I
Im Still Ballin
Guest
I always believed WCS would thrive both offensively and defensively with Karl
He reminds me of a 7 foot Faried running the break
He reminds me of a 7 foot Faried running the break
[Grades] Grades v. Pacers 1/23/2016
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Glad to see Karl moving away from the Rondo-DC pairing, because it's not working. This is one of the reasons why we're winning more lately. WCS is the main reason of course.
Edit: Now that I look at it again, the graph actually shows the opposite. I'll just leave it here in shame
Edit 2: The lead increase doesn't come from the Rondo-DC pairing, but potentially from Marco going to the bench. Back to my initial premise
Edit: Now that I look at it again, the graph actually shows the opposite. I'll just leave it here in shame
Edit 2: The lead increase doesn't come from the Rondo-DC pairing, but potentially from Marco going to the bench. Back to my initial premise
Last edited:
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
Smallball is successful because there is a dearth of dominant bigs in the league. A dozen years ago you had Shaq, Duncan, and even Vlade/CWebb to a lesser degree. Guys that could play with their back to the basket and destroy teams that tried to play small. Remember the early 2000's Dallas Mavs with Nowitzki, Nash, Finley, and Marion? That team was just as talented as this current Warriors team is, but couldn't beat the Lakers, Spurs or Kings (when healthy). This Warrior team wouldn't be able to play small against those Lakers, Spurs or Kings teams either because those bigs would shoot 60+% every game AND get to the line a lot. And if they went with a big to matchup, they aren't near as good and would still get eaten up inside.
Boogie and Karl Anthony-Towns are 2 bigs that can combat the recent smallball trend if they are utilized correctly and surrounded with the right mix of talent. They can be used to punish small teams inside over and over until the smaller team simply has to adjust. A big shooting 60% and getting double-digit FTA's will beat a team shooting 40% on 3's.
Say what? It's not even close... You do realize the Warriors are the second best defensive team in the league and only trailing the Spurs, who are on a historically good pace right now.
I'd put this Warriors team against any club in NBA history and bet they could take anybody to 7 games. They're a Small-Ball team that really isn't Small-ball. Draymond Green is the second best defensive player in the league and his versatility as a playmaker makes him one of the more unique players we've ever seen. Bogut remains a top-tier defensive C and every team in the league would instantly play Festus 15-20 minutes a game off their bench. Many would start him. They're one of the deepest teams in the league and can go 10 strong if needed.
And Steph Curry is doing things on the offensive end that we haven't seen since Jordan. He has the highest TS at 68% and is 4th in the NBA in USG at 32%... that's absolutely stupid.
You're just vastly overrating the mid- 00's powers if you think the Warriors couldn't hang with them
At any rate, I think one of the biggest changes we've seen is this team is starting to really trust and know how to play with one another. What made our teams so great back in the glory years was great talent sure, but nobody could match our chemistry. It's a big part of the historic seasons the Spurs and Warriors are putting together right now.
It'll be interesting to see how we incorporate Rudy into the new world of WCS getting 30+ minutes. We're at 3 games now of him getting big minutes, so I think it's something to expect moving forward. I for one would be interested in seeing how he does in a 6th man role. Separate him and Cousins on-court time a bit, and let him get some serious run vs other teams 2nd units.
It'll be interesting to see how we incorporate Rudy into the new world of WCS getting 30+ minutes. We're at 3 games now of him getting big minutes, so I think it's something to expect moving forward. I for one would be interested in seeing how he does in a 6th man role. Separate him and Cousins on-court time a bit, and let him get some serious run vs other teams 2nd units.
I
Im Still Ballin
Guest
I'll give you a quote from Karl himself which explains essentially why the center disappeared
The game got easier for perimeter oriented offense, and teams follow the path of least resistance which allows them the most success. Though I wont deny the death of the traditional back to the basket bigman started way back when they made rules against Kareem and Wilt, it has been a gradual shift, especially since the 80's where the 3 point line was introduced from the ABA style of ball. The culmination of all these rule changes is essentially Golden State today. This is the wet dream the league has wanted for decades. Fast and exciting.
The game got easier for perimeter oriented offense, and teams follow the path of least resistance which allows them the most success. Though I wont deny the death of the traditional back to the basket bigman started way back when they made rules against Kareem and Wilt, it has been a gradual shift, especially since the 80's where the 3 point line was introduced from the ABA style of ball. The culmination of all these rule changes is essentially Golden State today. This is the wet dream the league has wanted for decades. Fast and exciting.
I
Im Still Ballin
Guest
In the last 16 years, it was the Illegal defense removal in 2001 and the tightening of the handchecking and 3 in the key in 2005 after Cuban complained of how Detroit defended Kobe in the 2004 finals... These two things really hurt post play
This is a good article on the state of post ups in the league today
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/w...he-nba-post-up-game-to-bring-you-its-rebirth/
Still an effective method of scoring, especially when you have a guy like Demarcus Cousins who will brutalize small frontlines. The problem is if the refs will call it like they did tonight. What Cuz did tonight was an example of good refereeing the paint. The game is extremely biased towards inside bigs
This is a good article on the state of post ups in the league today
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/w...he-nba-post-up-game-to-bring-you-its-rebirth/
Still an effective method of scoring, especially when you have a guy like Demarcus Cousins who will brutalize small frontlines. The problem is if the refs will call it like they did tonight. What Cuz did tonight was an example of good refereeing the paint. The game is extremely biased towards inside bigs
I
Im Still Ballin
Guest
It would have been a sight to behold seeing Cousins play in a league where the average pace was in the low 90's- high 80's, and there was illegal defense to protect post players. Cousins would easily fit in with the great centers of the 80's and 90's
Sac.Kings
All-Star
In terms of the Warriors being elite defensively and comparing them to the best teams 10-15 years ago, I have to say that as good as Draymond Green is, he is allowed to get away with a lot. He absolutely mugs people down low, especially guys bigger than him. I mean seriously, there is no realistic way a 6-7 guy can guard 7 footers without fouling at least a few times down low, especially someone like Cousins. Bogut isn't as elite as he once was, but he still can more than hold his own down there. Iggy is still a good defensive player, but he is allowed to get away with a lot as well (the Finals come to mind, as there were many a play where he clearly fouled Lebron with no calls).
Does anyone really think Draymond would have had a chance against someone like Webb or even Duncan 15 years ago? Draymond, as talented as he is, happened to come into the league at absolutely the right time, because if it was 20 years ago, I doubt he would be even half as productive and would be crucified down low. The Warriors are a ridiculously talented team, they have all-star players/former all star players sitting on their bench. However, as someone mentioned before, they are a creation of today's rules and today's game (which is fine, I have nothing against that).
Does anyone really think Draymond would have had a chance against someone like Webb or even Duncan 15 years ago? Draymond, as talented as he is, happened to come into the league at absolutely the right time, because if it was 20 years ago, I doubt he would be even half as productive and would be crucified down low. The Warriors are a ridiculously talented team, they have all-star players/former all star players sitting on their bench. However, as someone mentioned before, they are a creation of today's rules and today's game (which is fine, I have nothing against that).
SLAB
Hall of Famer
Any note on if Ben tweaked something, or was he just completely benched? He wasn't hitting his shots (or layups), but was bringing a hell of a lot more energy to the table than Marco was.
Games like tonight can't be good for a player that seems so fragile... Have a bad stretch and its straight to the bench while you watch your backup rack up minutes while playing 10X's worse... My one major complaint from last night
Games like tonight can't be good for a player that seems so fragile... Have a bad stretch and its straight to the bench while you watch your backup rack up minutes while playing 10X's worse... My one major complaint from last night
kupman
Starter
I posted this on January 6. Looks like I got my wish. We are also very close to being 10-1 in 2016. It feels great!
Random thoughts...
Hopefully, there will be a book written about Vlade's role in stabilizing this franchise. As a couple of earlier posters have mentioned, his ability to manage strong personalities and (seemingly) facilitate open and healthy communication has been (imho) *the* catalyst to this team being in the process of turning a corner. If administrators were eligible for MVP, I suspect he would be a front-runner.
The WCS/DMC front-court pairing is going to terrorize teams. With all of the usual caveats about WCS (health being the biggest), I am interested in what others think about what other rookies have a higher ceiling. Most of the rookies from this class are much farther along the developmental curve. One thing that popped last night is how effortlessly, for a 7-footer, he was able to dribble towards the half-court line before passing to one of the guards. The combination of his athleticism, energy and basketball instincts are eye-opening.
I haven't felt this good about the Kings in a long time.
Hopefully, there will be a book written about Vlade's role in stabilizing this franchise. As a couple of earlier posters have mentioned, his ability to manage strong personalities and (seemingly) facilitate open and healthy communication has been (imho) *the* catalyst to this team being in the process of turning a corner. If administrators were eligible for MVP, I suspect he would be a front-runner.
The WCS/DMC front-court pairing is going to terrorize teams. With all of the usual caveats about WCS (health being the biggest), I am interested in what others think about what other rookies have a higher ceiling. Most of the rookies from this class are much farther along the developmental curve. One thing that popped last night is how effortlessly, for a 7-footer, he was able to dribble towards the half-court line before passing to one of the guards. The combination of his athleticism, energy and basketball instincts are eye-opening.
I haven't felt this good about the Kings in a long time.
AND even Ben has started a string of good games that might lead him to join the four before season's end.
Bellinelli is part of a team that is 5-0 and you think now is the time he should be benched? Come back when he loses games for us. In the meantime leave it to the coach.
The competition isn't between small ball and traditional big man ball, th competition is to win games using the tools you have. Coaches might be smarter than we think.
Blob
Starter
My favorite play of the game was Boogie rebounds and outlets to Willie who goes on a one man fast break with one man to beat and resorts to a left-handed flip then the smallest man on the floor (DC) comes flying in and one hand rebounds it and banks it in! You could watch a decade of hoops and not see a 7 footer lead a one man solo break and the littlest guy come in there and rebound the miss....that play just blows my mind! 
And Willie is doing a much better job getting the boards! And per his post-game quote he said "I don't think it is something that even been touched on yet. I haven't even been focusing on it yet." Willie is average 11 RPG over last three games which is great considering he is playing with 4th best rebounder. At this rate the Kings could have two Top 5 rebounders in NBA!
The other stat worth monitoring is difference in points allowed when Willie plays about 30 MPG. I am excluding the games from prior to his injury because the difference between then and now is that Willie is doing a better job of knowing where to be on the floor. He's more comfortable in the play sets and knowing the tendencies of his teammates.
Early on there was uncertainty and hesitancy about where to go on the floor. Now he knows what to do and where to be. It is more instinctual which allows him to rely on his natural gifts to defend and make fundamental basketball plays.
In the 4 games of playing 24 minutes or more since return from injury, Willie is averaging 29 MPG and 10 PPG and 10 RPG ..... and a 4-0 record!!! But more importantly in these 4 wins the Kings have allowed 94.8 PPG to the opponent.
This compares to our 107 PPG allowed over all games....which is worst in the NBA. So in this limited sample size of Willie 24 MPG or more, he is 10/10 and helped to decrease our points allowed by 12 points per game. This correlates to 4-5 stops we would not otherwise get.
The significance of his defensive impact is meaningful when you have two SGs who combine for 4-19 FGs and 0 assists and 3 rebounds. No scoring. No floor game. No steady confidence from either guy and a coach who stubbornly insisted on granting minutes to a player (Marco) who is on too long of a leash and needs a few DNP-CDs to get his mind right and legs fresh.
A recipe to win with offense only is a losing recipe when you have such inconsistent production from this spot. The emergence of Willie means we don't necessarily have to have points from guys incapable of producing consistently.
The ineffectiveness of Marco and Ben is magnified due to absence of Rudy along with recent struggles of Omri. Underestimated during this stretch has been Darren clutch play and scoring when the team has been wavering. Darren is baller and gutsy which makes it incredulous for fans to fault his effort and production relative to what else that position has offered.
Ben has to be sitting on the bench sometimes and think "Damn I am losing minutes to this guy (Marco)!!???!!" Seth has to be sitting on the bench sometimes and think "Damn I am losing minutes to these guys (Marco and Ben)!!??!??!!" Darren has be sitting on the bench sometimes and think "Damn I am not a SG but I can play SG better than all these guys (Marco, Ben, Seth)!!!!!"
And Willie is doing a much better job getting the boards! And per his post-game quote he said "I don't think it is something that even been touched on yet. I haven't even been focusing on it yet." Willie is average 11 RPG over last three games which is great considering he is playing with 4th best rebounder. At this rate the Kings could have two Top 5 rebounders in NBA!
The other stat worth monitoring is difference in points allowed when Willie plays about 30 MPG. I am excluding the games from prior to his injury because the difference between then and now is that Willie is doing a better job of knowing where to be on the floor. He's more comfortable in the play sets and knowing the tendencies of his teammates.
Early on there was uncertainty and hesitancy about where to go on the floor. Now he knows what to do and where to be. It is more instinctual which allows him to rely on his natural gifts to defend and make fundamental basketball plays.
In the 4 games of playing 24 minutes or more since return from injury, Willie is averaging 29 MPG and 10 PPG and 10 RPG ..... and a 4-0 record!!! But more importantly in these 4 wins the Kings have allowed 94.8 PPG to the opponent.
This compares to our 107 PPG allowed over all games....which is worst in the NBA. So in this limited sample size of Willie 24 MPG or more, he is 10/10 and helped to decrease our points allowed by 12 points per game. This correlates to 4-5 stops we would not otherwise get.
The significance of his defensive impact is meaningful when you have two SGs who combine for 4-19 FGs and 0 assists and 3 rebounds. No scoring. No floor game. No steady confidence from either guy and a coach who stubbornly insisted on granting minutes to a player (Marco) who is on too long of a leash and needs a few DNP-CDs to get his mind right and legs fresh.
A recipe to win with offense only is a losing recipe when you have such inconsistent production from this spot. The emergence of Willie means we don't necessarily have to have points from guys incapable of producing consistently.
The ineffectiveness of Marco and Ben is magnified due to absence of Rudy along with recent struggles of Omri. Underestimated during this stretch has been Darren clutch play and scoring when the team has been wavering. Darren is baller and gutsy which makes it incredulous for fans to fault his effort and production relative to what else that position has offered.
Ben has to be sitting on the bench sometimes and think "Damn I am losing minutes to this guy (Marco)!!???!!" Seth has to be sitting on the bench sometimes and think "Damn I am losing minutes to these guys (Marco and Ben)!!??!??!!" Darren has be sitting on the bench sometimes and think "Damn I am not a SG but I can play SG better than all these guys (Marco, Ben, Seth)!!!!!"
Last edited:
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
I was referring to their offensive abilities. That's where smallball provides the greatest advantage. Offensively, that Dallas team was every bit as potent as this Warriors team. In fact, they presented more challenges and mismatches. As good as Steph is, Dirk Nowitzki -- in his prime -- presented a tougher matchup problem. Shawn Marion aka the Matrix was their Draymond Green minus the passing ability. Steve Nash was their version of Steph Curry. And Michael Finley was a more athletic version of Klay Thompson.
But defensively, you are correct that the Warriors are much better than that team.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
I wouldn't bet on that if I were you.
He should be benched and fined ... and made to stand in the corner.
jcassio
Starter
Are you kidding me? Bels is a liability when he's not hitting his shots and the other teams have noticed. Time for Karl to adjust. Look how long it took Karl to accept WCS in the role that he's now in. It wasn't about WCS becoming a different (or better) player, it was about Karl making the necessary adjustments so he could (finally) give WCS the minutes. Karl may be a genius, but he's also a little slow to adjust at times. When Bels and Casspi are clearly not hitting their shots, give Curry and Acy a chance to help the team. Their energy is infectious.
I like Marco'S energy. He moves on offense, he moves on defense. He is missing shots. He will make shots. He is doing what we got him for. Keep on playing him. Keep on playing Ben. Don't sit them for Curry. His time will come.
I
Im Still Ballin
Guest
Karl is definitely not slow to adjust. He gets criticized either way. He's played a hell of a lot of different lineups.
The Hammer
All-Star
Thing is, a player missing shots is not something you "adjust". All players go through cold stretches, and you can't make it a precedent that you bench guys when that happens, or else it has team-wide confidence effects. Marco is a great shooter. He's one of the best in the game. He's not physically gifted on defense, which is his problem, not really effort. So no, you don't bench a vet with championship experience, recent 3 pt. contest champ, perennial great shooter, because of a five game cold streak.
K
KingMilz
Guest
Marco came into the NBA a pretty decent athlete (very decent) with solid 2 guard size and he was crap on defense than as well so I don't belevie it's as much a physical issue as some are making out. There's a number of poor athletes who play defense well/at a acceptable level it's clearly a effort/desire thing. You would think someone with his experience and basketball iq would be at worst slightly below average rather he's rock bottom.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll
- Poll
