[Grades] Grades v. Suns 03/08/2013

Kings player of the game?

  • Cousins 35min 22pts (9-13FG 0-0 3pt) 14reb 7ast

    Votes: 20 62.5%
  • Evans 35min 25pts (9-12FG 4-6 3pt) 2reb 5ast

    Votes: 5 15.6%
  • Thomas 33min 27pts (8-13FG 4-5 3pt) 5reb 6ast

    Votes: 5 15.6%
  • Thornton 24min 23pts (9-13FG 4-7 3pt) 3reb 1ast

    Votes: 1 3.1%
  • Travis "Big Buckets" Outlaw

    Votes: 1 3.1%

  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .
I'll take back most of my criticism of IT. He is playing for a contract. Heck, he is so poor he cannot even afford diamond ear rings. His ear rings don't even look like decent saphires. :) His biggest challenge this year is to get an NBA contract worth in the millions. Although I still think my criticism is based fairly on what I see, it doesn't take into consideration that he is playing for his basketball life and when you are on a team going nowhere, there is no reason not to play for your own needs. You better score because guys who score get the contracts. He is on the outside looking in and needs to change that.

I have no problem with IT taking an open shot, especially if he's hot. He should take the open shot! But if your big man has it going along with Tyreke, then I nurse that until the well runs dry. I had no problem with Salmons taking the shots he took. The majority of them were wide open three's. Which to some extent, makes the misses even worse. I do have a problem when my PG brings the ball down the court and pulls up for a three before the offense is set up. Now I don't think IT did that more than a couple of times, so I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. To be honest, its hard to be critical of a player that was hitting the majority of his shots.
 
I'm still high on Cousins and Reke. Despite their regressions, I'm sure they'll still be stars once this garbage is over.
 
I have no problem with IT taking an open shot, especially if he's hot. He should take the open shot! But if your big man has it going along with Tyreke, then I nurse that until the well runs dry. I had no problem with Salmons taking the shots he took. The majority of them were wide open three's. Which to some extent, makes the misses even worse. I do have a problem when my PG brings the ball down the court and pulls up for a three before the offense is set up. Now I don't think IT did that more than a couple of times, so I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. To be honest, its hard to be critical of a player that was hitting the majority of his shots.

Yea, those shots are out of control. I think he only did that 2 or 3 times last night and he made at least 2 of them. A bad shot that goes in will always be better than a good shot that doesn't, in my book at least.
 
Yea, those shots are out of control. I think he only did that 2 or 3 times last night and he made at least 2 of them. A bad shot that goes in will always be better than a good shot that doesn't, in my book at least.

Maybe on a 1 game basis, but not when bad shots are taken every single game. Not when you're the one who's supposed to be facilitating and setting up the offense. A good shot has a higher chance of going in. Like I said in the other thread, if you're not concerned with bad shots why don't we just let Tyreke heave halfcourt shots on every possession? His % is decent and if it goes in its better than a good shot that's missed
 
Yea, those shots are out of control. I think he only did that 2 or 3 times last night and he made at least 2 of them. A bad shot that goes in will always be better than a good shot that doesn't, in my book at least.

The problem with bad shots that go in is that it encourages the player to keep taking them. Don't get me wrong, I would rather have the shots go in. I just hope that the player will eventually start taking fewer of them.
 
Maybe on a 1 game basis, but not when bad shots are taken every single game. Not when you're the one who's supposed to be facilitating and setting up the offense. A good shot has a higher chance of going in. Like I said in the other thread, if you're not concerned with bad shots why don't we just let Tyreke heave halfcourt shots on every possession? His % is decent and if it goes in its better than a good shot that's missed

I thought the use of exaggeration was frowned upon in this establishment? :rolleyes:

All good scorers take bad shots. The reason they stick around in the league is that they make those bad shots go in. Hell, just watching the Lakers a few times this year and the amount of bad shots Kobe takes is astounding. But he makes an incredible number of them and that's how he's built a HoF career. We could go look at last nights game and find terrible shots from Reke/Cousins/Thornton if we wanted too as well. Ideally, you don't want players taking bad shots, but if they go in, then all the better for us.


I absolutely agree that IT needs to stop taking those pull-up 3s with 18 seconds left on the shot-clock. But at the end of the day, those are only 2 or 3 possesions out of 60+ possessions we'll get during the game. For 90% of the game, IT is getting much better at running the PG position and he's involving everyone a lot more than he was earlier in the year. Yes, he gets in me-first mode at times, but right now, he's scoring at a great clip when he does.

I've said this many times already, but a coach who knows how to focus this team in the right direction will do wonders for us on both ends. We have 3 explosive guards and a real coach will know how to get the most production out of all 3.
 
The problem with bad shots that go in is that it encourages the player to keep taking them. Don't get me wrong, I would rather have the shots go in. I just hope that the player will eventually start taking fewer of them.

Absolutely. But, as I said, all scorers will take bad shots. Where we start to worry is if Player X is taking a great number of bad shots and not making them.
 
IT would make terrific back up PG, but hes lacking in to many areas to be a consistant good PG on a successful team. I seriously can't think of one starting PG hes better than in the L right now maybe Darren Collison/Jeremy Lin might be the only one's and they both themselves should be back ups. On top of that there is a number of back up's such as Andre Miller, Jarret Jack & Eric Bledsoe you could all say are better to when given the same playing time.

The PG position is just simply to stacked and theres to much talent for you to have a 2nd string PG starting like IT is atm, can he have really good games sure but overall can he be a slightly above average player as a starting PG I don't think so.

What IT can do is easily replaced theres a reason guards who are similar to have such as Nate Robinson, JJ Barea (both again you could argue are better) and the like of Earl Boykins have never been starting PG's. IT is a terrific guy to have on a team but hes simply playing more mins than he should be and thats because we don't have any starting level PG's on the roster.

P.S I never want to see Jimmer run the point ever again him getting Tony Douglas's mins is a complete joke.
 
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Jeez, IT is such a problem, especially in winning efforts. I think we have other problems to look at. Here's to IT being high point man more often in winning games.
 
Alright, he's 5'9" in shoes! I'll give you that one. I did get a little laugh out 5'9" and the word short in the same sentence though.
IT was measured 5'9" w/o shoes. http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/

After Brooks departure IT got back the feeling that it's his team again
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[TD].8
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Thornton also looks magically healed.
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...But having better offensive production around them didn't do good to 'Reke and Boogie, who is shooting both less and worse, which knowing his moody personality might be very much related.
 
Jeez, IT is such a problem, especially in winning efforts. I think we have other problems to look at. Here's to IT being high point man more often in winning games.
Taking stats going: in wins IT has 8.5 FGA in 24.9mpg, in losses - 10.4 in 26.1mpg. To be fair, same goes for Tyreke as well, but he also gets more FTs in wins so going inside more looks like winning bet...as if that isn't clear to everyone.:)
 
I thought the use of exaggeration was frowned upon in this establishment? :rolleyes:

All good scorers take bad shots. The reason they stick around in the league is that they make those bad shots go in. Hell, just watching the Lakers a few times this year and the amount of bad shots Kobe takes is astounding. But he makes an incredible number of them and that's how he's built a HoF career. We could go look at last nights game and find terrible shots from Reke/Cousins/Thornton if we wanted too as well. Ideally, you don't want players taking bad shots, but if they go in, then all the better for us.


I absolutely agree that IT needs to stop taking those pull-up 3s with 18 seconds left on the shot-clock. But at the end of the day, those are only 2 or 3 possesions out of 60+ possessions we'll get during the game. For 90% of the game, IT is getting much better at running the PG position and he's involving everyone a lot more than he was earlier in the year. Yes, he gets in me-first mode at times, but right now, he's scoring at a great clip when he does.

I've said this many times already, but a coach who knows how to focus this team in the right direction will do wonders for us on both ends. We have 3 explosive guards and a real coach will know how to get the most production out of all 3.

Ah, this explains a lot. You think IT is a scorer in the same capacity as Kobe. But even then, the issue is not so much an individual thing. It's not about IT. It's about the impact that taking such shots have on the offense as a whole and on the rest of the team on both ends. You say that it's only 2/3 possessions out of 60+, but it's also 2/3 out of the 12 shots you claim IT should be given. That means that at least 25% of the shots that IT takes a game are bad ones. I don't know if you've ever played ball, but I can assure you that if I worked my *** off on defense only to have my PG chuck a shot on the other end at least twice every single game, I would be effing mad.

Anyway I'm done arguing about IT. I'm more concerned with the Kings and their long term success than with the "hustling huskie"
 
An issue now is people referring to IT as a scorer. We don't need a scorer at the point next to a scorer in Reke and a scorer in Cuz, and MT at times. We don't need that role. If you want a scorer at point, then move Reke back there where he can get 20/5/5. You give IT the ball and let him loose, and he gives you 13/3.6/1.9. Give Reke the ball and let him loose, he gives you 20/5/5, probably more now actually.

Some think as long as a guy is hitting at a decent %, he can fancy himself a scorer and gun away. We have three scorers in Cuz/Reke/MT. So you're not acknowledging the role a PG should play next to them, which is to set them up as we don't need a 4th guy thinking he's a scorer, but instead saying it's fine if IT decides he's going to be a scorer because he's converting at a decent %. It's a role we don't need. If more scorers was a good thing, then why don't the top teams in the league have 5 scorers in their starting lineups? Why do they instead have role players next to their scorers? What happens if Chalmers shows up one day, starts jacking shots and hitting at a decent clip, taking bad pullup 3's, then turns to Lebron and says, hey man, I'm a scorer, and scorers take bad shots so chill. Nevermind I'm the point and am supposed to be setting you, Wade and Bosh up, I'm actually a scorer now, and since I'm hitting at 44% we're better, since more scorers is mo bettah, right?

We've gone from IT is a pass first PG who's passing is far superior to Reke's and that's why he's playing point for us, to now he's a scorer who's allowed to take bad shots and should be given time to improve running a team?

What I really don't get is some saying IT just needs time to learn the position now. Why wouldn't those people also want Reke to have that same chance given the talent disparity between the two? Why wouldn't you work with the more talented player? You can argue Reke didn't do great as a 20 and 21 yr old, is 23 now, but IT is 24. So we're intent on developing the older and less talented player? Reke shouldn't develop with the ball in his hands past age 21/22 but IT needs more time at 24?

Reke at 20 averaged 5.8 asts.
Reke at 21 averaged 5.6 asts
At 22, last year being moved off the ball then stuck in the corner, averaged 4.5 asts
This year, getting far fewer touches than IT, he's at 3.4 asts to IT's 3.6.

So we had one guy at age 20 and 21, playing the role IT is now, averaging 5.7 asts and without a more mature Cuz to look for. Then we have IT at age 24, playing the role Reke did, handling the ball most trips down the floor and free to attack, yet he's averaging 3.6 asts. For all the talk of IT being a better passer, the stats don't show it. Reke has been the better playmaker his entire career. He's about equal to IT on APG this year and there's long stretches where he doesn't touch the rock. And if the argument now is well, IT is a scorer, then at the least have IT play off Reke.

It's crazy that we had a guy who when 20/21 average 19/5.7 as a PG on a far less talented team, we decided he can't handle the ball and instead have chosen to ride the 24 yr old averaging 13/3.6, and is a defensive liability. And IT is the one would should be patient with? When Reke was 21 and putting up 18/5.6 at point on a bad foot, he just didn't cut it and we had to move him off the ball. Yet a 24 yr old putting up 13/3.6 we should be patient with?
 
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I think this game shows us that we really need a new SF. The solution: Draft. Otto. Porter. If we can't get him with our pick, we can trade up.

Kings new lineup:
Starters:
PG Reke
PF JT
SF Otto Porter
SG Thornton
C Big Cuz

Bench:
PG Toney D (my new nickname for on the mad-d he played against the Stephencurrys)
SG Jimmer?
PF Trade/FA
SF Trade/FA
C Aldrich

Benchwarmers:
James Johnson
Er, Travis Outlaw(after a large paycut)?

Traded/released
Isaiah
Patterson
Chuck
Fishy
 
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An issue now is people referring to IT as a scorer. We don't need a scorer at the point next to a scorer in Reke and a scorer in Cuz, and MT at times. We don't need that role. If you want a scorer at point, then move Reke back there where he can get 20/5/5. You give IT the ball and let him loose, and he gives you 13/3.6/1.9. Give Reke the ball and let him loose, he gives you 20/5/5, probably more now actually.

Some think as long as a guy is hitting at a decent %, he can fancy himself a scorer and gun away. We have three scorers in Cuz/Reke/MT. So you're not acknowledging the role a PG should play next to them, which is to set them up as we don't need a 4th guy thinking he's a scorer, but instead saying it's fine if IT decides he's going to be a scorer because he's converting at a decent %. It's a role we don't need. If more scorers was a good thing, then why don't the top teams in the league have 5 scorers in their starting lineups? Why do they instead have role players next to their scorers? What happens if Chalmers shows up one day, starts jacking shots and hitting at a decent clip, taking bad pullup 3's, then turns to Lebron and says, hey man, I'm a scorer, and scorers take bad shots so chill. Nevermind I'm the point and am supposed to be setting you, Wade and Bosh up, I'm actually a scorer now, and since I'm hitting at 44% we're better, since more scorers is mo bettah, right?

We've gone from IT is a pass first PG who's passing is far superior to Reke's and that's why he's playing point for us, to now he's a scorer who's allowed to take bad shots and should be given time to improve running a team?

What I really don't get is some saying IT just needs time to learn the position now. Why wouldn't those people also want Reke to have that same chance given the talent disparity between the two? Why wouldn't you work with the more talented player? You can argue Reke didn't do great as a 20 and 21 yr old, is 23 now, but IT is 24. So we're intent on developing the older and less talented player? Reke shouldn't develop with the ball in his hands past age 21/22 but IT needs more time at 24?

Reke at 20 averaged 5.8 asts.
Reke at 21 averaged 5.6 asts
At 22, last year being moved off the ball then stuck in the corner, averaged 4.5 asts
This year, getting far fewer touches than IT, he's at 3.4 asts to IT's 3.6.

So we had one guy at age 20 and 21, playing the role IT is now, averaging 5.7 asts and without a more mature Cuz to look for. Then we have IT at age 24, playing the role Reke did, handling the ball most trips down the floor and free to attack, yet he's averaging 3.6 asts. For all the talk of IT being a better passer, the stats don't show it. Reke has been the better playmaker his entire career. He's about equal to IT on APG this year and there's long stretches where he doesn't touch the rock. And if the argument now is well, IT is a scorer, then at the least have IT play off Reke.

It's crazy that we had a guy who when 20/21 average 19/5.7 as a PG on a far less talented team, we decided he can't handle the ball and instead have chosen to ride the 24 yr old averaging 13/3.6, and is a defensive liability. And IT is the one would should be patient with? When Reke was 21 and putting up 18/5.6 at point on a bad foot, he just didn't cut it and we had to move him off the ball. Yet a 24 yr old putting up 13/3.6 we should be patient with?

You would think that'd be obvious too a competent coach...but then again, Coach not-really-Smart redefines incompetence to a point where the word does not encompass North Koreans.
 
Who knew I could stir up such a stirring debate simply by pointing out that IT gets called out more than other guys on the team?

I could continue with plenty of stats to show why Rainmaker and his exaggerations (I thought we weren't allowed to use those?) are incorrect, but most of you will just dismiss them as hogwash and call me an "advanced stat nerd". I'll respond by saying how amusing you all are that you refuse to look at factual evidence and the cycle will continue. So i'll skip that lively hypothetical discussion and end with this: We all want the same thing (Kings wins!) and I don't give a rats bottom how we get to that point or who's playing for us as long as we start winning again.
 
Last thing IT related tidbit, I promise. Gilies posting the FGA in wins and losses got me intrigued where IT FGA/game ranks amongst the top 30 starting PG's. IT is tied for 23rd with Jeremy Lin in FGA/game. 23rd! His 28.5 MPG is only a few minutes off the mean starting PG MPG. Here's a list of guys who shoot less than him as starters

Nash
Rubio
Chalmers
Hinrich
Lowry
Calderon

Nash, Calderon, and Rubio make sense as those 3 guys are in the top 5 amongst PG playmakers in the NBA. Hinrich will be off the list the second Rose plays a game. Chalmers is understandable playing next to LeBron, Wade, and Bosh. Lowry was a fairly big surprise, but understandable as well, playing next to the likes of Derozan, Gay, and Bargs.

Interesting how numbers get in the way of public perception.
 
Last thing IT related tidbit, I promise. Gilies posting the FGA in wins and losses got me intrigued where IT FGA/game ranks amongst the top 30 starting PG's. IT is tied for 23rd with Jeremy Lin in FGA/game. 23rd! His 28.5 MPG is only a few minutes off the mean starting PG MPG. Here's a list of guys who shoot less than him as starters

Nash
Rubio
Chalmers
Hinrich
Lowry
Calderon

Nash, Calderon, and Rubio make sense as those 3 guys are in the top 5 amongst PG playmakers in the NBA. Hinrich will be off the list the second Rose plays a game. Chalmers is understandable playing next to LeBron, Wade, and Bosh. Lowry was a fairly big surprise, but understandable as well, playing next to the likes of Derozan, Gay, and Bargs.

Interesting how numbers get in the way of public perception.
Reke w/ IT on the court: 12.8 FGA per game
IT w/ Reke on the court: 13.2 FGA per game
Per-36

You're missing the point.

Understandable as you didn't actually attempt to disprove anything in my previous post.
 
Reke w/ IT on the court: 12.8 FGA per game
IT w/ Reke on the court: 13.2 FGA per game
Per-36

You're missing the point.

Understandable as you didn't actually attempt to disprove anything in my previous post.

I know your argument. You think IT shouldn't be shooting as much as he should and his game hurts everyone offensively. I wish P/36 would die a slow and painful death. It is a worthless statistic and completely useless in the context you're using it in this situation. IT and Reke aren't on the floor for 36 minutes every game, so why use them? Actual numbers would make your argument stronger, not theoretical.

I already explained why I'm not going to disprove your previous post. You're not going to budge on your opinion, no matter what I say. That's fine, but forgive me if I don't put the effort into a detailed argument when your only response will be something like " Doesn't matter. IT shoots too much. Doesn't matter if the league has vastly changed, and that pass-first PG's are nearly extinct. IT is a harmful to our offense and to Reke and Cousins". I like posting here, so i'll save myself isolating myself from a majority of the forum.
 
I don't know what other people think but my thinking on this matter is simple: if you replace IT with very athletic (not just quick, but strong and long as well) guard who doesn't necessarily a playmaker but is good at moving off the ball and shoots well, this team will be much better. It's not addition by subtraction, it's addition by replacing redundancy with necessity. Now if you keep Thornton as #3 scorer, this hypothetical guard have to have some ballhandling and playmaking skills, so he's likely a combo-guard...there are a couple in the draft.
P.S. I know he's a local guy, but Chuck is stuck in the game of pre-2004, where post offense was essential to team success, and having post defense specialist was a key component to team's defense. It's not anymore and you can't sacrifice mobility, length, rebounding and, yes, offensive skill for elite post defense. He should go if some PO team think he can be a part of their rotation, so they are willing to offer better contract even if it's attached to completely useless player.
P.S.2 Another thought on Brooks and other guys: Brooks was Petrie's project, Thornton is Smart's favourite, Tyreke is most talented guy, who is also a best defender by far and IT was annointed "PG of the future" during rookie campaign. Wonder what the lockerroom tension felt like...
 
This offseason is gonna be huge, with Reke, IT, and the new Owners/GM. If Reke stays, you know he wants to have a bigger role in the offense than just sit at the three and wait for the ball to come to him and just play D, Reke's been the good soldier taking a reduced role and not complaining about even though he's been asked to move to three different positions and sacrifice scoring while adding more aspects to his game. If IT gets moved to a Super 6 role for a new guard, I don't think IT would like it, because he used to being the man, in college and ever since he was given the starting PG position when Evans was hurt last year. He's gotten to be the "Hustlin' Husky" and a "Pizza Guy", he wants to be the guy that turns the team around. We want Reke to be more aggressive and be that player he was his rookie year, but be more efficient, but the only way that can happen is if he touches the ball more. We want IT to score, but we want him to set up his teammates more often.

Our starting 5 is messed up cause we have 5 guys that all try to score. Since smart has given everybody the green light, nobody wants to be that second banana, everybody wants to be the main cog. This is where roles being defined and some roster balancing would really help and benefit the team.
 
Last thing IT related tidbit, I promise. Gilies posting the FGA in wins and losses got me intrigued where IT FGA/game ranks amongst the top 30 starting PG's. IT is tied for 23rd with Jeremy Lin in FGA/game. 23rd! His 28.5 MPG is only a few minutes off the mean starting PG MPG. Here's a list of guys who shoot less than him as starters

Nash
Rubio
Chalmers
Hinrich
Lowry
Calderon

Nash, Calderon, and Rubio make sense as those 3 guys are in the top 5 amongst PG playmakers in the NBA. Hinrich will be off the list the second Rose plays a game. Chalmers is understandable playing next to LeBron, Wade, and Bosh. Lowry was a fairly big surprise, but understandable as well, playing next to the likes of Derozan, Gay, and Bargs.

Interesting how numbers get in the way of public perception.

Of course its low. He didn't play alot during the beginning of the season. What's his attempts per game once he was inserted into the starting lineup? And what is his usage rate for the season and since he's been starting?
 
The ever continuing debate brings a smile to my face and a shake to my head. A tempest in a teapot. With all due respect it's curious that with all the problems our team has as a .333 winning team this issue deserves this much attention.
 
The ever continuing debate brings a smile to my face and a shake to my head. A tempest in a teapot. With all due respect it's curious that with all the problems our team has as a .333 winning team this issue deserves this much attention.

I'm guessing cause coaching will probably fix most of these problems and a new GM will balance out the roster, but with the whole IT/Reke arugment, I guess some people feel he didn't get a fair shake at PG even though he was putting up better stats with lesser talent and year by year his touches has decreased and then people will say that he's scoring less, but with less touches, that's more than likely to happen. Even with less touches he's still setting his teammates up at the same rate IT is. I don't know.

My only problem is that he's not getting more shots even though he's hitting at a better rate and his shot selection has improved. To me, I don't label Reke a PG or a SG and IT a PG or SG, but a Starting Guard. He should be able to at least split time with IT at both PG and SG when they're both on the court at the same time.
 
Of course its low. He didn't play alot during the beginning of the season. What's his attempts per game once he was inserted into the starting lineup? And what is his usage rate for the season and since he's been starting?

I used his FGA/game in his 44 starts this year, not his full year numbers. He's at 10.6 FGA/game in 28.5 MPG. That total is 23rd in the NBA amongst the top 30 starting PG's.
 
I'm just thankful that Tyreke is playing better and shooting sume better. That's good news fort the team. In the meantime, thank heavens that IT can occasionally jack 'em up and cover the scoring void. I don't think it's an either/or situation, it's a developing one and will continue to evolve just as Evans continues to evolve.
 
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