[Grades] Grades v. Spurs 2/24/16

#31
Can this serve as Marco's grade, since it is the same thing every night?

There are 256 NBA players with better 3pt shooting % than Karl's favorite "shooting guard" Marco Belinelli.

368 players shoot better overall.

There have been only 459 NBA players this year.

So 80% of all NBA players shoot better overall than Marco. Over half shoot better from 3.

To put that into perspective.

368 NBA players shoot better than Marco. Spread those over 30 NBA teams & you would have 12 players on each team who shoot better than Marco.

If you took all the players shooting better than Marco from 3 and spread them between 30 teams, Marco would be 9th best on one of the teams.

Grade: Z minus
 
#32
I thought the Kings played well through 3 quarters considering Cousins was useless on offense for two of them.

The same problem as always ended up rearing it's ugly head. Teams killed them with screens and the Kings still can't run a proper screen to save their lives. Patty Mills got shot after shot just simply running off of simple screens. Watch that and then watch the Kings go down the floor with Collison either going way around his screen or going the wrong way...thus leaving the screen absolutely useless.

By the way, I know they've still given up a ton of points in the three games after the all star break but I think the defense looks much improved now. With the switching and guarding of the mid range for no reason...there was absolutely no hope they could ever become even an average defensive team. No matter how much they mastered that crappy philosophy. Now they at least have a direction they can go in. I don't expect massive improvements but at least the defensive scheme doesn't seem so hopeless anymore.
I agree, defense looks much better. For the most part aside from when we turned the ball over we contested every shot and didn't give up wide open looks. The Spurs are still the Spurs so naturally they will get some but I thought it was more due to good offense than poor defense. Rondo and Rudy still seem to be the culprits on a lot of breakdowns, as well as Cousins taking 15 seconds just to get down the court on defense at times resulting on way too many 4 on 5 situations. One thing I saw from the Spurs was that they never let a mismatch on defense happen for long. When a small ended up guarding a big they would quickly switch to prevent us from capitalizing on it. Once teams get a mismatch switch on us on the other hand the help always comes way too slow if it comes at all.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#35
Can this serve as Marco's grade, since it is the same thing every night?

There are 256 NBA players with better 3pt shooting % than Karl's favorite "shooting guard" Marco Belinelli.

368 players shoot better overall.

There have been only 459 NBA players this year.

So 80% of all NBA players shoot better overall than Marco. Over half shoot better from 3.

To put that into perspective.

368 NBA players shoot better than Marco. Spread those over 30 NBA teams & you would have 12 players on each team who shoot better than Marco.

If you took all the players shooting better than Marco from 3 and spread them between 30 teams, Marco would be 9th best on one of the teams.

Grade: Z minus
It's been shocking to me how bad Belinelli has been this season. He's shooting a career worst 3P% and yet taking more threes than at any time of his career.

I don't fault Vlade for the signing. I thought it was a solid move to grab a bench shooter. And in the preseason he looked good. Since then it's just been a train wreck to the point that I hate even seeing him entering games.

Imagine if this Kings team just had a Kent Bazemore/Anthony Morrow rotation at SG. I honestly think they'd be the 6th or 7th seed team right now.
 
#36
Imagine if this Kings team just had a Kent Bazemore/Anthony Morrow rotation at SG. I honestly think they'd be the 6th or 7th seed team right now.
Morrow can't crack 15mpg on the Thunder team behind Roberson.....I'm thinking that his defense is terrible for him not to be starting over someone like Roberson. I guess he's Belinelli with better shooting?

I think Bazemore would make this team much better, but I don't think we'd be 8th seed.

Rondo's defense has been absolutely horrendous this year. I don't think Bazemore alone would be enough to make it up for the back-court. If we took Ben's defensive ability and gave it to Rondo, I'd say we're 6th seed.

The Kings should try to move Belinelli this off-season. He has provided almost nothing for this team except shot jacking. If we wanted that, we can just sign Marcus Thornton for vet min, or force Minnesota to give up a 2nd rounder to off-load Martin.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#37
Morrow can't crack 15mpg on the Thunder team behind Roberson.....I'm thinking that his defense is terrible for him not to be starting over someone like Roberson. I guess he's Belinelli with better shooting?

I think Bazemore would make this team much better, but I don't think we'd be 8th seed.

Rondo's defense has been absolutely horrendous this year. I don't think Bazemore alone would be enough to make it up for the back-court. If we took Ben's defensive ability and gave it to Rondo, I'd say we're 6th seed.

The Kings should try to move Belinelli this off-season. He has provided almost nothing for this team except shot jacking. If we wanted that, we can just sign Marcus Thornton for vet min, or force Minnesota to give up a 2nd rounder to off-load Martin.
Morrow is what he is, a great pure shooter, a mediocre to subpar defender and a guy who plays within himself and knows his role. He's not a ballhandler or a playmaker as Marco has shown the ability to be at times but he's a great catch-and-shoot option.

The Kings don't need a pair of all-stars platooning at the SG spot. They just need two guys who can hit open shots and play some defense.

I don't think people realize exactly how awful the Kings SGs have been. Marco has absolutely been one of the worst players in the NBA this season. There's a decent argument to be made that Nik Stauskas is having a better season. And considering the difference in age and salary I'd probably rather have Sauce back, something I couldn't imagine saying 8 months ago.

And while I always root for Ben to put things together it is infuriating to see him do the things he did last night - blow easy layup opportunities, be unable to change directions and avoid a charge on a fast break, losing the ball when there's almost no pressure on him, clank wide open looks and generally just showing a lack of feel for the game.

I chose Bazemore and Morrow because they are essentially what we hoped Ben/Marco would be: the athletic defender who knocks down open looks and the backup that is a pure shooter.

The Kings need to make a major upgrade to the 2 spot this offseason, and likely will help do that by shipping out McLemore and Belinelli.
 
#38
Here's my optimistic conspiracy spin on Marco's abysmal performance this year:

He knows that Karl is obsessively over-playing him (due to vet preference) so he is stinking up the court just to spite Karl and force him to admit he's wrong in playing vets so much over better, but younger players.

Yeah, right. ;)
 
#39
Willie is up to 61% FGs and 62% TS% and 16 PER! When Boogie was a rookie he had a weak-ass 48.4 TS% and 14.6 PER. So yes Willie will be a better player than Boogie....its science. :) Willie is averaging only 4.5 FGAs per game. This number needs to double the rest of the season. I would like to see him get 8-10 FGAs per game. Feed the beast.

Going forward there is a lot of potential running plays with Willie in the post. Not only has he been showing a nice touch he can spin move with high release point with either hand. I said back in November within 1-2 years Willie will be a better low post player than Boogie and not only do I stand by the comment, I underrated how good Willie can be because he have some natural instincts to score the ball...without forcing, just using his agility and length to take what is there.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#40
Willie is up to 61% FGs and 62% TS% and 16 PER! When Boogie was a rookie he had a weak-ass 48.4 TS% and 14.6 PER. So yes Willie will be a better player than Boogie....its science. :) Willie is averaging only 4.5 FGAs per game. This number needs to double the rest of the season. I would like to see him get 8-10 FGAs per game. Feed the beast.

Going forward there is a lot of potential running plays with Willie in the post. Not only has he been showing a nice touch he can spin move with high release point with either hand. I said back in November within 1-2 years Willie will be a better low post player than Boogie and not only do I stand by the comment, I underrated how good Willie can be because he have some natural instincts to score the ball...without forcing, just using his agility and length to take what is there.
I agree on this...Trill needs to get more touches, period. The team isn't making the playoffs, at the very least allow him to develop his offensive game in real game time action rather than in an empty gym in the off season.
 
#41
It's been shocking to me how bad Belinelli has been this season. He's shooting a career worst 3P% and yet taking more threes than at any time of his career.

I don't fault Vlade for the signing. I thought it was a solid move to grab a bench shooter. And in the preseason he looked good. Since then it's just been a train wreck to the point that I hate even seeing him entering games.

Imagine if this Kings team just had a Kent Bazemore/Anthony Morrow rotation at SG. I honestly think they'd be the 6th or 7th seed team right now.
I was an hour early at last night's game. To Marco's credit he was out there shooting his jump shots for an unusually long time. What surprised me was his "make" ratio - whatever it was it was surprising poor. Don't know what his problem is. For part of that time Collison was out there with him and hitting the great majority.

A couple of observations about our game defense - first, quite often we were on our man well causing the Spurs to pass again and in many cases they would keep moving and passing until someone was open for shot, our guys did good but got outlasted by a good offense. Second, while Willie made his usual spectacular defensive stops he also had a handful of times when he was off his man with his arm raised allowing an open shot over him. He has a way to go in his learning curve.
 
#42
I would be careful about being too harsh in the criticism of the Kings playing the Spurs. Any Pop coached team can play defense. Aldridge was unreal in the first half against DMC. He owned him. Cousins shot chart at the half showed 10 green xs from close range. Basketball is a mental game. The Spurs did a masterful job making the Kings miss plenty of lay-ups and short range jumpers because of really good weak side help defense. As a consequnce, we got to see Cousins at his worst, which is frustrated, complaining and even giving up on plays. He is becoming a good winner, but a crummy loser.

On the plus side, the Kings played with an intensity level last night at least for the first three quarters that was the highest I can remember in a long time. It was like a playoff game. They kind of ran out of gas in the third after an intense game the night before at 5,200 feet. Do not dismiss the effects of altitude. I once played in a city league in Laramie, Wy at 7,200 feet against college kids.

Willie is amazing. Nobody really knows how good he can be. He has a left hand and runs like a gazelle. I look forward to his next jump shot. Acy is really good at backdoors and hanging around the hoop. I loved his jump shot last night. I would get both of these guys some more 8-10 foot jumpers. Their defensive intensity is there.

Collison has become the de facto SG. He is kind of average sized for the spot, but has turned into a great scorer, while putting up only a few assists, but Rondo makes up the difference. Ben to me is still an average player with above average athleticism, and Marco is suffering from "the live by the jump blues." That is his main talent, and lately he can't find the range.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#44
It's been shocking to me how bad Belinelli has been this season. He's shooting a career worst 3P% and yet taking more threes than at any time of his career.

I don't fault Vlade for the signing. I thought it was a solid move to grab a bench shooter. And in the preseason he looked good. Since then it's just been a train wreck to the point that I hate even seeing him entering games.

Imagine if this Kings team just had a Kent Bazemore/Anthony Morrow rotation at SG. I honestly think they'd be the 6th or 7th seed team right now.
You have to fault Vlade he SIGNED him it's not like Marco is injured and there is an excuse the reality is Vlade blew a lot of cap space on guys that have not helped us.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#45
Here's my optimistic conspiracy spin on Marco's abysmal performance this year:

He knows that Karl is obsessively over-playing him (due to vet preference) so he is stinking up the court just to spite Karl and force him to admit he's wrong in playing vets so much over better, but younger players.

Yeah, right. ;)
Makes perfect sense to me. :p
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#46
You have to fault Vlade he SIGNED him it's not like Marco is injured and there is an excuse the reality is Vlade blew a lot of cap space on guys that have not helped us.
If there are any KF.com members that said at the time of the signing, "this is terrible, Marco Belinelli will have an awful year shooting the ball" then I'll happily let them fault Vlade.

He was a career 39.2% 3 point shooter coming to a team that already struggled with outside shooting and who were signing Rajon Rondo. He also offered ball handling and some playmaking - two other things the Kings were in short supply of. And he came from a championship winning culture in the Spurs.

We all knew he was poor defensively, but if anyone actually predicted that he'd be this bad on offense then that person can criticize Vlade for signing him. Me? I thought it was a solid move to improve the bench.

To say with the gift of hindsight that Vlade should have known he'd be awful when none of us (that I remember anyway) were saying as much is applying a ridiculous standard.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#47
Signing Marco made a lot of sense at the time. You could look at his track record and say he'd be a reliable source of three point shooting if nothing else. His complete collapse this season is a bit mystifying. Even in January when he was at about 33% on the season and his "shoot my way out of this slump" act was really starting to grate on me, I still expected him to pull out of it eventually. There are 8 seasons of data which point that direction. The bigger mystery is why he continues to lead the team in 3pt attempts even though James Anderson is the only player on the roster at this point who's been worse. We have 8 guys shooting 35% or better and we're still wasting possessions on Marco's experiment in performance art. Enough is enough. It's got to be at least partially mental at this point. Let him work it out in the off-season.
 
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funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#48
Signing Marco made a lot of sense at the time. You could look at his track record and say he'd be a reliable source of three point shooting if nothing else. His complete collapse this season is a bit mystifying. Even in January when he was at about 33% on the season and his "shoot my way out of this slump" act was really starting to grate on me, I still expected him to pull out of it eventually. There are 8 seasons of data which point that direction. The bigger mystery is why he continues to lead the team in 3pt attempts even though James Anderson is the only player on the roster at this point who's been worse. We have 8 guys shooting 35% of better and we're still wasting possessions on Marco's experiment in performance art. Enough is enough. It's got to be at least partially mental at this point. Let him work it out in the off-season.
Being that we are the buy high, sell low Kings I'm guessing Marco will be sent packing for a bag of chips and half a sandwich this offseason and immediately get back to being a reliable bench shooter for a playoff team. To quote the great Billy Pilgrim, "So it goes"
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#49
If there are any KF.com members that said at the time of the signing, "this is terrible, Marco Belinelli will have an awful year shooting the ball" then I'll happily let them fault Vlade.

He was a career 39.2% 3 point shooter coming to a team that already struggled with outside shooting and who were signing Rajon Rondo. He also offered ball handling and some playmaking - two other things the Kings were in short supply of. And he came from a championship winning culture in the Spurs.

We all knew he was poor defensively, but if anyone actually predicted that he'd be this bad on offense then that person can criticize Vlade for signing him. Me? I thought it was a solid move to improve the bench.

hen none of us (that I remember anyway) were saying as much is applying a ridiculous standard.
I don't think anyone complained. I wonder what's wrong with Marco. Cataracts? Does a seasoned vet lose his confidence for a whole season>? I doubt it. It's a huge puzzle. Do we let him go at the end of the season assuming that he has lost all his skills? Wow.

Maybe he needs more teeth pulled.
 
#50
Signing Marco made a lot of sense at the time. You could look at his track record and say he'd be a reliable source of three point shooting if nothing else. His complete collapse this season is a bit mystifying. Even in January when he was at about 33% on the season and his "shoot my way out of this slump" act was really starting to grate on me, I still expected him to pull out of it eventually. There are 8 seasons of data which point that direction. The bigger mystery is why he continues to lead the team in 3pt attempts even though James Anderson is the only player on the roster at this point who's been worse. We have 8 guys shooting 35% of better and we're still wasting possessions on Marco's experiment in performance art. Enough is enough. It's got to be at least partially mental at this point. Let him work it out in the off-season.
Another point is that when Vlade had preliminary discussions with Rondo about signing Rondo said paraphrasing "get me another shooter". That shooter was Marco.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#51
Another point is that when Vlade had preliminary discussions with Rondo about signing Rondo said paraphrasing "get me another shooter". That shooter was Marco.
That's really what it comes down to. Rondo wanted a shooter and Marco was on the market, made sense to go get him at the time. I'm sure if the Kings are looking to unload Marco, a team will gladly take him off of our hands and he will return to form with the new team.
 
#52
That's really what it comes down to. Rondo wanted a shooter and Marco was on the market, made sense to go get him at the time. I'm sure if the Kings are looking to unload Marco, a team will gladly take him off of our hands and he will return to form with the new team.
Not sure of Vlade's interest in Marco independent of incentive or "requirement" to sign Rondo, but I am certain one of his objectives last summer was to upgrade shooting.

I thought a mini-reversal of performance was possible with Marco inserted into the starting line-up, but Karl is most non-inventive coach since Ty Corbin (RIP...or wait is he still alive as a "consultant"? LOL)

The situation is depressing. Its Ramon Session 2.0. But worse. Though others on this site who know who they are contend "Marco is a championship asset being misused" o_O and only if we used him correctly it would be glory days?!?

Sorry but I fail to see how missing a wide open look down 76-70 to end the 3rd that could have given us momentum and hope going into 4th v. Spurs equates into Marco being misused. Brick layer gonna brick. (Not our Bricklayer but the bearded pasta loving one).

Nevertheless I am same guy who said Jason Thompson was garbage for three years, against protestations of many fans, currently on waivers after being dumped by three teams in under 9 months (Kings, 76ers, Warriors), so being opposed to conventional "wisdom" only serves as reinforcement I might be on the right track.

Nevertheless again beat the Clips....c'mon Marco pretend you are in silver and black and Pop is your coach and make a friggin' shot!!!
 
#53
It's been shocking to me how bad Belinelli has been this season. He's shooting a career worst 3P% and yet taking more threes than at any time of his career.

I don't fault Vlade for the signing. I thought it was a solid move to grab a bench shooter. And in the preseason he looked good. Since then it's just been a train wreck to the point that I hate even seeing him entering games.

Imagine if this Kings team just had a Kent Bazemore/Anthony Morrow rotation at SG. I honestly think they'd be the 6th or 7th seed team right now.
I mean, we can't really evaluate like that, otherwise no one would ever be at fault for bad teams. People give credit to Vlade all the time for the WCS pick because he's looked extremely solid this season. And he should get credit, it was a good pick and it's worked out. Rondo has been far better than basically everyone expected; again, feather in Vlade's cap.

Same goes for the mistakes though. Marco may have been a fine signing at the time, but he could not have worked out worse than he has. And Marco isn't a rookie who you should wait a few years before judging how good of a decision it was... he was expected to make contributions immediately.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#54
I mean, we can't really evaluate like that, otherwise no one would ever be at fault for bad teams. People give credit to Vlade all the time for the WCS pick because he's looked extremely solid this season. And he should get credit, it was a good pick and it's worked out. Rondo has been far better than basically everyone expected; again, feather in Vlade's cap.

Same goes for the mistakes though. Marco may have been a fine signing at the time, but he could not have worked out worse than he has. And Marco isn't a rookie who you should wait a few years before judging how good of a decision it was... he was expected to make contributions immediately.

Which is exactly why you can't really fault Vlade for the signing. People may have liked the signing, people may have not, but I defy you to find one person anywhere, one fan, media member, coach, GM, ANYBODY, who would have said "he signed Belinelli??? Doesn't the fool know he's due for a sub-30% 3pt shooting season??"

Years ago when Geoff traded for Nik Anderson I was pissed. I had watched Anderson play for years and knew that he was done. The fat, sluggish low percentage three point chucker we got was exactly who I feared we'd get. That was on Petrie.

NOBODY, literally NOBODY feared that Belinelli suddenly was going to forget how to shoot. There were absolutely no signs of it. Picking up Kyle Korver this summer would be riskier than signing Belinelli was. Korver at least has age on him.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#56
Not sure of Vlade's interest in Marco independent of incentive or "requirement" to sign Rondo, but I am certain one of his objectives last summer was to upgrade shooting.

I thought a mini-reversal of performance was possible with Marco inserted into the starting line-up, but Karl is most non-inventive coach since Ty Corbin (RIP...or wait is he still alive as a "consultant"? LOL)

The situation is depressing. Its Ramon Session 2.0. But worse. Though others on this site who know who they are contend "Marco is a championship asset being misused" o_O and only if we used him correctly it would be glory days?!?

Sorry but I fail to see how missing a wide open look down 76-70 to end the 3rd that could have given us momentum and hope going into 4th v. Spurs equates into Marco being misused. Brick layer gonna brick. (Not our Bricklayer but the bearded pasta loving one).

Nevertheless I am same guy who said Jason Thompson was garbage for three years, against protestations of many fans, currently on waivers after being dumped by three teams in under 9 months (Kings, 76ers, Warriors), so being opposed to conventional "wisdom" only serves as reinforcement I might be on the right track.

Nevertheless again beat the Clips....c'mon Marco pretend you are in silver and black and Pop is your coach and make a friggin' shot!!!
One question, did Marco come off those curl screens so frequently in San Antonio?
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#57
One question, did Marco come off those curl screens so frequently in San Antonio?
I seriously doubt it. Here's a video breakdown of San Antonio's offense in the 2013/2014 season. That's the season Marco averaged 43% from three point range.


There's a lot of pick and roll action on the ball with shooters spacing the floor and sliding laterally into open space. This is typical of what I expect from the Spurs. Most of the screening action is used to free up the ballhandler while the shooters stand with their feet set, ready to catch and shoot. There actually are plays run for Marco here to get him the ball off a screen near the middle of the floor at the top of the key but most of those result in mid-range jumpers or quick passes to the screener.

This is really where the problems begin for us this year. Picking up Belinelli isn't a bad idea in theory if you plan to use him primarily as a catch and shoot threat. And with a skilled big and a crafty PG you would think we would excel at exactly the type of offense that San Antonio is running. Only we're not doing that at all. We're running Collison and Rondo together or we're having Belinelli handle the ball and create looks. And then there's Ben, who's always been best as a catch and shoot guy dating back to Kansas, who is basically just ignored most of the time. As much as I bag on Marco for his shot-selection, I do feel sorry for him at the same time. The coach is supposed to reign him in if he's freelancing. This isn't just another example of me pointing the finger at George Karl. Yes Marco is a veteran and should know better so he shares in the blame. But if we're asking Marco to create shots off the dribble -- and he's been doing it all year so I assume that we are -- it's not really fair to place all of the blame on him for the lackluster results.
 
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K

KingMilz

Guest
#58
If there are any KF.com members that said at the time of the signing, "this is terrible, Marco Belinelli will have an awful year shooting the ball" then I'll happily let them fault Vlade.

He was a career 39.2% 3 point shooter coming to a team that already struggled with outside shooting and who were signing Rajon Rondo. He also offered ball handling and some playmaking - two other things the Kings were in short supply of. And he came from a championship winning culture in the Spurs.

We all knew he was poor defensively, but if anyone actually predicted that he'd be this bad on offense then that person can criticize Vlade for signing him. Me? I thought it was a solid move to improve the bench.

To say with the gift of hindsight that Vlade should have known he'd be awful when none of us (that I remember anyway) were saying as much is applying a ridiculous standard.
The end result is he's a terrible signing regardless of if it was at the time a good signing or not. Vlade made numerous terrible offseason aquasitions. Has nothing to do with hindsight and everything to do with results.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#59
I seriously doubt it. Here's a video breakdown of San Antonio's offense in the 2013/2014 season. That's the season Marco averaged 43% from three point range.


There's a lot of pick and roll action on the ball with shooters spacing the floor and sliding laterally into open space. This is typical of what I expect from the Spurs. There's very little down-screen action used to free up shooters except on late game in-bounds plays. Most of the screening action is used to free up the ballhandler while the shooters stand with their feet set, ready to catch and shoot.

This is really where the problems begin for us this year. Picking up Belinelli isn't a bad idea in theory if you plan to use him primarily as a catch and shoot threat. And with a skilled big and a crafty PG you would think we would excel at exactly the type of offense that San Antonio is running. Only we're not doing that at all. We're running Collison and Rondo together or we're having Belinelli handle the ball and create looks. And then there's Ben, who's always been best as a catch and shoot guy dating back to Kansas, who is basically just ignored most of the time. As much as I bag on Marco for his shot-selection, I do feel sorry for him at the same time. The coach is supposed to reign him in if he's freelancing. This isn't just another example of me pointing the finger at George Karl. Yes Marco is a veteran and should know better. But if we're asking Marco to create shots off the dribble -- and he's been doing it all year so I assume that we are -- it's not really fair to place all of the blame on him for the lackluster results.
that's exactly my point here...lots of players that come here fail or they get better when they leave, hmmm....I wonder why. It happens time and time again, I thought it was only young players but I guess you can throw veterans in there too now.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#60
The end result is he's a terrible signing regardless of if it was at the time a good signing or not. Vlade made numerous terrible offseason aquasitions. Has nothing to do with hindsight and everything to do with results.
I'm willing to hold off on the Vlade hate until I see two things, 1) if he shall remain GM, 2) if he remains GM, give him a chance to make things right in the off season