[Grades] Grades v LOLCats 4/22/12

[est.1999]

LOL @ 15%, talk about Evans colored glasses. Evans usage rate 22.8. IT's useage rate 20.0, MT 21.5, Cuz 26.9, JT 14.4. Evans is #2 on the team.

Care to post the usage rate percentages since IT became full time starter at pg and we went small with Evans at the 3? Nope, didn't think so.

 

[Section 101]

Care to post the usage rate percentages since IT became full time starter at pg and we went small with Evans at the 3? Nope, didn't think so.

They aren't broken down that way. It would have to be a long manual process. Your welcome to do it.

But also remember IT wasn't getting much playing time early either. If you think Evans is lower now and that number is just an average then he would still be higher than IT's 20 at his current rate.

 

[Gilles]

If you dominate the ball to the tune of 30% for half a season and then have only 23% usage in end math says your usage for the second half have to be 16%. Those are theoretical numbers outside of 22.8% but you get the idea, right?

 

[Section 101]

If you dominate the ball to the tune of 30% for half a season and then have only 23% usage in end math says your usage for the second half have to be 16%. Those are theoretical numbers outside of 22.8% but you get the idea, right?

No your comparing two different numbers.

 

[Gilles]

Ok, you're right, usage rate have nothing to do with the amount of time the player have the ball in his hands and rather estimates how often the player is finishing team's attacks. My bad.
Why would you bring usage rate though into the conversation about who has the ball most of the time since Thomas entered the starting lineup.

 

[Section 101]

Ok, you're right, usage rate have nothing to do with the amount of time the player have the ball in his hands and rather estimates how often the player is finishing team's attacks. My bad.
Why would you bring usage rate though into the conversation about who has the ball most of the time since Thomas entered the starting lineup.

USG: Usage Rate - the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)

Since they are on the same team the Team Pace is the same. So it this is an accurate comparison of players on the same team.

Unless you want to go back and stopwatch how many seconds a player has the ball in their hands for the entire game this is the next best way to determine who has the ball the most.

 

[Warhawk]

They aren't broken down that way. It would have to be a long manual process. Your welcome to do it.

But also remember IT wasn't getting much playing time early either. If you think Evans is lower now and that number is just an average then he would still be higher than IT's 20 at his current rate.

Pretty disingenuous to bring up a misleading number, use it for an argument, then state that the "real" number would be difficult to calculate so "you are welcome to do it" - it's your argument, you do it if you think it is valid.

 

[Gilles]

Since they are on the same team the Team Pace is the same. So it this is an accurate comparison of players on the same team.

Unless you want to go back and stopwatch how many seconds a player has the ball in their hands for the entire game this is the next best way to determine who has the ball the most.

Since watching the games it's obvious that Tyreke has the ball way less since the lineup change than before that, I think, it's not next best thing but rather least worst way to determine who has the ball the most and not really a valid argument.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

While the 'real number' would be different than the usage rate sites like basketball reference have posted, I would THINK it wouldn't be too far off. Thomas has been the starter for more than half of the season, and Tyrekes usage is still higher .. so while I would agree that Thomas's is most likely higher than Rekes since he has become a starter, I would disagree that Tyeke's usage has completely dropped off like some suggest.

I would agree that Evans isn't being used enough, and that he hasn't been put in the best positions to succeed, but I do not think it is as drastic as some posters here make it out to be.

 

[Section 101]

Pretty disingenuous to bring up a misleading number, use it for an argument, then state that the "real" number would be difficult to calculate so "you are welcome to do it" - it's your argument, you do it if you think it is valid.

How is it misleading? Those are still his stats for the year. If someone cares about specific games it's on them to go back and do the work for each game.

In 5 years when looking at the stats nobody is going to care what position a player was playing for the season. His stats are his stats. Just like last year you can make up all the injury excuses you want, but the fact remains those are the stats for that year. If he was so hampered by injury he shouldn't have been playing.

 

[Section 101]

Since watching the games it's obvious that Tyreke has the ball way less since the lineup change than before that, I think, it's not next best thing but rather least worst way to determine who has the ball the most and not really a valid argument.

Because dribbling the ball up the court is not actually in the offense until you get to the other side. So yes in that sense Evans has the ball less in his hands. While in the offense if you want Evans dribbling at the top standing there as counting as having the ball in his hands then yes it's dropped off a lot. If you want to count doing something with the ball then look at the usage rate since that's what it is tracking. Now it doesn't count the hockey assist and a few other things, but there are not stats in the NBA for those to track.

 

[Bricklayer]

Because dribbling the ball up the court is not actually in the offense until you get to the other side. So yes in that sense Evans has the ball less in his hands. While in the offense if you want Evans dribbling at the top standing there as counting as having the ball in his hands then yes it's dropped off a lot. If you want to count doing something with the ball then look at the usage rate since that's what it is tracking. Now it doesn't count the hockey assist and a few other things, but there are not stats in the NBA for those to track.

Usage rate doesn't count anything magical. The only stats it counts are FGA, FTA and TO. It then tries to adjust for team pace so you can compare players form different teams. That's it. But that doesn't tell you much at all. As far as usage rate is concerned a guy spotting up for 5 shots in the corner on kickouts has been used the same amount as a guy who creates 5 shots for himself up top. A guy leaking out on the break 5 times is "used" the same amount as a guy who posts up 5 times. And those are not at all the same thing. If Derrick Rose takes 10 shots in a game and Kyle Korver takes 10 shots in a game, they have not remotely been the same in their involvement. Does nto even add in assists, which could be used as a crude indicator of amount of time a player had the ball.

 

[Bricklayer]

How is it misleading? Those are still his stats for the year. If someone cares about specific games it's on them to go back and do the work for each game.

In 5 years when looking at the stats nobody is going to care what position a player was playing for the season. His stats are his stats. Just like last year you can make up all the injury excuses you want, but the fact remains those are the stats for that year. If he was so hampered by injury he shouldn't have been playing.

You know exactly how it was misleading. That was the whole point why you threw it out there. The debate is about how Reke's role has CHANGED, so you throw out a stat you know to include numbers from both before and after the change.

So so tiresome, and I have long wondered how you justify these tactics to yourself. If you acted with so little honor in your personal life nobody would want anything to do with you.

 

[Section 101]

Usage rate doesn't count anything magical. The only stats it counts are FGA, FTA and TO. It then tries to adjust for team pace so you can compare players form different teams. That's it. But that doesn't tell you much at all. As far as usage rate is concerned a guy spotting up for 5 shots in the corner on kickouts has been used the same amount as a guy who creates 5 shots for himself up top. A guy leaking out on the break 5 times is "used" the same amount as a guy who posts up 5 times. And those are not at all the same thing. If Derrick Rose takes 10 shots in a game and Kyle Korver takes 10 shots in a game, they have not remotely been the same in their involvement. Does nto even add in assists, which could be used as a crude indicator of amount of time a player had the ball.

Assists are in the formula. Take a reading comp class.

USG: Usage Rate is the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)

And if you had reading comprehension you would have seen I said even if you take the rate as an average the low side would still be higher than IT's.

And notice you didn't respond to Evans dribbling the ball for 15 seconds doing nothing.

 

[est.1999]

You know exactly how it was misleading. That was the whole point why you threw it out there. The debate is about how Reke's role has CHANGED, so you throw out a stat you know to include numbers from both before and after the change.

So so tiresome, and I have long wondered how you justify these tactics to yourself. If you acted with so little honor in your personal life nobody would want anything to do with you.

Hahaha exactly.

 

[Bricklayer]

Assists are in the formula. Take a reading comp class.



And if you had reading comprehension you would have seen I said even if you take the rate as an average the low side would still be higher than IT's.

And notice you didn't respond to Evans dribbling the ball for 15 seconds doing nothing.

interestinly the usage formula listed at hoopdata does not include the Ast bracket. I don't know whether that's an oversight, or a different formulation.