing Salmons and Garcia to the 3 where they are undersized and poorly used.

I blame the small ball less on Smart than I do on Petrie and the Maloofs. I wonder if Smart had a roster where the talent is more evenly balanced between backcourt, frontcourt, and swingmen whether we might see more sensible lineups on the floor.

I agree with this for the most part. It is crazy to say this but we have too much talent at guard both as they are and looking into the immediate future. I say use Thornton as trade bait for a legitimate starter at SF or PF/C. This clears up how the guards are going to be used and it SHOULD stop small ball.

I think Smart has been pushed toward small ball although he didn't have to do it considering we have gained nothing with this season anyway. It is unfortunate that Smart had the mentor he had as even with a proper lineup, I don't trust he would use it properly. Only GP knows that or should know that.

 

[swisshh]

You don't generally refer to needing shots as needing the ball. Kind of two diferent things. Thornton only needs the ball when it comes time for him to put something up. He's not ball dominant otherwise. He's closer to a Ray Allen type finishing figure than he is to a DWade type creating figure. Finishers like that are lesser stars, and less important, than the guys who create. But the benefit is you can have 1 or 2 of them out there with ball dominant guys and they can still do their thing.

This is true about Thornton only needing the ball when its time to shoot, but like most of the roster, he builds of frustration if he doesn't touch the ball for a bit and proceeds to try to create his shot when it's not there or just jack up a shot the next time he touches it.

 

[pshn80]

This is true about Thornton only needing the ball when its time to shoot, but like most of the roster, he builds of frustration if he doesn't touch the ball for a bit and proceeds to try to create his shot when it's not there or just jack up a shot the next time he touches it.

I agree with you completely. I feel I can see the frustration on Thornton if he hasn't touched or shot the ball. Last night when Evans would start his drive from way out Thornton would put his head down in frustration and turn away. It's not all useful or peaches and cream.

 

[Bricklayer]

This is true about Thornton only needing the ball when its time to shoot, but like most of the roster, he builds of frustration if he doesn't touch the ball for a bit and proceeds to try to create his shot when it's not there or just jack up a shot the next time he touches it.

Yes, well there is a big ? hanging over Marcus's head about that selfish streak. Actually more than a streak. Kind of his defining trait. The fire and competitiveness separates him from being a Maggette type figure, but I have wondered before where did he get this kind of attitude from? He wasn't a monster scorer in college so far as I know. So where was he where he learned to feel disappointed if he did not shoot every time down the floor? Is this still left over from high school?