[Grades] Grades v. Lakers 3/15/2016

Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
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Boxscore

Stats: 36min 20pts (9-16, 0-2, 2-2) 8reb 3ast 3stl 1blk 1TO
Summary: an unusual game for him in that much of his scoring just came from running out and beating the only transition D worse than ours
Gay ( ) --

Stats: 32min 8pts (3-3, 0-0, 2-2) 7reb 0ast 1stl 1blk 0TO
Summary:kinda got out-worked/physicalled by Randle, but length and mobility was a significant factor in deterring the Lakers guards
Cauley Stein ( ) --

Stats: 36min 22pts (4-10, 1-1, 13-15) 8reb 3ast 3stl 4blk 3TO
Summary:odd game int hat he wasn't even looking to score early, and yet keyed the early blowout anyway with defensive plays. Thumped to the line repeatedly after half.
Cousins ( ) --

Stats: 41min 22pts (10-14, 1-2, 1-2) 1reb 6ast 1stl 0blk 5TO
Summary:75% of his game tonight was simply leaking out and beating the sluggish Lakers with quickness. May have has 22 before Boogie had 12.
Collison ( ) --

Stats: 37min 9pts (2-8, 1-5, 4-4) 6reb 12ast 4stl 0blk 6TO
Summary: repeatedly found holes in porous Lakers defense, and triggered the break by looking ahead to streakers and leakers. Too many TOs however.
Rondo ( ) --


Bench

Stats: 20min 11pts (5-12, 0-3, 1-3) 4reb 1ast 4stl 1blk 0TO
Summary:sometimes felt like a struggle, and threes are almost forces now, but attacked the rim for flips, and scooped up loose balls for steals
Casspi( ) --

Stats: 6min 0pt (0-2, 0-2, 0-0) 0reb 0ast 0stl 1blk 0TO
Summary:briefly tried the Curry experience again, but he missed both his shots and defense was neither special nor neeed
Curry ( ) --

Stats: 5min 0pts (0-1, 0-1, 0-0) 1reb 0ast 0stl 0blk 0TO
Summary:grabbed one skying D-board, that was the extent of his involvement as he went form spot starter to afterthought
Acy ( ) --

Stats: 12min 4pts (2-3, 0-0, 0-1) 4reb 0ast 0stl 0blk 0TO
Summary:played a good first half, in fact I think outscoring Boogie. Second half was ineffective as we struggled to find offense off the bench.
Koufos ( ) --

Stats: 15min 9pts (3-10, 1-2, 2-2) 2reb 1ast 1stl 0blk 1TO
Summary:jstill firing up off balance, and hence off target, jumpers off the bench. Along with Casspi counted on to be the bench scorers, and were mostly just bench forcers
Belinelli ( ) --

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I just feel like good things happen whenever WCS is on the floor. If and when this team ever gets good, WCS will be one of the main catalysts. It's also why I keep trying to convince myself we have to give Cuz one last season to put it together. WCS is the ABSOLUTE PERFECT front court mate for Cousins.
 
jcwkings said:
I just feel like good things happen whenever WCS is on the floor. If and when this team ever gets good, WCS will be one of the main catalysts. It's also why I keep trying to convince myself we have to give Cuz one last season to put it together. WCS is the ABSOLUTE PERFECT front court mate for Cousins.
Click to expand...

This is so true. They compliment each other perfectly.
Willies perfect running mate is a strong body that rebounds well, scores and can stretch the floor a bit
Cuz needs a mobile athletic defender beside him that can stretch the floor a bit on offense, a Ibaka type of player. Willie already does one of two very well and I bet it won't take long until he makes mid range jumpers regularly.

Good job Vlade.
 
biltalent said:
This is so true. They compliment each other perfectly.
Willies perfect running mate is a strong body that rebounds well, scores and can stretch the floor a bit
Cuz needs a mobile athletic defender beside him that can stretch the floor a bit on offense, a Ibaka type of player. Willie already does one of two very well and I bet it won't take long until he makes mid range jumpers regularly.

Good job Vlade.
Click to expand...

If they both "put it together" they instantly become the best two way front court pairing in the league, they have that potential together.
 
I also wonder if we would have been better off with a starting lineup of Rondo, Collison, Gay, WCS, Cousins from the beginning of the season. The quickness of WCS and Collison add some interesting things defensively. Collison is so quick and is a GREAT corner three shooter. He is a keeper, don't care what anyone else says, been one of our best players over the last two seasons.
 
jcwkings said:
I just feel like good things happen whenever WCS is on the floor. If and when this team ever gets good, WCS will be one of the main catalysts. It's also why I keep trying to convince myself we have to give Cuz one last season to put it together. WCS is the ABSOLUTE PERFECT front court mate for Cousins.
Click to expand...

Yep, and seeing BOTH of them blocking that shot was pure poetry in motion.
 
jcwkings said:
I just feel like good things happen whenever WCS is on the floor. If and when this team ever gets good, WCS will be one of the main catalysts. It's also why I keep trying to convince myself we have to give Cuz one last season to put it together. WCS is the ABSOLUTE PERFECT front court mate for Cousins.
Click to expand...

I looked up the +/- stats for Cousins sharing the floor with another player:

Cousins/Casspi: +2
Cousins/Rudy: +1.9
Cousins/Collison: +1.5
Cousins/Rondo: +1
Cousins/Ben: +0.7
Cousins/Acy: -0.2
Cousins/Curry: -0.3
Cousins/WCS: -0.3
Cousins/Koufos: -0.6
Cousins/Marco: -1.3

Note that the worst +/- comes with Cousins sharing the floor with another non-spacing big (and with Marco who's just bad at baketball), now this is something I found surprising since WCS is also generally a positive- here are the +/- stats for WCS sharing the floor with another player:

WCS/Curry: +1.8
WCS/Ben: +1.3
WCS/Rudy: +0.6
WCS/Collison: 0
WCS/Acy: 0
WCS/Cousins: -0.3
WCS/Casspi: -1.2
WCS/Rondo: -1.4
WCS/Koufos: -1.5
WCS/Marco: -2.1


So I'm not sure they are an ideal match.
 
Plus minus stats can't be all that reliable. If we where to believe them we should win every game Cousins plays in. We don't. Never have.
 
Amit149 said:
I looked up the +/- stats for Cousins sharing the floor with another player:

Cousins/Casspi: +2
Cousins/Rudy: +1.9
Cousins/Collison: +1.5
Cousins/Rondo: +1
Cousins/Ben: +0.7
Cousins/Acy: -0.2
Cousins/Curry: -0.3
Cousins/WCS: -0.3
Cousins/Koufos: -0.6
Cousins/Marco: -1.3

Note that the worst +/- comes with Cousins sharing the floor with another non-spacing big (and with Marco who's just bad at baketball), now this is something I found surprising since WCS is also generally a positive- here are the +/- stats for WCS sharing the floor with another player:

WCS/Curry: +1.8
WCS/Ben: +1.3
WCS/Rudy: +0.6
WCS/Collison: 0
WCS/Acy: 0
WCS/Cousins: -0.3
WCS/Casspi: -1.2
WCS/Rondo: -1.4
WCS/Koufos: -1.5
WCS/Marco: -2.1


So I'm not sure they are an ideal match.
Click to expand...


No disrespect intended but those numbers mean very little because Coach Karl.
 
If only we could play the Lakers more times this year, we would be a playoff team! And that's even factoring in George Karl as our coach!
 
jcwkings said:
I also wonder if we would have been better off with a starting lineup of Rondo, Collison, Gay, WCS, Cousins from the beginning of the season. The quickness of WCS and Collison add some interesting things defensively. Collison is so quick and is a GREAT corner three shooter. He is a keeper, don't care what anyone else says, been one of our best players over the last two seasons.
Click to expand...

Small sample size, but this has indeed been the Kings' most effective lineup this season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2016/lineups/#lineups-5-man::13
 
Amit149 said:
I looked up the +/- stats for Cousins sharing the floor with another player:

Cousins/Casspi: +2
Cousins/Rudy: +1.9
Cousins/Collison: +1.5
Cousins/Rondo: +1
Cousins/Ben: +0.7
Cousins/Acy: -0.2
Cousins/Curry: -0.3
Cousins/WCS: -0.3
Cousins/Koufos: -0.6
Cousins/Marco: -1.3

Note that the worst +/- comes with Cousins sharing the floor with another non-spacing big (and with Marco who's just bad at baketball), now this is something I found surprising since WCS is also generally a positive- here are the +/- stats for WCS sharing the floor with another player:

WCS/Curry: +1.8
WCS/Ben: +1.3
WCS/Rudy: +0.6
WCS/Collison: 0
WCS/Acy: 0
WCS/Cousins: -0.3
WCS/Casspi: -1.2
WCS/Rondo: -1.4
WCS/Koufos: -1.5
WCS/Marco: -2.1


So I'm not sure they are an ideal match.
Click to expand...

Not ideal yet, no. Willie still makes too many rookie mistakes (surprisingly, more on the defensive end, like giving perimeter shooters a bit too much distance etc) but to my eyes nearly all of them are the kind that are easily correctable with coaching and experience. Willie has also been in and out of the lineup too much to create real consistency due to injuries and coaching decisions.

He's also not where he needs to be in terms of his offense. When WCS can routinely knock down the 15-18 footer (or ideally even further) then he'll take pressure off Cousins. His passing can improve too but he's already very good about making good decisions and not turning the ball over. He's also shown some real flashes - last night's behind the back dribble in transition, his glide to the hoop for the left hand finish a few games ago etc that makes me think he has a higher offensive ceiling than I originally believed. Not that he'll be a 20 ppg scorer or anything, but I think he can be a guy who surprises teams at times with his offensive moves.

If Trill really is going to put in the work this summer as he claimed a couple days ago when venting his frustration then next season I think you'll see a much more potent PF/C duo.
 
Amit149 said:
I looked up the +/- stats for Cousins sharing the floor with another player:

Cousins/Casspi: +2
Cousins/Rudy: +1.9
Cousins/Collison: +1.5
Cousins/Rondo: +1
Cousins/Ben: +0.7
Cousins/Acy: -0.2
Cousins/Curry: -0.3
Cousins/WCS: -0.3
Cousins/Koufos: -0.6
Cousins/Marco: -1.3

Note that the worst +/- comes with Cousins sharing the floor with another non-spacing big (and with Marco who's just bad at baketball), now this is something I found surprising since WCS is also generally a positive- here are the +/- stats for WCS sharing the floor with another player:

WCS/Curry: +1.8
WCS/Ben: +1.3
WCS/Rudy: +0.6
WCS/Collison: 0
WCS/Acy: 0
WCS/Cousins: -0.3
WCS/Casspi: -1.2
WCS/Rondo: -1.4
WCS/Koufos: -1.5
WCS/Marco: -2.1


So I'm not sure they are an ideal match.
Click to expand...

One problem is that WCS's minutes have been so irregular that there's really no validity to those stats at this point. And as someone else said, there's the GK factor to consider. We don't have logical substitutions that make those kinds of stats more reliable. If you're going to look at WCS/Cousins, for example, you also have to look at who else is on the court at the time - since that has a significant bearing on how they play.

In cases like this, I'll take the eye test over some dry statistics. And my eyes tell me that WCS and Cousins have the potential to be incredible together - and that opinion is based on over 50 years of watching the NBA.
 
Don't rush WCS to the starting lineup. He's doing fine but his defensive decision making needs more experience off the bench.
 
VF21 said:
One problem is that WCS's minutes have been so irregular that there's really no validity to those stats at this point. And as someone else said, there's the GK factor to consider. We don't have logical substitutions that make those kinds of stats more reliable. If you're going to look at WCS/Cousins, for example, you also have to look at who else is on the court at the time - since that has a significant bearing on how they play.

In cases like this, I'll take the eye test over some dry statistics. And my eyes tell me that WCS and Cousins have the potential to be incredible together - and that opinion is based on over 50 years of watching the NBA.
Click to expand...

Love your eyes
 
I still feel like Marco didnt suddenly forget how to shoot a basketball, he has just been somewhat misused all season. He is not the type of player who can run those Klay/Ray Allen/Reggie/Redick full speed sprint thru screens or come off curls catch and shoot guys, especially against another teams starters. He never has been athletic enough to finish the sets we run for him and we have wasted so many possessions trying to feature him. He is a situational spot up shooter/floor spacer who can be effective with a faster paced 2nd unit as he was in San Antonio. Get a coach in here who actually maximizes his players talents/tailors a system to what his players do best instead of forcing them into a mismatched offense and I believe Marco will be just fine......slightly overpaid, but not completely useless.
 
Amit149 said:
I looked up the +/- stats for Cousins sharing the floor with another player:

Cousins/Casspi: +2
Cousins/Rudy: +1.9
Cousins/Collison: +1.5
Cousins/Rondo: +1
Cousins/Ben: +0.7
Cousins/Acy: -0.2
Cousins/Curry: -0.3
Cousins/WCS: -0.3
Cousins/Koufos: -0.6
Cousins/Marco: -1.3

Note that the worst +/- comes with Cousins sharing the floor with another non-spacing big (and with Marco who's just bad at baketball), now this is something I found surprising since WCS is also generally a positive- here are the +/- stats for WCS sharing the floor with another player:

WCS/Curry: +1.8
WCS/Ben: +1.3
WCS/Rudy: +0.6
WCS/Collison: 0
WCS/Acy: 0
WCS/Cousins: -0.3
WCS/Casspi: -1.2
WCS/Rondo: -1.4
WCS/Koufos: -1.5
WCS/Marco: -2.1


So I'm not sure they are an ideal match.
Click to expand...

I have been watching NBA basketball for over 50 years, and in my opinion, the plus/minus stat is the most worthless stat out there. I place zero value on it. I've watched too many games where a player will score 25 points, grab 12 boards, have 3 or 4 assists, and end up with a -12 value. Pure BS!!!!! Too much of the plus/minus value is placed on who your playing with, over which you have no control. When my eyes tell me one thing and a stat tells me the opposite, I'm going to question the stat's value.
 
King Baller said:
No disrespect intended but those numbers mean very little because Coach Karl.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure Coach Karl was the coach for each and every one of this duo's and the sample sizeis big enough if that what's you're worried about.

funkykingston said:
Not ideal yet, no. Willie still makes too many rookie mistakes (surprisingly, more on the defensive end, like giving perimeter shooters a bit too much distance etc) but to my eyes nearly all of them are the kind that are easily correctable with coaching and experience. Willie has also been in and out of the lineup too much to create real consistency due to injuries and coaching decisions.

He's also not where he needs to be in terms of his offense. When WCS can routinely knock down the 15-18 footer (or ideally even further) then he'll take pressure off Cousins. His passing can improve too but he's already very good about making good decisions and not turning the ball over. He's also shown some real flashes - last night's behind the back dribble in transition, his glide to the hoop for the left hand finish a few games ago etc that makes me think he has a higher offensive ceiling than I originally believed. Not that he'll be a 20 ppg scorer or anything, but I think he can be a guy who surprises teams at times with his offensive moves.

If Trill really is going to put in the work this summer as he claimed a couple days ago when venting his frustration then next season I think you'll see a much more potent PF/C duo.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of it, but the thing I'd like to note is it 's not like WCS has bad +/- figures, but his +/- with Cousins is below average for him which is pretty rare.

I think that Cousins alongside a "traditional" non-spacing big is just not a good fit and unless WCS improve his offensive game dramatically it will still give Cousins only limited space- I would love to see Cousins paired with a 3pt shooter at the 4 (like Ryan Anderson many are advocating for).

VF21 said:
One problem is that WCS's minutes have been so irregular that there's really no validity to those stats at this point. And as someone else said, there's the GK factor to consider. We don't have logical substitutions that make those kinds of stats more reliable. If you're going to look at WCS/Cousins, for example, you also have to look at who else is on the court at the time - since that has a significant bearing on how they play.

In cases like this, I'll take the eye test over some dry statistics. And my eyes tell me that WCS and Cousins have the potential to be incredible together - and that opinion is based on over 50 years of watching the NBA.
Click to expand...

There are enough minutes imo to rule out small sample size and the GK factor as you call it exists with all pairings.
If anything the weird subtitutions GK make help this stat since we get to see more variations and make it less dependent on the other guys on the floor with them (since they are getting some time with different groups).

Anyway the eye test is subjective I guess, and you may be right- I just think it's a weird fit.
 
bajaden said:
I have been watching NBA basketball for over 50 years, and in my opinion, the plus/minus stat is the most worthless stat out there. I place zero value on it. I've watched too many games where a player will score 25 points, grab 12 boards, have 3 or 4 assists, and end up with a -12 value. Pure BS!!!!! Too much of the plus/minus value is placed on who your playing with, over which you have no control. When my eyes tell me one thing and a stat tells me the opposite, I'm going to question the stat's value.
Click to expand...

It is extremely worthless in the perspective of one game... but in a big sample it makes sense (the fact that Marco ends up last in all of them while Cousins is first is proof enough ;)) and what I brought is exactly what you said- the stats for who they played with.

Now it has it's flaws, but it's suggesting that when you put a non-shooting big and Cousins together it's generally not a good idea- and I don't find that idea radical or different than what I would imagine happening logically.

Another example of that is that the trio of DMC-WCS-Rondo has a +/- of (-0.2), while the Rondo/Cousins pairing as a whole has (+1).

Oh and VF21 and you shold stop pulling rank on "young" people by claiming you watched 50 years of basketball, that's not nice and we can't match that :D.
 
kingjatt said:
I still feel like Marco didnt suddenly forget how to shoot a basketball, he has just been somewhat misused all season. He is not the type of player who can run those Klay/Ray Allen/Reggie/Redick full speed sprint thru screens or come off curls catch and shoot guys, especially against another teams starters. He never has been athletic enough to finish the sets we run for him and we have wasted so many possessions trying to feature him. He is a situational spot up shooter/floor spacer who can be effective with a faster paced 2nd unit as he was in San Antonio. Get a coach in here who actually maximizes his players talents/tailors a system to what his players do best instead of forcing them into a mismatched offense and I believe Marco will be just fine......slightly overpaid, but not completely useless.
Click to expand...

I agree with this:) Except for the overpaid part. After this next off season all previous contracts are going to look like bargains:eek::eek::eek:
 
IMO the roster has been misused all season. I think Boogie is left on the floor at times when he is gassed. And Koufos has been available most nights. Rudy at the 4 should be rare. Acy is a backup (but a good one and my favorite bench guy). Willie should have been starting at the 4 most of the season IMO. Most of the questions would have been answered by now. I think he has shown flashes of being very good defensively and some nice touch on the short range jumper. Willie just needs the reps.
 
funkykingston said:
Not ideal yet, no. Willie still makes too many rookie mistakes (surprisingly, more on the defensive end, like giving perimeter shooters a bit too much distance etc) but to my eyes nearly all of them are the kind that are easily correctable with coaching and experience. Willie has also been in and out of the lineup too much to create real consistency due to injuries and coaching decisions.

He's also not where he needs to be in terms of his offense. When WCS can routinely knock down the 15-18 footer (or ideally even further) then he'll take pressure off Cousins. His passing can improve too but he's already very good about making good decisions and not turning the ball over. He's also shown some real flashes - last night's behind the back dribble in transition, his glide to the hoop for the left hand finish a few games ago etc that makes me think he has a higher offensive ceiling than I originally believed. Not that he'll be a 20 ppg scorer or anything, but I think he can be a guy who surprises teams at times with his offensive moves.

If Trill really is going to put in the work this summer as he claimed a couple days ago when venting his frustration then next season I think you'll see a much more potent PF/C duo.
Click to expand...

I've said this before, but it bears repeating. Players that come out of the Kentucky system tend to surprise once in the NBA. Calapari tends to play players to where he thinks they best help the team win. In Cousins case, he wanted him in the post, and no where else. As a result, no one knew that Cousins had a decent jumpshot, or that he could handle the ball as well as he's shown. In his three years at Kentucky, I think I've seen WCS take a total of 6 or 7 jumpshots, but he made over half of them. Short sampling of course. I've seen him at the top of the free throw circle put the ball on the floor for two dribbles and dunk. In short, there were glimpses of what he might be able to do in the future.

I found it interesting that some thought he had bad hands, when he was a top rated wide receiver in high school. Bad hands and wide receiver don't go together. I haven't looked it up, but I would bet that he's shooting over 50% on his jump shots this season. What Willie hasn't had this season is much of an opportunity show off what he capable of on offense, and that's OK. He has plenty of time to polish his game, and it does need polish. But I firmly believe he already has a foundation to build on, and if he's able to do so, we could have something special. What Willie really needs to do is put on more muscle.
 
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