Grades v. Suns 04/11

[BMiller52]

No, it's a well known fact Brad is a bad rebounder. Shareef should be grabbing more though, he's more mobile and more athletic. The reason I say the kings need a new PF is that Brad/Reef as a front line isn't going to cut it and I assume they're going to keep Brad.

 

[DaMan]

No, it's a well known fact Brad is a bad rebounder. Shareef should be grabbing more though, he's more mobile and more athletic. The reason I say the kings need a new PF is that Brad/Reef as a front line isn't going to cut it and I assume they're going to keep Brad.

In my opinion if AD leaves we will go back to a regular offence set, where people play their true postions, not this set were the PG plays like a SG, the C like a PG and the SG like a C. So no more Brad at the top of the key doing fancy passes, which would make him useless in my opinion, since he can't do little else accpet shoot wide opinion j's and pass. which makes me think that Brad could be the odd man out. But if we keep sar, we have a guy with a nice post game and plays decent D. And in my opinion his rebounding will go up next season (if this back injury people are reporting is true) and could be able to get his career number of 8 or 9 per game.

 

[Rome]

In my opinion if AD leaves we will go back to a regular offence set, where people play their true postions, not this set were the PG plays like a SG, the C like a PG and the SG like a C. So no more Brad at the top of the key doing fancy passes, which would make him useless in my opinion, since he can't do little else accpet shoot wide opinion j's and pass. which makes me think that Brad could be the odd man out. But if we keep sar, we have a guy with a nice post game and plays decent D. And in my opinion his rebounding will go up next season (if this back injury people are reporting is true) and could be able to get his career number of 8 or 9 per game.

Nice Post, I totally agree.

 

[VF21]

In my opinion if AD leaves we will go back to a regular offence set, where people play their true postions, not this set were the PG plays like a SG, the C like a PG and the SG like a C. So no more Brad at the top of the key doing fancy passes, which would make him useless in my opinion, since he can't do little else accpet shoot wide opinion j's and pass. which makes me think that Brad could be the odd man out. But if we keep sar, we have a guy with a nice post game and plays decent D. And in my opinion his rebounding will go up next season (if this back injury people are reporting is true) and could be able to get his career number of 8 or 9 per game.

AD? I'll assume you mean Adelman, because nothing else makes much sense.

This is one of the posts that just makes me scratch my head. Nice jabs at Miller and a couple of pretty feeble attempts to boost SAR - again - but other than that you aren't really saying very much.

Having a center that can pass and shoot is an asset. Having a shooting guard that can also rebound is a plus. In fact, the very positions you talk about as being liabilities are, in actuality, some of our strengths. Want to know the weakness?

We have two. We have a tandem PF combo that isn't getting the job done and we have no real back-up for Bibby.

Getting rid of Adelman isn't going to change any of that.

 

[Rome]

AD? I'll assume you mean Adelman, because nothing else makes much sense.

This is one of the posts that just makes me scratch my head. Nice jabs at Miller and a couple of pretty feeble attempts to boost SAR - again - but other than that you aren't really saying very much.

Having a center that can pass and shoot is an asset. Having a shooting guard that can also rebound is a plus. In fact, the very positions you talk about as being liabilities are, in actuality, some of our strengths. Want to know the weakness?

We have two. We have a tandem PF combo that isn't getting the job done and we have no real back-up for Bibby.

Getting rid of Adelman isn't going to change any of that.

but wouldn't having a more traditional system help this team defensively. I mean a center's job is to stay in the paint and help block shots/rebound and a pg is suppose to pass and get their teamates involved instead of shooting quick shots. Your still going to get the same amount of assists.

I also believe a team can't rely on jumpshots. Almost everyone on this team likes to shoot jump shots which result in a lot of rebounds. Posting up will increase the field goal % because the post player can either shoot a high percentage shot him self or kick it to the wide open players.

During the 2nd half of the Suns game i saw Miller/Garcia/Martin/Bibby miss wide open shots which were falling early. If they continued their game plan that they set in the 1st half they could of easily won the game. Instead RA puts a bunch of shooters and expects them to be on fire like the 1st half and win the game.

 

[VF21]

Oh please.

How long have you watched the Kings? Were you around and paying close attention in 2001-2003?

Your interpretation of what a center and a point guard are supposed to do is just that - YOUR interpretation. It's actually a lot more fluid in the league now than it ever has been before. There are fewer and fewer PURE position players and more and more players who actually play a combination or merger of two or more slots.

As far as a team not relying on jumpshots go, that's another statement that sounds good but doesn't say anything. If you don't have jumpshots or a perimeter game, then you're not going to get anywhere inside because defenders will simply clog the paint and keep you from going inside.

If Miller, Garcia, Martin and Bibby would have made some of those shots, you'd be happy as a little clam. And if the Suns had continued to shoot abysmally from outside (you know, those low percentage jump shots) then we would have won.

The way it sounds, the only thing you like about the Kings is one player. That's NOT the Sacramento Kings.

 

[Rome]

Oh please.

How long have you watched the Kings? Were you around and paying close attention in 2001-2003?

Your interpretation of what a center and a point guard are supposed to do is just that - YOUR interpretation. It's actually a lot more fluid in the league now than it ever has been before. There are fewer and fewer PURE position players and more and more players who actually play a combination or merger of two or more slots.

As far as a team not relying on jumpshots go, that's another statement that sounds good but doesn't say anything. If you don't have jumpshots or a perimeter game, then you're not going to get anywhere inside because defenders will simply clog the paint and keep you from going inside.

If Miller, Garcia, Martin and Bibby would have made some of those shots, you'd be happy as a little clam. And if the Suns had continued to shoot abysmally from outside (you know, those low percentage jump shots) then we would have won.

The way it sounds, the only thing you like about the Kings is one player. That's NOT the Sacramento Kings.

Ok you have to remember that we had a lot of GREAT passers those years. Now we only have 1 GREAT passer and thats Brad Miller. That kind of team was rare. I don't think we can't go towards that direction anymore. Plus if the system is so great why didn't it win us a championship?? Unless we somehow got KG there's no way we could just let our Pg just chuck up shots and expect to win. These weaknesses that we see from Miller and Bibby are not new. Its just when we had an allstar like C-Webb you would'nt realize it as much.

As i said before we only have 1 Great passer. Everyone else on this team is an ok passer but their used to an regular system where the center plays defense and rebounds, pg makes plays. So i think we should just be that kind of team instead of going back to our old days and trying to become a perfect passing team. It just won't happen.

Maybe that explains the turnovers? RA may be setting plays that he used to run with all the great passers but it just won't work with this team. So the number of average passers we have outnumber Miller. Unless your going to find another Doug, Webber and Vlade this team will never be that kind of passing team again.

 

[BMiller52]

In my opinion if AD leaves we will go back to a regular offence set, where people play their true postions, not this set were the PG plays like a SG, the C like a PG and the SG like a C. So no more Brad at the top of the key doing fancy passes, which would make him useless in my opinion, since he can't do little else accpet shoot wide opinion j's and pass. which makes me think that Brad could be the odd man out. But if we keep sar, we have a guy with a nice post game and plays decent D. And in my opinion his rebounding will go up next season (if this back injury people are reporting is true) and could be able to get his career number of 8 or 9 per game.

Brad is a great player to have on this team. Ron, Bonzi, and Reef all play in the post. The guys that spend most of the time on the court are Bibby/Bonzi/Ron/Reef/Miller. That's 3 post players and 2 jump shooters, if you get rid of Brad your only reliable jump shooter is Mike. Teams are just going to pack the paint and you won't get anywhere.

Brad does more than shoot jumpers and pass. He's a good locker room guy and he can play decent defense on the perimeter. There's a reason he made the olympic team, you know the team that features all the best players like Lebron James, Kobe, etc. He's a bad rebounder but he's a better rebounder than Shareef(and you continue to say he's not, I think Bricklayer proved you wrong in another post). If he conditions himself better I'm sure he'll be able to play better post D, I don't think he was this bad at it when he came here from Indiana(I don't remember 04 all that well so I could be wrong).

Playmaker was the only one to report a back injury. Shareef's rebounds have declined over the last couple of years, and he wasn't exactly great at it to beging with. I don't believe that Shareef has a back injury, if he did I'm sure we would've heard atleast A LITTLE about it from somebody besides Shareef's biggest fan. There's stuff he could do to rebound better, he doesn't. I still like him anyways though, he's a great human being and a good teammate with some good post moves. I don't think he's what THIS team needs RIGHT NOW though.

 

[VF21]

Ok you have to remember that we had a lot of GREAT passers those years. Now we only have 1 GREAT passer and thats Brad Miller. That kind of team was rare. I don't think we can't go towards that direction anymore. Plus if the system is so great why didn't it win us a championship?? Unless we somehow got KG there's no way we could just let our Pg just chuck up shots and expect to win. These weaknesses that we see from Miller and Bibby are not new. Its just when we had an allstar like C-Webb you would'nt realize it as much.

As i said before we only have 1 Great passer. Everyone else on this team is an ok passer but their used to an regular system where the center plays defense and rebounds, pg makes plays. So i think we should just be that kind of team instead of going back to our old days and trying to become a perfect passing team. It just won't happen.

Maybe that explains the turnovers? RA may be setting plays that he used to run with all the great passers but it just won't work with this team. So the number of average passers we have outnumber Miller. Unless your going to find another Doug, Webber and Vlade this team will never be that kind of passing team again.

Your basic premise is that Mike Bibby is a weak PG. Sorry, but you and I are diametrically opposed on that assumption so anything that derives from that we'll also disagree on.

Have a nice night.

 

[Rome]

Your basic premise is that Mike Bibby is a weak PG. Sorry, but you and I are diametrically opposed on that assumption so anything that derives from that we'll also disagree on.

Have a nice night.

No i never said Mike Bibby is a weak pg. All i said is that he is playing with the same weaknesses he had even when we were a playoff team with C-Webb.

I don't think Bibby is a bad passer. I just think this system is preventing him from passing like a traditional pg. If he was playing in a more traditional system he could be easily averaging 6-7 assists per game.

But i wouldn't rate Bibby any higher then say a guy like Mike James.

 

[BMiller52]

No i never said Mike Bibby is a weak pg. All i said is that he is playing with the same weaknesses he had even when we were a playoff team with C-Webb.

I don't think Bibby is a bad passer. I just think this system is preventing him from passing like a traditional pg. If he was playing in a more traditional system he could be easily averaging 6-7 assists per game.

But i wouldn't rate Bibby any higher then say a guy like Mike James.

That's an insult to Mike Bibby and that means that you are saying Mike is a weak PG. Mike James would be lucky to be Mike Bibby's backup. Mike Bibby has better stats on a playoff(maybe) team in the west while Mike James is a stat padder in a contract year on a terrible team in the east.

 

[VF21]

Rome - Mike is a good passer. It's his "receivers" that are suspect. And his assist ratio is down because the people he passes to aren't making the baskets. That's not Mike's fault. You only get an assist if the other guy does his part, too.

Sorry, but I'm done with this. If you think Mike is no better than Mike James, we have NOTHING further to discuss because one of us isn't really serious about the discussion.

 

[Rome]

Actually Considering Mike James is playing with a Allstar PF Chris Bosh i actually like his numbers while Bibby is playing with no all star big and averaging about 3 or 4 points more then what he used to.

Mike James: 20.1 ppg, 46% FG, 44 % 3pt shooting, 5.9 assists - in 38.9 mpg
Mike Bibby: 21.0 ppg, 43% FG, 38 % 3pt shooting, 5.4 assists - in 37 mpg

 

[Rome]

Rome - Mike is a good passer. It's his "receivers" that are suspect. And his assist ratio is down because the people he passes to aren't making the baskets. That's not Mike's fault. You only get an assist if the other guy does his part, too.

Sorry, but I'm done with this. If you think Mike is no better than Mike James, we have NOTHING further to discuss because one of us isn't really serious about the discussion.

Did you even read my last post? I said Mike Bibby isn't a bad passer and that he could easily average 6-7 and maybe even 8.

 

[BMiller52]

A good big man like Bosh makes his guards better though. Mike doesn't have an all star big man to make things easier for him. Mike could average more assists than Mike James and IIRC before Mike was traded here they called him "the Kidd that can shoot". If we used another system he would probably get 2 or 3 more assists. Ron Artest said he might be the best point guard in the NBA.

 

[Rome]

A good big man like Bosh makes his guards better though. Mike doesn't have an all star big man to make things easier for him. Mike could average more assists than Mike James and IIRC before Mike was traded here they called him "the Kidd that can shoot". If we used another system he would probably get 2 or 3 more assists. Ron Artest said he might be the best point guard in the NBA.

Are you kidding me? Do you in any way take that serious?
I can't believe Artest actually said that...

First of all for bibby to even be named as one of the best pgs he has to learn how to play defense.

Second of all theirs probably 10 other PGs i would put ahead of him.

 

[Sirius]

Can you name them?

And if you're going to consider defense, don't bother listing Nash.

In my opinion we should be one of the last teams to complain about our starting point guard.

 

[beemerr23]

Bibby is only averaging 5 assists a game because our Center is the one at the top of the key making passes down low. Mike would be around the 9 assist a game mark if our Center was in the post and we had a good shooting guard. Instead, everything is a slow, half court offense/post up game and that takes away from assists. To say there are 10 other PG's in the NBA better than Bibby, I think that's very false. Mike is a VERY clutch player, excellent shooter, and a good passer. There aren't many like him in the league.

edit: Also, Mike James is an excellent PG, but is no where near Bibby

 

[Sirius]

In my opinion the only pgs better right now are Kidd, Nash, Billups, and maybe Iverson. That's it. I'd be willing to bet that if Bibby was on the Spurs and had Tim Duncan to play with he'd be making the all star team easily.

 

[BMiller52]

Bibby is only averaging 5 assists a game because our Center is the one at the top of the key making passes down low. Mike would be around the 9 assist a game mark if our Center was in the post and we had a good shooting guard. Instead, everything is a slow, half court offense/post up game and that takes away from assists. To say there are 10 other PG's in the NBA better than Bibby, I think that's very false. Mike is a VERY clutch player, excellent shooter, and a good passer. There aren't many like him in the league.

edit: Also, Mike James is an excellent PG, but is no where near Bibby

If our center was a post up guy Mike wouldn't be getting those assists and we do have a good shooting guard-two of them actually. Mike doesn't get as many assists because the team uses Brad to a lot of the post entry passes and the team uses Brad to run the overall offense most of the time. He also doesn't get many assists because most of his teammates are post up players(Brad, Kevin, and Cisco are the only rotation players I can name off the top of my head that aren't). Basically I agree with most of your post though.

I think it says a lot that Mike still gets 5 APG when he doesn't even have the ball most of the time(he does a lot of off the ball work to get himself open).

 

[kennadog]

Can you name them?

And if you're going to consider defense, don't bother listing Nash.

In my opinion we should be one of the last teams to complain about our starting point guard.

AMEN!

 

[thesanityannex]

Can you name them?

And if you're going to consider defense, don't bother listing Nash.

In my opinion we should be one of the last teams to complain about our starting point guard.

PG ratings.


http://www.82games.com/comm5.htm


edit: I tried to post the whole article, but the format is too hard to understand. And I believe this is from last year but it does give you a general idea on where Bibby stands.

 

[Wheeler03]

Mike would get more assists if he were a pass first point guard. Unfortunately that is not the case. Bibby is a shooting guard stuck in a point guards body. He is, however, very good at what he does -- score. His lack of defensive effort does prevent him from being a complete player though.

 

[kennadog]

Mike would get more assists if he were a pass first point guard. Unfortunately that is not the case. Bibby is a shooting guard stuck in a point guards body. He is, however, very good at what he does -- score. His lack of defensive effort does prevent him from being a complete player though.

The Kings style of offense doesn't use the PG as a primary playmaker. Brad gets his share of assists. Also, RA has been letting Ron have the ball in his hands a lot as a "point" forward.

I looked at the state link above. They based the passing score (assists) on dunks and layups. Might help Bibby's assist numbers if we didn't seem to miss so many point blank lay-ups and had at least one heavy-duty slam-dunker. Course, maybe other teams miss a lot of lay-ups too and I just notice it more on the Kings.

 

[Bricklayer]

Mike has nowhere near the passing instincts of a guy like Nash. That said, few do.

And his overall impact still makes him a Top 10 PG, just as he has been for years. He's firmly established as a major player in this league and now really as a legit 20pt scorer -- when he's on a roll he's as potent as any player in the NBA below the Kobe/Lebron class.

 

[beemerr23]

That PG rating page is at least 3 years old.

 

[JJ22L]

In my opinion the only pgs better right now are Kidd, Nash, Billups, and maybe Iverson. That's it. I'd be willing to bet that if Bibby was on the Spurs and had Tim Duncan to play with he'd be making the all star team easily.

I am perfectly content with having bibby, but you gotta remember bibby DID have webber...and id fair to say webber wasnt too shabby himself.

 

[thesanityannex]

That PG rating page is at least 3 years old.

I thought it was from last year. Let me update.


Not able to find it right away, but this should due.

Bibby's PER is pretty decent.

And I believe his overall performance was ranked 11th in the league.

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506SAC5.HTM