[Grades] Grades v. Mavs 04/10/12

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Cuz isn't built for run and gun type play, and neither are most centers, nor should they be expected to be your line of defense to prevent other teams from fast breaking and scoring in transition against you. Smart wants us running at every opportunity, which leads to more quick shots, and longer shots which in itself leads to more transition opportunities for opponents. We're not working for the best shot in a half court set, we're working for the first shot, no matter where on the court and even having guys getting pulled for not jacking up enough jumpers....

This all leads more transition opportunities for opponents, and you're blaming Cuz for not getting back when he has the farthest to run? Well, why are we putting our 270lb center in that position? He's racing down the court and before he can set up shop in the post a guard jacks up a quick jumper, leading to a long rebound, we're off in the other direction and you're blaming Cuz for not being one of the first back?

Well, lets look at the top centers in the game and ask how many of those would are built for up and down, run and gun, transition games.

Howard? No, but might have the best shot of the current centers in the league at racing back and and breaking up constant transition opportunities, although it isn't his strength obviously. Half court defense is where opponents are shaded towards him.

Marc Gasol? No way.
Andrew Bynum? No way
Hibbert? No way.
Andrew Bogut? No way.
Kaman? Nope
Chandler? Better than most, but he's rarely getting back and stopping transition opportunities.

Shaq? No
Hakeem? No
Ewing? No
Vlade during our golden era? No

Teams with dominant center do not run and gun and give opponents so many scoring opportunities in transition. What they might do, is come together and form very good half court defensive teams which like to get out and score in transition when the opportunity presents itself. But that's completely different than our undisciplined approach to both sides of the ball.

I see your point. Two things though -

No matter what the circumstances are, Cousins needs to get back on defense faster. I understand the reasons WHY he may get beat down the court from time to time .. and you touched on most of them, but that doesn't mean he is excused from playing transition defense. Brandon freaking Heywood beat him down the court multiple times last night. One of the slowest bigs in the league.

Now there is switching and picking up we can do. You would hope someone would cover Cousins man while he gets back, but as a team we are so dumb defensively ... we just cannot do that right now. Everyone has to make sure they have their man covered, including Cousins. You're right, he has the deepest position in our offense, so its understandable that he is the last one back, but when he doesn't get the ball he is VISUALLY frustrated, and takes his time getting back. When he does get the ball and he thinks he got fouled he spends way to much time ****ing around with the ref. Just get back buddy.

Second thing, you're comparing him to centers, which is fine for now. I'm not so sure he won't be a PF by the time this team is set up. Well, I suppose positions don't mean as much now as they used to, but you know what I mean. Say we draft Drummond .. who's the center between those two? or when we had Dalembert last season.

 

[rainmaker]

Muss - coaching lakers D League team
Theus - On Rambis staff for 3 years. Currently not coaching. Looking at college positions.
Natt - India's senior mens head coach for their upstart federation.
Westfail - too soon after firing, but doubtful to ever get another coaching gig.

Exactly my point, which some of those answers I knew. Put those guys in head coaching positions around the league and then tell those fans not to complain. None of our last five head coaches are considered head coaching material by the rest of the league. That is a problem. Not the only problem of course, but a big part of the overall problem.

 

[Bricklayer]

Excuse me, what?

How on earth could you say that? he's the ideal open court player - on the halfcourt (unless you let him bounce the ball for the entire clock and let him play 1v5 sacrificing the entire offense so he can be a volume scorer) he's a terrible player cause the defense forces him to take alot more jumpers and close his penetration as much as possible knowing that's the only thing he can do - and the kid can't shot a jumper to save his life from about 3 feet out, being arguebly the worst shooter in this league.

What makes Tyreke special is PRECISELY his halfcourt ability. The problem is the jumper of course, but what Tyreke can do in a halfcourt, creating shots and layups out of nothing is a top 1% skill. Its the one you look for forever and almsot never find. Scoring on the break is easy. Somebody who can create in the halfcourt is very rare.

And the thing is, one of the items of highest praise for Tyreke as a young player was precisely that he was very patient. He likes to take his time. He does not rush. And now he's told to rush constantly. And frankly if you watch him out there you can feel the discomfort level he has with it. He'll run out at absolutely full speed and charge down the court and its not thoguht out, its just because he's been told to do so and if he waits for us to settle into the halfcourt he may never get the ball back. I've long thought that Tyreke's comfort spot was precisely in the halfcourt, taking his time, with the runouts and breaks only coming occasionally when he gets a defensive rebound or when we create a turnover. The racing up and down the court stuff never looks comfortable.

 

[JB_kings]

Who are the other teams around the league offering head coaching positions to our last five coaches?

Muscleman
Theus
Natt
Westy
Smart

Problem is when some fans act like our head coaches are legit NBA head coaches. If they were, they'd have been offered head coaching positions elsewhere after we canned them. But we put non NBA head coaches in head coaching positions, and then some fans step forward and act like there's nothing to complain about. Who were the teams battling for Smarts services after his stint in GS last year? Oh that's right, none, as a head coach. But you think McMillan won't be offered a FEW head coaching positions this summer? The problem is fans who put the five coaches above on the same level as an Adelman or McMillan.

So you want to fire Smart and keep building on that list? Because that is what you are advocating here. We all want a proven winning NBA coach. No argument there. Those guys cost a ton of money and we have owners that won't spend that. Just stating the obvious here. At least Smart is turning Cousins into a franchise player. The offense has gotten tons better. The team defense is the worst in the league and that is on the coaching staff and players. The players like the coach and are improving like the numbers show. Paul Westphal was rock bottom in every sense just a few months ago and it's pretty amazing that it's been turned around as much as it has. I think it's shown enough that I'm not ready to jettison another coach.

I think everyone is unhappy with the defense. But I'm not ready to take a chance on the next guy who is willing to work for peanuts taking his shot.

 

[Boogie-havoc]

What makes Tyrek special is PRECISELY his halfcourt ability. The problem is the jumper of course, but what Tyreke can do in a halfcourt, creating shtos and layups out of nothing is a top 1% skill. its the one you look for forever and almsot never find. Scoring on the break is easy. Somebody who can create in the halfcourt is very rare.

And the thing is, one of the items of highest praise for Tyreke as a young player was precisely that he was very patient. He likes to take his time. He does not rush. And now he's told to rush constantly. And frankly if you watch him out there yoiu can feel the discomfort level he has with it. He's run out at absolutely full speed and charge downt he court and its not thoguht out, its just because he's been told to do so and if he waits for us to settle inot the halfcourt he may never get the ball back. I've logn thought that Tyreke's comfort spot was precisely in the halfcourt, taking his time, with the runouts and breaks only coming occasionally when he gets a defensive reboudn or when we create a turnover. The racing up and down the court stuff never looks comfortable.

But what makes him special pretty much makes the team and the offense suck - which is my point. he's "designed" to play halfcourt offense when you play "Tyreke-Ball" and let him go 5v1 bouncing the ball for 20 seconds before he tries to penetrate (and again, while he can get to the line and finish well, he also goes with his head against the wall and get offensive fouls or just gets stuck and forced to pass - if he isn't forced to take a jumper, that again he has no idea how to make those).

Other then for Tyrekes personal glory and stats - what good does that do?

Aslong as he shoots in the 20% range from just about anywhere on the court - playing actuall basketball and not 1v5 Tyreke-Ball - he's a bad halfcourt player. there's just no other way around it.

 

[pshn80]

What makes Tyrek special is PRECISELY his halfcourt ability. The problem is the jumper of course, but what Tyreke can do in a halfcourt, creating shtos and layups out of nothing is a top 1% skill. its the one you look for forever and almsot never find. Scoring on the break is easy. Somebody who can create in the halfcourt is very rare.

And the thing is, one of the items of highest praise for Tyreke as a young player was precisely that he was very patient. He likes to take his time. He does not rush. And now he's told to rush constantly. And frankly if you watch him out there yoiu can feel the discomfort level he has with it. He's run out at absolutely full speed and charge downt he court and its not thoguht out, its just because he's been told to do so and if he waits for us to settle inot the halfcourt he may never get the ball back. I've logn thought that Tyreke's comfort spot was precisely in the halfcourt, taking his time, with the runouts and breaks only coming occasionally when he gets a defensive reboudn or when we create a turnover. The racing up and down the court stuff never looks comfortable.

The kind of player you describe Evans as makes sense out of what we have seen, and it sure makes me scratch my head. I'm sure it has made Smart and Westphal scratch theirs also. I hope the world comes up with a good way to use his talents on a winning basketball team, Of course, around here that's asking a lot.

 

[Spike]

So you want to fire Smart and keep building on that list? Because that is what you are advocating here. We all want a proven winning NBA coach. No argument there. Those guys cost a ton of money and we have owners that won't spend that. Just stating the obvious here. At least Smart is turning Cousins into a franchise player. The offense has gotten tons better. The team defense is the worst in the league and that is on the coaching staff and players. The players like the coach and are improving like the numbers show. Paul Westphal was rock bottom in every sense just a few months ago and it's pretty amazing that it's been turned around as much as it has. I think it's shown enough that I'm not ready to jettison another coach.

I think everyone is unhappy with the defense. But I'm not ready to take a chance on the next guy who is willing to work for peanuts taking his shot.

Clearly we can't replace Smart if we're going to do it with a cheap has-been or a never-will-be. It has to be a winning coach. And it has to be now. Successful coaches wouldn't try to run with this team to just try to outscore the opposition. They would focus on defense. Especially with such a young team.
Our defense is abysmal. It went from bad to absolutely putrid. We're now in a stretch where we've won one game in April, and 2 in the last 10 (one was a one point win). Spin the stats anyway you want, but the eyeball test says we are now in a much worse spot than when Smart took over. Back then, we knew that Evans had to work on a jumper to help his game. Now, we wonder if he can play the SF position. We wonder why DMC can't get back on D. We have lost our natural rebounding advantage over teams.

I can't gamle on everything falling into place this offseason. If a good coach is hired (like McMillan), I feel like we can weather a bad draft and free agent period. If we retain Smart, we have to be perfect in the off-season, with both the draft and free agency. What is more likely given the two options? What in the past has shown that we can knock it out of the park in all three facets this offseason.

That is why we need to land a top tier coach. Not Flip. Not someone who hasn't done it before. The time to gamble on a coach has passed us by.

 

[Bricklayer]

But what makes him special pretty much makes the team and the offense suck - which is my point. he's "designed" to play halfcourt offense when you play "Tyreke-Ball" and let him go 5v1 bouncing the ball for 20 seconds before he tries to penetrate (and again, while he can get to the line and finish well, he also goes with his head against the wall and get offensive fouls or just gets stuck and forced to pass - if he isn't forced to take a jumper, that again he has no idea how to make those).

Other then for Tyrekes personal glory and stats - what good does that do?

Aslong as he shoots in the 20% range from just about anywhere on the court - playing actuall basketball and not 1v5 Tyreke-Ball - he's a bad halfcourt player. there's just no other way around it.

You know, people go on and on whine about theat era, but here is something to ponder. Tyreke's ROOKIE year, with a starting linuep that normally included Beno Udrih, Jason Thompson, Spencer Hawes and Andres Nocioni or Omri Casspi, we went 24-53 after Kevin went down and we switched to "Reke ball". That ain't good. Its a .317 winning percentage. Over a full season that's 26-56.

But here's the thing, under Keith Smart this season, with a Boogie Monster flashing superstar stuff many nights, with Marcus Thornton onboard, we are 17-34. That a .333 winning percentage. That also aint good. Over a full season? That's 27-57.

So please don't tell me how much better off we are all of a sudden. We've got FAR more talent (want to guess how many games the Rookie Reke team wins with the Boogie Monster blowing up instead of Spencer Hawes?), but the results are no better. You know what that tells me? It tells me we are badly misusing our talent.

 

[Kingster]

Cuz isn't built for run and gun type play, and neither are most centers, nor should they be expected to be your line of defense to prevent other teams from fast breaking and scoring in transition against you. Smart wants us running at every opportunity, which leads to more quick shots, and longer shots which in itself leads to more transition opportunities for opponents. We're not working for the best shot in a half court set, we're working for the first shot, no matter where on the court and even having guys getting pulled for not jacking up enough jumpers....

This all leads more transition opportunities for opponents, and you're blaming Cuz for not getting back when he has the farthest to run? Well, why are we putting our 270lb center in that position? He's racing down the court and before he can set up shop in the post a guard jacks up a quick jumper, leading to a long rebound, we're off in the other direction and you're blaming Cuz for not being one of the first back?

Well, lets look at the top centers in the game and ask how many of those would are built for up and down, run and gun, transition games.

Howard? No, but might have the best shot of the current centers in the league at racing back and and breaking up constant transition opportunities, although it isn't his strength obviously. Half court defense is where opponents are shaded towards him.

Marc Gasol? No way.
Andrew Bynum? No way
Hibbert? No way.
Andrew Bogut? No way.
Kaman? Nope
Chandler? Better than most, but he's rarely getting back and stopping transition opportunities.

Shaq? No
Hakeem? No
Ewing? No
Vlade during our golden era? No

Teams with dominant center do not run and gun and give opponents so many scoring opportunities in transition. What they might do, is come together and form very good half court defensive teams which like to get out and score in transition when the opportunity presents itself. But that's completely different than our undisciplined approach to both sides of the ball.

Yes, you're point is taken: if the Kings are constantly running, then Cousins is not going to be able to keep up with that running as well as the smaller guys. Even taking that into account, I think there is definitely room for improvement. If we were reviewing film, I could point out the most eggregious instances, but we don't have that technological ability yet online.

I want to point out a couple of things. First, he's not getting back at the beginning of games, so it's not because he's worn down from the game. Second, when Cousins gets one of his steals and plays guard dribbling down the court, I do not see him in the same slow-mo as when he needs to get back on D. I'm not expecting Cousins to be a 100 meters Olympic champ, or be a Howard. I'm just expecting him to improve in this area because I believe he does have it in him. It's a matter of concentration and effort, and stamina. Also, if he needs to slow down, I'd rather he slow down coming down the offensive side of the court, not the defensive side. He came into camp in better shape this year than he did last year. I'm hoping he takes one more step up in that area.

One more thing about improvement from Cousins. Cousins' performance in the last game against the Clipps was extremely interesting to me. He didn't get the stupid fouls he normally does. (He's good for about two a game). He actually didn't act like Cousins. Now why did that happen? Might it be that going against Griffin he was atypically focused for the game? Like he prepared himself mentally before the game so he could have the maximum impact on the game? I think it is. Probably his play was adversely affected because he overcompensated, but I'll easily take that overcompensation expense so that I can get a more disciplined Cousins down the line. He actually reached down and focused. That, to me, is a promising sign. Now if he can tap into that more often, then we're talking...

 

[VF21]

Sorry but some fans beat on Adelman wanted him gone every bit as much as other want Smart gone too. I was a huge fan of Adelman and knew the Kings had a good one. But you couldn't convince some that he was the reason for everything wrong. There were the constant arguments over who should be starting. Hedo over Peja, Miller over Webber, bench Jwill, plays the wrong guys, ruined Gerald Wallace because he wouldn't play him. Played starters too many minutes... actually got fired because he wouldn't kiss the Maloofs butts to their liking! Some on here are positively drooling over Nate McMillen. But Blazers fans actually started up I Hate Nate facebook pages over the guy. Until the Maloofs are finally booted as Kings owners, you can hire and fire a dozen cheap coaches. But the pattern won't change until it's changed from the top down. Maybe Smart isn't the guy long term, but he's done enough good things short term that firing him is a worse option than keeping him for now.

Thank you. I've been trying to think of a way to say this for a while and you just did it for me.

It's all about instant gratification nowadays, and people seem to be consumed with "the grass is greener" view of things. I still maintain that people need to be very careful what they wish for and your summary of the Adelman years should be a true cautionary tale.

 

[Bricklayer]

Thank you. I've been trying to think of a way to say this for a while and you just did it for me.

It's all about instant gratification nowadays, and people seem to be consumed with "the grass is greener" view of things. I still maintain that people need to be very careful what they wish for and your summary of the Adelman years should be a true cautionary tale.

Some people are always going to be idiots.

However Rick Adelman showed up in Sac with a 357-252 .586 winning percentage, 6 playoff appearances in 8 years, and 2 NBA Finals appearances. By the time the anti Adelman contingent was really firing on full, he'd added another 5 straight years of playoff appearances for us. Keith Smart on the other hand is now 62-111 .358 over his career with no playoff appearances. It takes a much greater grass is always greener idiot ot complain about having the former than the latter.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

So you want to fire Smart and keep building on that list? Because that is what you are advocating here. We all want a proven winning NBA coach. No argument there. Those guys cost a ton of money and we have owners that won't spend that. Just stating the obvious here. At least Smart is turning Cousins into a franchise player. The offense has gotten tons better. The team defense is the worst in the league and that is on the coaching staff and players. The players like the coach and are improving like the numbers show. Paul Westphal was rock bottom in every sense just a few months ago and it's pretty amazing that it's been turned around as much as it has. I think it's shown enough that I'm not ready to jettison another coach.

I think everyone is unhappy with the defense. But I'm not ready to take a chance on the next guy who is willing to work for peanuts taking his shot.

I'll settle for someone who won't put four guards on the floor at the same time.

 

[Glenn]

Some people are always going to be idiots.

However Rick Adelman showed up in Sac with a 357-252 .586 winning percentage, 6 playoff appearances in 8 years, and 2 NBA Finals appearances. By the time the anti Adelman contingent was really firing on full, he'd added another 5 straight years of playoff appearances for us. Keith Smart on the other hand is now 62-111 .358 over his career with no playoff appearances. It takes a much greater grass is always greener idiot ot complain about having the former than the latter.

It has been a disease of this area and maybe this is the way it is everywhere but there is always a feeling that we can do better. Get rid of that coach, dump that player, etc. This is the way it was from day one and it seemed that when we dumped a guy to upgrade, it turned out to be a downgrade. Patience, folks, patience. That goes for youg guys also. Be patient. Don't dump them becaue they haven't reached full potential in a season or two. The shame of this all is that the FO seems to buy into this attitude also.

We are new to the game of NBA basketball and tend to hire people new to NBA basketball. That adds no stability or knowledge. It's too bad as, speaking only for myself, I am getting worn down by the mediocrity and just plane stupidity. Maybe it's the pot calling the kettle black and I am the stupid one but I must say, I am getting very tired of what is going on. Stupid or not, the Kings are losing me. I will always be a fan to some extent but they are the ones responsible for maintaining me as an AVID fan.

 

[Section 101]

You know, people go on and on whine about theat era, but here is something to ponder. Tyreke's ROOKIE year, with a starting linuep that normally included Beno Udrih, Jason Thompson, Spencer Hawes and Andres Nocioni or Omri Casspi, we went 24-53 after Kevin went down and we switched to "Reke ball". That ain't good. Its a .317 winning percentage. Over a full season that's 26-56.

But here's the thing, under Keith Smart this season, with a Boogie Monster flashing superstar stuff many nights, with Marcus Thornton onboard, we are 17-34. That a .333 winning percentage. That also aint good. Over a full season? That's 27-57.

So please don't tell me how much better off we are all of a sudden. We've got FAR more talent (want to guess how many games the Rookie Reke team wins with the Boogie Monster blowing up instead of Spencer Hawes?), but the results are no better. You know what that tells me? It tells me we are badly misusing our talent.

Going to call you on this one. We have 2 starters from last year in Evans and Cuz. We started the year with MT basically replacing Beno. We got the scoring, but the offense looked horrible with little assists and tons of turnovers. So basically it was a downgrade at the PG position. We had a new SF in Salmons that was 10x worse than any of the starting SF last year. This was the absolute worst change in the line up. Now take away Daly and insert Hickson. Once again it was big downgrade. So with the 3 new starters we really were worse off on all three. Now insert IT and JT into the starting line up and we got noticeable better. IT has been on par with what we got from Beno. JT for the most part has been steady. He's not the defender of Daly, but he's a better all around player. But now that JT is not on the bench we have Chuck who is a downgrade from JT. Thornton is not on the bench this year we have Jimmer. Outlaw is a bust this year.

You expected to be better with those moves? Really Cuz's improvement, Evans and JT being better than last year are the reasons we are able to at least match last years winning %.

 

[Bricklayer]

Going to call you on this one. We have 2 starters from last year in Evans and Cuz. We started the year with MT basically replacing Beno. We got the scoring, but the offense looked horrible with little assists and tons of turnovers. So basically it was a downgrade at the PG position. We had a new SF in Salmons that was 10x worse than any of the starting SF last year. This was the absolute worst change in the line up. Now take away Daly and insert Hickson. Once again it was big downgrade. So with the 3 new starters we really were worse off on all three. Now insert IT and JT into the starting line up and we got noticeable better. IT has been on par with what we got from Beno. JT for the most part has been steady. He's not the defender of Daly, but he's a better all around player. But now that JT is not on the bench we have Chuck who is a downgrade from JT. Thornton is not on the bench this year we have Jimmer. Outlaw is a bust this year.

You expected to be better with those moves? Really Cuz's improvement, Evans and JT being better than last year are the reasons we are able to at least match last years winning %.

You can't call me on something I never said, since I was clearly referring to Reke's rookie year, not last year.

But yeah, let's talk last year too, with DeMarcus a wild rookie and Reke hurt all year, and Thornton only there for the last 27 games.

 

[Section 101]

You can't call me on something I never said, since I was clearly referring to Reke's rookie year, not last year.

But yeah, let's talk last year too, with DeMarcus a wild rookie and Reke hurt all year, and Thornton only there for the last 27 games.

Last year or the year before had the same record and basically the same scenario. We got worse with 3 starters at the start of the year with the moves made over last summer.