Grades v. Sonics 05/03

[Vlad]

Also, the Kings offense was far from stagnant tonight. I contend that it was their best offensive game of the playoffs.

 

[swisshh]

I would have.

Or, leave Brad in at PF and put Tag in alongside him.
~~

I'm just bothered that we never saw the Skinner/Miller frontline. Each player makes up for the weaknesses of the other. We might move one in the offseason and never know if they could be effective together.

 

[Venom]

I am not a dude. You are jumping all over me about motivation and all I said was it was a part of his job as a coach. I guess I missed your best seller about Coaching. Is it still in print>?

Phil Jackson for one...

No, you said that Rick needs to motivate Brad to rebound better. Brad, who had a fractured leg and was playing 41 minutes, as well as being the co-initiator of the offense. I found that to be a ridiculous statement, as well as a common misconception of NBA coaches, and called you on it. You have not been able to back up your statements effectively. That's it, I'm not picking on anybody.

Phil Jackson is not a motivator. Who is he commonly given credit for "motivating"? MJ and Kobe, only two of the most driven players of the past 30 years. Too bad he never coached the Celtics so he could have "motivated" Bird. Phil is an ego manager, and very good at it. I think that Rick is actually better. None of his teams have broken up discordantly. Some players grumble, but they come back to the fold. Can't say that about Phil.

 

[SacTownKid]

Some people seem to think that two big, slowfooted guys are always better than one. I don't think so. Rick went with his best players and we lost. I don't think Tag would have made much of a difference.

I beg to differ.

 

[kennadog]

Do I have a target on my back? I NEVER said that he didn't.. if you read all the posts you would see how motivation got thrown in the thread..sheesh

I was responding to post #33. Everyone doesn't have to be so ready to attack a post without reading all of them.. And I have never not one time called for him to be fired. But I do think it is allowed to give your opinion if you think he blew one.

I did read all of them and just re-read them. I believe you said that Adleman was being paid a tidy sum to motivate players and some coaches use psychologists, former players, etc. Maybe I misinterpreted you. Venom disagreed that its up to coaches to motivate pro-players and so did I. Am I not allowed to disagree?

 

[Zyphen]

Which is all flippant stuff said by all coaches. "Don't let them embarrass us on our home floor". Of course Rick throws that kind of stuff out. But if grown men really need to hear it, that's disappointing. You ever wonder why college coaches fail miserably in the NBA? You can't scream at guys in this league and demean them. Most make more money than the coach, and they all have a bigger ego than the coach.

They're not one-liners. They're speeches and one-liners and extras (fines in the case of Phil) that are consistently given out in a thoughful manner to inspire players. What is it about grown men that makes them ineligible for motivation? Right now in the NBA forum, there's Juan Dixon who threw up 35 points cause he said himself, that he went onto a message board and got fired up from the posts. He's a grown man.

Phil Jackson based an entire career off motivational tools. It was in part, what his book was about.

Screaming at and demeaning grown men isn't motivation. If you think they're one and the same, then I can understand why you don't think grown men need to hear that ****. No, they need to hear they're better than the other guy or better than what they've done so far or stuff like that. Doesn't matter if you or I don't believe in it, don't have that kind of stuff work on us, or whatever. It works for them. Bottom line. In fact, motivational speeches get to a lot of people. I don't really think less of them because of that. Not everyone is great at internalizing everything.

 

[ImaKingsFan]

No, you said that Rick needs to motivate Brad to rebound better. Brad, who had a fractured leg and was playing 41 minutes, as well as being the co-initiator of the offense. I found that to be a ridiculous statement, as well as a common misconception of NBA coaches, and called you on it. You have not been able to back up your statements effectively. That's it, I'm not picking on anybody.

Phil Jackson is not a motivator. Who is he commonly given credit for "motivating"? MJ and Kobe, only two of the most driven players of the past 30 years. Too bad he never coached the Celtics so he could have "motivated" Bird. Phil is an ego manager, and very good at it. I think that Rick is actually better. None of his teams have broken up discordantly. Some players grumble, but they come back to the fold. Can't say that about Phil.

I NEVER said any such thing!! Do not put words in my mouth. I was responding to post #33 .. and all I pointed out that part of RA's job was to
motivate.. I didn't say who, I didn't say when, or where..

You are trying to make an issue of whether JAckson is a motivator or not. You asked for an example of a coach who uses motivation techniques. I gave you one, I didnt grade him on his results. And that is your opinion as to how effective I have backed up what I said. I guess you could judge better if you read my posts accurately and didn't accuse me of posting something that I NEVER posted.

 

[Venom]

They're not one-liners. They're speeches and one-liners and extras (fines in the case of Phil) that are consistently given out in a thoughful manner to inspire players. What is it about grown men that makes them ineligible for motivation? Right now in the NBA forum, there's Juan Dixon who threw up 35 points cause he said himself, that he went onto a message board and got fired up from the posts. He's a grown man.

Phil Jackson based an entire career off motivational tools. It was in part, what his book was about.

Screaming at and demeaning grown men isn't motivation. If you think they're one in the same, then I can understand why you don't think grown men need to hear that ****. No, they need to hear they're better than the other guy or better than what they've done so far or stuff like that. Doesn't matter if you or I don't believe in it, don't have that kind of stuff work on us, or whatever. It works for them. Bottom line. In fact, motivational speeches get to a lot of people. I don't really think less of them because of that. Not everyone is great at internalizing everything.

OK, fair enough. I think we disagree on what motivation is. I think what I consider to be coaching (telling a guy to take open shots, box out better), other folks consider to be motivation. Alright, I can understand that. And I think Rick does alot of that. He's up the whole game, not smoking and joking on the bench like ol' Phil Jackson.

 

[bozzwell]

Good grades Brick.

BTW, Pedja was 10-11 in the first and 4-14 in the secong. Started 4th 0-4 and then switched to driving to basket (4 FT's) before he started seeing triple team on baseline J's from either side. That's when Mike and Brad stepped up two man game and rightly so and some credit has to go to P for keeping Seattle defense honest throughout the game. But the story with Pedja was that he came out with fire and hart whether it was motivated by pride or desire or he just got it whatever it is. Deserves an A and if we won probably A+ (because everyone would have played better D if we won).

Ditto Mike. This game for Mike was an A game as a starting PG and as a team leader. But if we have found a way to steal this one, Mike would have forged a new legend of Mike The Play-Off Bibbinator to go with all his previous clutch performances. He was clutch throughout the game. He had no margin for error with our defense and the way Seattle came out to play and close us out (full credit there to Seattle, it's not all our tired legs and bad D/rebounding). And he knew instinctively who to go to and when and worked his butt off. He had to because Seattle defense worked really hard on slowing him down and limiting him. In fact, Seattle D going so hard after Mike, Brad and Pedja puts their performances in real perspective. I said hard, not smart.

Brad: Only tired legs and related struggles that he is going through as he is coming back from injury prevented Brad from getting an A too. This is not soppy end of the season grading. If the guys were not so obviously tired by the end of the game, we could have stollen it and all those A's wouldn look about right. Brad went out there and worked with Mike, got himself 11 assists and gave up his body on screens and blocks without holding anything back. What he didn't do well (rebounding and D) he was clearly not in shape to do towards the end of the game. So, B+ for Brad.

Mo: A+ of course. Any time you come off the bench for an injured starter and you hustle, D-up and score 13 points on 100% shooting you deserve A+. When you do it in a playoff elimination game, you deserve a new contract.

Man, look at all those A's I just dished out and we lost. I suck at this. Back to you Brick.

 

[Venom]

Actually RA is being paid a tidy little sum to motivate them. And when I looked over at the bench I actually saw some height and some dudes who can rebound.
I wager they couldn't have rebounded any less.

This is the post I have been referring to. It's pretty clear.

 

[KP]

Good grades Brick.

BTW, Pedja was 10-11 in the first and 4-14 in the secong. Started 4th 0-4 and then switched to driving to basket (4 FT's) before he started seeing triple team on baseline J's from either side. That's when Mike and Brad stepped up two man game and rightly so and some credit has to go to P for keeping Seattle defense honest throughout the game. But the story with Pedja was that he came out with fire and hart whether it was motivated by pride or desire or he just got it whatever it is. Deserves an A and if we won probably A+ (because everyone would have played better D if we won).

Ditto Mike. This game for Mike was an A game as a starting PG and as a team leader. But if we have found a way to steal this one, Mike would have forged a new legend of Mike The Play-Off Bibbinator to go with all his previous clutch performances. He was clutch throughout the game. He had no margin for error with our defense and the way Seattle came out to play and close us out (full credit there to Seattle, it's not all our tired legs and bad D/rebounding). And he knew instinctively who to go to and when and worked his butt off. He had to because Seattle defense worked really hard on slowing him down and limiting him. In fact, Seattle D going so hard after Mike, Brad and Pedja puts their performances in real perspective. I said hard, not smart.

Brad: Only tired legs and related struggles that he is going through as he is coming back from injury prevented Brad from getting an A too. This is not soppy end of the season grading. If the guys were not so obviously tired by the end of the game, we could have stollen it and all those A's wouldn look about right. Brad went out there and worked with Mike, got himself 11 assists and gave up his body on screens and blocks without holding anything back. What he didn't do well (rebounding and D) he was clearly not in shape to do towards the end of the game. So, B+ for Brad.

Mo: A+ of course. Any time you come off the bench for an injured starter and you hustle, D-up and score 13 points on 100% shooting you deserve A+. When you do it in a playoff elimination game, you deserve a new contract.

Man, look at all those A's I just dished out and we lost. I suck at this. Back to you Brick.

Great post Bozz, I couldn't agree with your analysis more. Except for the last line of course.

 

[Zyphen]

OK, fair enough. I think we disagree on what motivation is. I think what I consider to be coaching (telling a guy to take open shots, box out better), other folks consider to be motivation. Alright, I can understand that. And I think Rick does alot of that. He's up the whole game, not smoking and joking on the bench like ol' Phil Jackson.

Yea, probably a semantic disagreement. It's rather a gray area for discussion that can go in circles. I don't quite go to such mechanical things like shooting or boxing out. Unless say a coach points out to a player that he outrebounded the exact same guy in game 1 and there's no reason he can't do it again (while coupling that with more mechanical details gotten from game tapes). I'll always remember how Paul Pierce got off in this one series some years back where the Celtics were down like 20 points in the 4th and he scored like almost all of his 30+ in the final quarter. He got this speech about how he's an allstar and he should start playing like one.

Edit: of course, if a guy simply doesn't have the ability, then no amount of motivation will do the trick... motivation is only good for getting players to play at their potential

 

[ImaKingsFan]

This is the post I have been referring to. It's pretty clear.

I guess it's pretty clear to you if you are trying to change the meaning of my post. I suggested he could have tried Tag and Miller together in one of my other posts. I was not dogging Miller. He had nothing in the tank and who could expect him to be in game shape. I didn't. I give up, I am obviously not good at expressing myself and parsing words and twisting the meaning of others posts.

 

[kennadog]

I guess it's pretty clear to you if you are trying to change the meaning of my post. I suggested he could have tried Tag and Miller together in one of my other posts. I was not dogging Miller. He had nothing in the tank and who could expect him to be in game shape. I didn't. I give up, I am obviously not good at expressing myself and parsing words and twisting the meaning of others posts.

Well I'm sorry if I misinterpreted. I think semantics is probably is the problem here. Adelman seems extermely animated on the sidelines, in huddles. I laughed when he broke his whiteboard in one of the late season games, because he was so frustrated with the way the team was playing (I was too, that game.)

Unfortunately, the disadvantage of message boards, chat rooms, whatever, is it is difficult to get truly accurate meaning from what's written. You can't see facial expressions, hear tone of voice, etc. I was only trying to express my point of view on the subject, but think we were talking about different things. It happens.

 

[bozzwell]

Great post Bozz, I couldn't agree with your analysis more. Except for the last line of course.

Cheers KP. I love those guys and I wish they had one more game at Arco. But let's face it, it did not look good for us for the same reason that it did not look good for us most of the year. Not enough size and not enough athleticism. That's why I salute RA for going with starters and almost running them into the ground (as well as calling 3pt point play for Pedja, which was in a more competitive series a questionable call). We went out in style. In his way, RA turned it over to GP. A- for RA (I told you I suck at this).

 

[VF21]

Okay, that's enough.

A couple of you need to just step back and take a deep breath. I won't lock this thread but I won't hesitate to delete some posts.

Ima - I got the impression you were dogging Miller, too. Just so you know...

Now could we all take a deep breath and remember we're here because we're Kings fans? We like it here better than other Kings sites because we don't allow our discussions to dissolve into personal little cat fights...

 

[ImaKingsFan]

Okay, that's enough.

A couple of you need to just step back and take a deep breath. I won't lock this thread but I won't hesitate to delete some posts.

Ima - I got the impression you were dogging Miller, too. Just so you know...

Now could we all take a deep breath and remember we're here because we're Kings fans? We like it here better than other Kings sites because we don't allow our discussions to dissolve into personal little cat fights...

Well, I didn't mean it to sound that way. I thought by my original give RA a F post which I posted while the game was still going on and we were getting killed on the boards, made it clear who I was upset with. I was upset because it was obvious Miller was gassed and I thought Tag at least derserved a shot. It was only my opinion given in the heat of a game. I should know better than to post something in the heat of a game when I am upset.

 

[VF21]

I thought Adelman could have done some things different, too, but bottom line is the handwriting was really on the wall in the 4th quarter. The guys just didn't have anything left. Peja was bushed, and he kept giving. Bibby couldn't give anything more. Miller was willing but his legs just wouldn't cooperate. We were done. Adelman knew it and he wasn't going to insult the guys that had tried so hard by yanking them at the end. That, IMHO, would have been an unnecessary slap in the face.

Face it. We were not going to get the next three games. We might have pulled this one out if things had gone differently but the Sonics were not going to lose three in a row. It just wasn't going to be.

 

[slugking50]

Napear and Lamb were discussing that. Whether you like Lamb or not he did play pro sports. He said if people think coaches are giving fire 'em up speaches to grown men in the locker room, they are sadly mistaken. Doesn't happen.

Hmm I thought he was cut in training camp? Does that really count as playing pro sports?







Good grades brick.

 

[TheSerbianQueen]

True - we lost! but i think what most of us wanted to see (besides the possible win, of course!) was some passion, some fighting,.... and WE GOT IT!! Kings didn't just want to hand this game over and I am very proud of them for it. To be honest with you, I expected it to be way worse than it was. The guys looked like they actually wanted to win and it was great to see it.
It's really too bad it had to come to an end this quickly - I wasn't ready for season to end just yet.

 

[Ryle]

How about he try Tag and Miller? As many second chance opportunities as we were giving them, what could it have hurt to have tried him? It would have been impossible for him to have done much worse.

Totally agree. One thing you will realize is that the majority of people here have blinders on when it comes to Adelman and he can do no wrong.

We were outrebounded tonight by almost 20 and our 2 best interior players rode the pine virtually the entire last 2 games.

 

[coolhandluke]

Totally agree. One thing you will realize is that the majority of people here have blinders on when it comes to Adelman and he can do no wrong.

We were outrebounded tonight by almost 20 and our 2 best interior players rode the pine virtually the entire last 2 games.

Yep. It was frustrating to see the Kings make a defensive stand only to watch Seattle get an offensive board after a bad miss. Kenny was off tonight and Tag would have been a perfect alternative, given his good rebounding and shotblocking skills.

 

[SacKingsFX]

...as an OG to check Ray,

But our baordwork and defense were terrible again, and we just simply got outworked right into TDOS...

whats OG and TDOS? Off Guard?

 

[Team Dime]

We made them the better team tonight. We played D and got the misses and they were getting the rebounds. So instead of us having a chance to go down and even it up they were given yet another opportunity to pull ahead of us.
This game was winnable. And you don't have to be snotty and tell me to DEal with it. I am allowed my observations too. He was outcoached plain and simple.

If I'm being snotty it's b/c this constant blaming Adelman is childish and completely ridiculous. He didn't get outcoached. The Sonics were the better team. The Kings were never going to beat anyone with their defense. This time wins with offense. Overall it's fools gold, just like the Suns, it won't get you to the promised land in the end, but it could've been good enough to beat the Sonics. You originally said RA should've taken Brad out and put in Tag. There was no specification as to when he should've done this. But in the 4th quarter with the season on the line, the way the Kings were going to win was on the backs of Bibby and Peja, with Brad running the offense, setting picks for Bibby, from the high post, not the bench!

 

[Team Dime]

whats OG and TDOS? Off Guard?

Yea, off guard, as opposed to point guard. Hopefully those terms next season will be in reference to Evans and Bibby, respectively .

I was wondering about TDOS myself, but it appears like it's "The Dreaded Off-Season". Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ImaKingsFan]

If I'm being snotty it's b/c this constant blaming Adelman is childish and completely ridiculous. He didn't get outcoached. The Sonics were the better team. The Kings were never going to beat anyone with their defense. This time wins with offense. Overall it's fools gold, just like the Suns, it won't get you to the promised land in the end, but it could've been good enough to beat the Sonics. You originally said RA should've taken Brad out and put in Tag. There was no specification as to when he should've done this. But in the 4th quarter with the season on the line, the way the Kings were going to win was on the backs of Bibby and Peja, with Brad running the offense, setting picks for Bibby, from the high post, not the bench!

Did you see how many times in the 4th we made the defensive stop only for the Sonics to get the rebound? Instead of having a chance to go down and even it up or pull ahead almost every time the Sonics scored on their second chance situation. Miller was gassed..if nothing else if he had to leave him in why not Try MILLER and TAG.. we worked hard to get those stops we needed the rebounds. And once again.. insults.. just because you do not agree with others opinions it does not make them "childish" or ridiculous" I did not ridicule you for your opposing opinion. All I know is that season after season the excuses come but not the rings. I have never said RA is the worst coach. I feel he is a good regular season coach, but I don't think he has the tools to get it done in the playoffs and so far his record with Portland and the Kings seems to back that up.

 

[Team Dime]

Did you see how many times in the 4th we made the defensive stop only for the Sonics to get the rebound? Instead of having a chance to go down and even it up or pull ahead almost every time the Sonics scored on their second chance situation. Miller was gassed..if nothing else if he had to leave him in why not Try MILLER and TAG.. we worked hard to get those stops we needed the rebounds. And once again.. insults.. just because you do not agree with others opinions it does not make them "childish" or ridiculous" I did not ridicule you for your opposing opinion. All I know is that season after season the excuses come but not the rings. I have never said RA is the worst coach. I feel he is a good regular season coach, but I don't think he has the tools to get it done in the playoffs and so far his record with Portland and the Kings seems to back that up.

Putting in Tag or Skinner at PF? Possibly. But for reasons I previously stated, you have to leave Brad in. I seriously doubt that you're going to lose any sleep over me "insulting" you. It's the oldest argument in sports that whenever the team loses to blame the coach. The average person who doesn't know that much about the situation finds it easy to jump on the fire the coach bandwagon. It's not Joe Torre's fault the Yankees are struggling,that his millionaire players aren't getting the job done. He's no different than when he won 4 World Series rings. He's the same manager now that he was then. Just like Adelman was the same coach now that he was when the Kings were one game from the Conference Finals.

He just doesn't have the defensive players needed to get the job done. You can argue all you want that Tag should've been in sooner, but this is Ostertag, not Ben Wallace. The guy provides size along with several limitations. Regardless, the Kings had a shot, down by 2, all they needed was one stop. The best defender for the Kings last night, Evans couldn't stop Allen. Neither could Miller or the other supposed great Kings defender Peja. I severly doubt Ostertag would've stopped Ray either. He's just not that type of player, he has no hops. In fact, Tag probably wouldn't fouled Ray, allowing Ray to make the layup and get to the line (and 1!).

Bottom line, this team had alot of flaws, they weren't going anywhere. It's not RA's fault we lost the game or the series. Overall, RA did one hell of a job.


However, I do support making a move for Phil Jackson. I have complete confidence in RA, he's a very good coach, but PJ is a great coach. This will be a season full of changes, I think Petrie will take alot of steps in the right direction of turning things around.

 

[ImaKingsFan]

Putting in Tag or Skinner at PF? Possibly. But for reasons I previously stated, you have to leave Brad in. I seriously doubt that you're going to lose any sleep over me "insulting" you. It's the oldest argument in sports that whenever the team loses to blame the coach. The average person who doesn't know that much about the situation finds it easy to jump on the fire the coach bandwagon. It's not Joe Torre's fault the Yankees are struggling,that his millionaire players aren't getting the job done. He's no different than when he won 4 World Series rings. He's the same manager now that he was then. Just like Adelman was the same coach now that he was when the Kings were one game from the Conference Finals.

He just doesn't have the defensive players needed to get the job done. You can argue all you want that Tag should've been in sooner, but this is Ostertag, not Ben Wallace. The guy provides size along with several limitations. Regardless, the Kings had a shot, down by 2, all they needed was one stop. The best defender for the Kings last night, Evans couldn't stop Allen. Neither could Miller or the other supposed great Kings defender Peja. I severly doubt Ostertag would've stopped Ray either. He's just not that type of player, he has no hops. In fact, Tag probably wouldn't fouled Ray, allowing Ray to make the layup and get to the line (and 1!).

Bottom line, this team had alot of flaws, they weren't going anywhere. It's not RA's fault we lost the game or the series. Overall, RA did one hell of a job.


However, I do support making a move for Phil Jackson. I have complete confidence in RA, he's a very good coach, but PJ is a great coach. This will be a season full of changes, I think Petrie will take alot of steps in the right direction of turning things around.

FYI I am not a newbie to this site and I didn't jump on or off any bandwagons. I defy you to find ONE single post since I joined this site (Dec. 2001) where I said RA should be FIRED. Just because I have problems with his coaching doesn't make me childish, ridiculous or SOMEONE who doesn't know much about the situation!! And whether you like it or not, Adleman does have some accountability in year after year not getting the job done. He does not share the blame alone but when he did have the team who could get it done it didn't happen. I thought this was a place where all opinions were welcome and disagreement is one thing but INSULTS are not necessary. It doesn't really matter if I lose sleep over your derogatory comments or not, it boils down to-- this is a Kings fan site we can agree to disagree but personal insults are not necessary. I respect my fellows Kings fans why should you be any different?

 

[kingsfannPDX]

Did you see how many times in the 4th we made the defensive stop only for the Sonics to get the rebound

yeah, i think it happened on every possesion, sometimes two, or three times. then they'd go to the line. the only time miller got a rebound was after the missed free-throws and then he losses it out -of -bounds. i'm with you on this on IKF. and for the record, i'm not bashing miller. i think RA should've tried putting TAG in. i mean at least give it a shot.

 

[bibbinator]

True - we lost! but i think what most of us wanted to see (besides the possible win, of course!) was some passion, some fighting,.... and WE GOT IT!! Kings didn't just want to hand this game over and I am very proud of them for it. To be honest with you, I expected it to be way worse than it was. The guys looked like they actually wanted to win and it was great to see it.
It's really too bad it had to come to an end this quickly - I wasn't ready for season to end just yet.

I agree. I was happy they played a respectable final game.