Grades v. Lakers 02/23

[bigbadred00]

Can't beat many teams when the Lakers never missed any jumpers. We didn't play well but they didn't miss a shot.

 

[playmaker0017]

Wow! That's an extremely generous grade for Bibby.

B-? Is that the going grade for a guy that jacks it up 4 seconds into the shot clock?

I mean he was 9-24 with 4 TOs! He refused to set people up in the post and seemed to rather enjoy the run down and jack up nonsense.

Not to mention, he continued to be the last person back on defense and let George go all-star on him.

I just don't understand an offense that has 3 players set picks for 1 player to get a half-baked shot! It completely negates the rest of the team.

The same goes for Ron Artest. I'm not bagging on him because he wasn't "Artest"-like on defense ... because he's too fat right now to pick up that assignment. He's not ready to stop Kobe. I'm knocking him because he's continually shooting poor shots. 6-17. That's bad. He may or may not be our best offensive option when he's healthy and fit (I don't think he is) ... but he's certainly not in the shape to be called upon to be jacking up ridiculous shots all night.

 

[nbrans]

Wow! That's an extremely generous grade for Bibby.

B-? Is that the going grade for a guy that jacks it up 4 seconds into the shot clock?

I mean he was 9-24 with 4 TOs! He refused to set people up in the post and seemed to rather enjoy the run down and jack up nonsense.

This is what I'm talking about. I would really like to see the Kings trade for Ray Allen in the offseason. If the Kings are going to have an outside shooter on offense, it's better to have one that can consistently hit outside shots, and then have an actual point guard who can control the flow of the offense and feed the post and make little things happen. Except for his ability to hit big shots, Bibby has really turned into Peja-lite. He's not bringing a whole lot to the table.

And agreed with everyone about Artest. It's really tough to criticize him because he's trying so hard on defense, and I thought he did a pretty good job on Kobe. But he really needs to stop shooting from outside until he gets his legs back.

 

[playmaker0017]

This is what I'm talking about. I would really like to see the Kings trade for Ray Allen in the offseason.

God, that'd be dynamite!

The simple fact is - and I know I'm going to get reamed by long-timers - but Bibby isn't THAT good. He's detrimental to this team when we run Bibby-centric offense or when he decides that puking up covered shots is smart. Where's the coach when he does that?!

Then Miller - he's a great piece, in the right system and left open. For instance, first half - the Lakers didn't cover him. Second half - they did and Miller shut down with token defense. I don't see the deal with why we all feel he's so non-expendable. He's a center that doesn't try on defense, doesn't get rebounds, can't hit anything but an open 20 foot jumper and can pass. Isn't that the OPPOSITE of what a center should bring?

I'd trade Miller/Bibby in a nano-second to pull in Ray Allen.

If the Kings are going to have an outside shooter on offense, it's better to have one that can consistently hit outside shots, and then have an actual point guard who can control the flow of the offense and feed the post and make little things happen.

Amen. I've been saying this for months now. You jsut said it in MUCH better terms.

Except for his ability to hit big shots, Bibby has really turned into Peja-lite. He's not bringing a whole lot to the table.

No, in fact I think he's bringing less than Peja because Peja wasn't expected to initiate an offense.

We can go back to the whole "well, we have Brad Miller for initiating the offense" minutia ... but that's a crutch. A PG NEEDS to be able to get other's involved.

And agreed with everyone about Artest. It's really tough to criticize him because he's trying so hard on defense, and I thought he did a pretty good job on Kobe. But he really needs to stop shooting from outside until he gets his legs back.

I can't believe the coach let's him continue to puke that stuff up. I wonder if it has to do with keeping him happy?

At the end of the day, I'd rather Artest take 15-18 shots, shoot sub-40% and try hard on defense ... than Bibby take 15-18 shots, shoot 40% and NOT try on defense.

 

[bigbadred00]

Even when they were playing defence, the Lakers would throw stuff up and it would magically hit. Nothing much you could do last night, the Kings were outplayed.

As much of a pure shooter as Ray Allen is, he really isn't the ideal 3 point shooter. He shoots below 40% from the stripe. You can get rid of Bibby, but your going to have to replace him with something. The team is going to have nights like this. Happens due to the mid-season trade and as we saw last night, Artest still isn't 100% game shape. He got tired. Kobe, who I hate, played well. And even when he didn't, he got lucky.

Whatever, we got 18 of 30 at home. We need Martin to shape up on the road. Hopefully Bonzi can get into game shape faster than we hope.

 

[playmaker0017]

Even when they were playing defence, the Lakers would throw stuff up and it would magically hit. Nothing much you could do last night, the Kings were outplayed.

That happens. I don't mind that.

The problem was effort. There was none.

As much of a pure shooter as Ray Allen is, he really isn't the ideal 3 point shooter.

Huh? Are we talking about the same Ray Allen?

The one that is shooting 40% this year and is a career 39% 3 point shooter? I guess Bibby at 37% this year and 37% for his career is "better"?

He shoots below 40% from the stripe.

Do you mean from behind the 3Pt line? Even if you do - I fail to see how 39.7% for his career is really worrisome when 40% is the baseline.

Plus, unlike a certain Bibby, he actually tries on defense.

You can get rid of Bibby, but your going to have to replace him with something.

Someone that wants to play PG and defense comes to mind.

 

[nbrans]

As much of a pure shooter as Ray Allen is, he really isn't the ideal 3 point shooter. He shoots below 40% from the stripe. You can get rid of Bibby, but your going to have to replace him with something. The team is going to have nights like this. Happens due to the mid-season trade and as we saw last night, Artest still isn't 100% game shape. He got tired. Kobe, who I hate, played well. And even when he didn't, he got lucky.

Don't meant to turn this into a Ray Allen thread, but Ray is shooting 40% from 3 this year while taking an astounding 8.6 threes per game. Usually when shots go up percentages go down, but he's having a career year.

I definitely agree with you that the Lakers were throwing up ridiculous shots that were going in and the Kings' defense wasn't terrible, but the offense was just putrid.

 

[bigbadred00]

Is 37% that much different from 40%? If your going to take on Allen, your also going to take his big contract, his age. I like Ray and all, but did you happen to take notice the team he's leading is the worst defensive club in the NBA. I guess it's not his fault but still. Also why would you go after Ray Allen when we have no place on this team for him. I guess Martin and Garcia would go straight into the trash?

We need a guy who doesn't make all that much and can bomb 3s. He doesn't have to be the best but we need a better threat. I just can't see spending all this money on a guy when our 2 youngest, and guys with bright futures essentially play the same position.

Martin has looked shaky on the road but he will eventually turn it around.

 

[bigbadred00]

Ray Allen does suit our shooter needs. But we have greater needs. A post defender is still going to be needed to win. If that eventually means moving Brad than so be it. You can win without a great point guard defender, it's very hard to win titles without a post defender. SAR isn't a bad one per se, but we need a guy who can block shots. The Lakers showed that you can get to the lane way too easily on us some nights.

Also, you were right, effort was bad. Don't know why either. They seemed to get demoralized after the early hot start (12-4 and then being down 14-12) and it never stopped. Hard to get pumped I guess when the Lakers are just throwing up shots and never missing. Yes, the Kings weren't playing their best D, but they were open as well, missing shots by the ton.

I think we got complacent. The Warriors game was a joke. The offence is going to struggle, it will still take a while for the players to get used to. You guys are going to have to understand, this year is going to be an adjustment period and we aren't going to get immediate results. We have gotten some immediate returns, but we are still not a win every night team, especially on the road. At home, we've been very good though. WE just gotta take the bumps, they hurt but Ron's going to have to shape up, and the team is going to have to gel.

GO KINGS!!!!!!

 

[playmaker0017]

Is 37% that much different from 40%?

No, but 39.7% is better than 37%. Especially when you consider the number of 3s he takes.

It's not even a contest to who is the better shooter and who brings more to the game between Bibby and Allen.

If your going to take on Allen, your also going to take his big contract, his age.

He's 30. It's not like he's ancient. He's got a few miles left, especially when you look at the way he plays. But, yes, his contract is a killer.

I guess Martin and Garcia would go straight into the trash?

For Ray Allen ... yeah, they'd have to enjoy the pine for a few years.

But, in the end, we're in a situation where Bibby is our best shooter and he plays like a SG. So, when he's on the court, we essentially are playing with 2 SGs (one of which couldn't defend against high schoolers). That needs to change. Either Bibby needs to play differently or we need a new PG.

 

[bigbadred00]

No, but 39.7% is better than 37%. Especially when you consider the number of 3s he takes.

It's not even a contest to who is the better shooter and who brings more to the game between Bibby and Allen.



He's 30. It's not like he's ancient. He's got a few miles left, especially when you look at the way he plays. But, yes, his contract is a killer.



For Ray Allen ... yeah, they'd have to enjoy the pine for a few years.

But, in the end, we're in a situation where Bibby is our best shooter and he plays like a SG. So, when he's on the court, we essentially are playing with 2 SGs (one of which couldn't defend against high schoolers). That needs to change. Either Bibby needs to play differently or we need a new PG.

Well you better ask Adelman to leave then. Bibby not being the ideal pg comes along with the high post offence that we run. If that's what it's going to take so be it.

Ray Allen is 31, making what 14 this year. He's a great player, but a trade with them doesn't make sense. Exactly what are we going to trade? They now have 2 pgs in Watson and Ridnour and I don't think there looking at other crappy defenders like Bibby and Brad to fill up their team when they are already the worst defensive team in the league. There would have to be a 3rd team.

I'm not saying Ray wouldn't be a great addition to any team. I just find it unfeasible. Now if you said let's add a guy like Mike Miller or someone of that caliber, who is a good player, not great but can shoot. Then it might be plausible. He could come off the bench.

 

[playmaker0017]

Ray Allen does suit our shooter needs. But we have greater needs. A post defender is still going to be needed to win. If that eventually means moving Brad than so be it.

I agree.

We need someone in the post that can play helpside defense. While Miller is a good player, I think what he brings is not what this team needs. With every move - we're becoming more traditional. In a tradiational set, Miller is out of sorts. He's also a terrible defender.

I know I'm Reef-centric, but of the two, I think Reef brings more. He's the more consistant scorer. He showed he can pass like Miller when asked to play that type of role. He also defends far better.

I think we got complacent. The Warriors game was a joke. The offence is going to struggle, it will still take a while for the players to get used to.

I think the stat that tells it all is 28. The number of points in the paint. This team won't win a lot of games relying on the jump shot.

it's why I've said that we need Reef in the game. You've GOT to control the game in the paint. Thomas/Miller don't give you that. Artest isn't in shape enough to give it to you. Bonzi is hurt and even when active isn't good enough to dominate the post.

We need a guy that can own the paint on 15-16 shots, in my opinion.

GO KINGS!!!!!!

Ditto.

 

[bigbadred00]

I also repeat it for the millionth time, when was the last time a pure shooter was the best player on a team that won the title. Unless Ron is better than Ray (maybe), then a team with Ray being our best player doesn't seem to translate well in the NBA.

If were going to give up on Bibby and Brad, let's get a guy like KG who fits our needs and gives us something all NBA title teams need. A post player who can defend, a superstar (Ron is a half super star, I guess), and a periennel MVP candidate who can pass. Ray Allen I just don't think would be the right direction for the team, unless at the same time we got a great post defender. Then again, 3 superstars on 1 team, doesn't seem to work either. I'd personally like to have KG and Artest, a good passing PG, a hard working PF and a low level shooter at the 2. I think that's ideal.

 

[nbrans]

I also repeat it for the millionth time, when was the last time a pure shooter was the best player on a team that won the title.

Chauncey Billups?

 

[playmaker0017]

Well you better ask Adelman to leave then. Bibby not being the ideal pg comes along with the high post offence that we run. If that's what it's going to take so be it.

Last night, I almost wanted to kick my television.

When the second unit came in, and the lineup that does so well (Garcia, Martin, Artest, Reef, Thomas) decided they needed to change their style and play "Princeton" ... I wanted to scream. They did their best work by being creative and flowing. Last night they played stagnant.

I'm going on record to say - "DOWN WITH THE PRINCETON!" Our personell isn't going to get maximum benefits from that offense.

Ray Allen is 31, making what 14 this year. He's a great player, but a trade with them doesn't make sense. Exactly what are we going to trade?

You're probably right. Ray is up there and he's making a butt-load of money. You're right, and when you're right, you're right.

 

[bigbadred00]

I think the stat that tells it all is 28. The number of points in the paint. This team won't win a lot of games relying on the jump shot.

it's why I've said that we need Reef in the game. You've GOT to control the game in the paint. Thomas/Miller don't give you that. Artest isn't in shape enough to give it to you. Bonzi is hurt and even when active isn't good enough to dominate the post.

We need a guy that can own the paint on 15-16 shots, in my opinion.

They really guarded the paint hard last night. I was actually a little impressed. Their help D on Artest was excellent most of the game. The Lakers looked like a team last night. Odom was passing the ball, Kobe was hitting the rock, and the role players were doing what they had to do. Almost made me sick, ROFL. I guess once in a while, the Lakers actually show up. Will get them back at Arco.

 

[playmaker0017]

I also repeat it for the millionth time, when was the last time a pure shooter was the best player on a team that won the title.

I don't think that would be an issue. The real question is: When was the last time a pure shooter CARRIED a team to the title?

In this case - you'd have other pieces. Reef - a solid post player. Artest - all around game.

Allen wouldn't have to carry the team. He'd be able to play ball and let the game come to him. He'd be arguably the best player, but he wouldn't be forced to carry us.

But, like you said - he is older and he's making more money than god. So, I'm with you on this one.

 

[LMM]

The whole team had a horrible game.

I don't think the lakers scored a point that wasn't inside the paint, a three pointer [which they shot REALLY WELL :| ], or a free throw in the first half. They were getting ALL DUNKS and LAYUPS ! The lane was WIDE OPEN. When one man got beat, no one helped on defense. It was just painful to watch.

Anyway, Bibby was not the reason we lost tonight. If anything, he was one of, if not the main reasons we were still in it until they blew the game open in the 4th. At least he showed that he wanted to win, he just didn't have it that night. Also, it was nice to see him deliver some hard fouls. The whole team should really start doing that instead of giving free passes to the lane.

The loss definitely hurts us, but it's only one game. We have 2 games left against the Lakers. We can still do this, but we are in a tough position right now.

Go Kings!

 

[Bricklayer]

Wow! That's an extremely generous grade for Bibby.

B-? Is that the going grade for a guy that jacks it up 4 seconds into the shot clock?

I stand by it. He competed. Most of the rest of the guys apparently left their testicles behind when they got out of bed. Cisco was the only other King who could have had even an outside shot at fathering children yesterday.

 

[nbrans]

I stand by it. He competed. Most of the rest of the guys apparently left their testicles behind when they got out of bed. Cisco was the only other King who could have had even an outside shot at fathering children yesterday.

See, I find this kind of masculine posturing really unfortunate. I think there are ways of defending the grade rather than resorting to imagery that would make Sam Cassel a little too happy.

Your grades are almost always spot on, I can't remember the last time I took issue, but this is one time that I think you might have missed the mark. I saw a lot of competing out there (KT got 13 rebounds) and a lot of bad shots. Just because Bibby took more shots I don't know if it meant that he was "competing" anymore than the rest of his teammates. He was just crappy like everyone else, not worthy of special notice.

 

[playmaker0017]

I stand by it. He competed. Most of the rest of the guys apparently left their testicles behind when they got out of bed. Cisco was the only other King who could have had even an outside shot at fathering children yesterday.

That made me laugh!

Not in a sarcastic way either. That was just pure humor!

Classic!

I disagree with the rating nonetheless ... but that was still just funny.

 

[kennadog]

No one played well last night. But to me, Bibby was the only one looking like he really wanted to win (with Cisco in second). I agree with Brick. I think it is because he is the only one left from the team who almost made it all the way. He has not forgotten the rivalry, and has not forgotten how Kings fans feel about the Lakers.

I must pause to say that fans who don't live in California may not realize that the hatred between SoCal and NoCal goes back decades and runs very deep, way beyond whose team wins. Sports just allows us to express it metaphorically. (I've lived in both parts of the State.)

 

[Merdiesel]

That was a horrible game. Bonzi needs to get healthy already! I was not expecting such a horrible effort from Sac, espeicially after stomping the Warriors like that. ZERO CONFIDENCE. Letting that scrub Devean George dunk on us like that made me sick. What a shame.


oh, and I still have faith that we're gonna take that 8TH spot. F*ck you Barkley!

 

[Warhawk]

I must pause to say that fans who don't live in California may not realize that the hatred between SoCal and NoCal goes back decades and runs very deep, way beyond whose team wins. Sports just allows us to express it metaphorically. (I've lived in both parts of the State.)

So have I, and you are absolutely right.

Let's just turn off the tap and have a litlle fun with them!

Johnny: [plugging back in the runway lights] Just kidding.

 

[venom_7]

ron posting is what worked for us. kobe started the 4th with 4 fouls. ron didn't post again in the 4th, and nobody atatcked kobe with the ball. Ron needs to quit playing around the perimeter in games like this where he is guarded too well. I don't really have a problem with him taking the open 3, but he needs to stop trying to create for himself. He can get his 3 (point plays) ont he block or he can kick it to Bibby. and Martin sucked last night. He missed 3 wide open 3's and then refused to shoot the open shot for the rest of the game.

 

[venom_7]

God, that'd be dynamite!

I'd trade Miller/Bibby in a nano-second to pull in Ray Allen.



Amen. I've been saying this for months now. You jsut said it in MUCH better terms.



No, in fact I think he's bringing less than Peja because Peja wasn't expected to initiate an offense.

We can go back to the whole "well, we have Brad Miller for initiating the offense" minutia ... but that's a crutch. A PG NEEDS to be able to get other's involved.



I can't believe the coach let's him continue to puke that stuff up. I wonder if it has to do with keeping him happy?

At the end of the day, I'd rather Artest take 15-18 shots, shoot sub-40% and try hard on defense ... than Bibby take 15-18 shots, shoot 40% and NOT try on defense.

Ugg this makes me sick. Bibby had a decent game. He wasn't the one jacking shots up 4 seconds into the clock. Artest was. Uh-oh, we lost a game, better trade him too. 2 of Bibby's TO's were the result of great defensive plays by George. Brad Miller is one of a kind. You won't find another center like him. I think what we need to do is bring in a banger that will make up for Miller's weaknesses. ie. Big Ben (way unrealistic, especially since artest is here). The truth is we need to play on the road like we do at home. No one needs to be traded for Ray Allen, especially since you would be on his nuts 2 months into the season for shooting too much. I am fine with Mike taking 24-30 shots, especially when he is on. As long as it doesn't hurt the effectiveness of the offense. What did hurt the effectiveness of the offense was Martin/Artest missing WIDE open shots.

 

[Kingsgurl]

I am fine with Mike taking 24-30 shots, especially when he is on. As long as it doesn't hurt the effectiveness of the offense

I'm fine with Mike shooting, too, but in that game there was absolutely ZERO offensive cohesiveness. Where's the ball movement? Where is looking to set up team-mates? Too much one on one, too much dribbling, bad shot selection, just really painful to watch, IMO. Of course it's not all Mike, or Ron and I'm not 'bagging' on either of them, just hoping the team learns to play as one offensively soon.

 

[VF21]

I'm amazed Ron was even still on the court after the abuse he took last night. Hit in the face HARD twice and then that pick?

Let's be honest. If that had happened to our former small forward, he would have been laid out prone on the floor, with paramedics in attendance, as they carried him out on a back board and straight to the emergency room of the local hospital. (Not bagging on Peja as much as just putting things into a bit of perspective...)

Ron was smothered the whole game by the Lakers. They clearly keyed on him and made his night horrible...

What frustrated me was the number of times Artest was inside, double or even triple-teamed, and there were NO purple jerseys in the vicinity to ball him out.

Yes, this was an ugly loss but what worries me is that it looks as though this current assemblage of players just might be falling into the same bad habit the old ones had. This time, however, instead of "Let Webb do it" it's starting to become "Let Ron do it."

That, IMHO, needs to be slapped out of everyone with a name other than "ARTEST" on their back right now. Post haste.

 

[bcfy]

B-? Is that the going grade for a guy that jacks it up 4 seconds into the shot clock?

I mean he was 9-24 with 4 TOs! He refused to set people up in the post and seemed to rather enjoy the run down and jack up nonsense.

About those jack up 3's....well I don't really like it, but that's a new play that many teams adapt this year...regardless of their 3pt FG%:
Kobe does it .352%
T-Mac does it .299%
Nash does it .421%
Areanas does it .347%
Billups does it .422%
Lebron does it .342%
Allen does it .400%
Kidd does it .375%
Carter does it .354%
Francis does it .288%
And Bibby .369%

I think there are more players doing it too, but I haven't seen enough of other teams....the list just indicate those I actually saw, doing the so called "jacking-up 3's with 4 seconds into the shot clock" frequently.

I am sure Bibby has practiced this type of shot thousnands times before he actually uses it in game. Rather you like it or not, many players do it becasue:
1) they can make it
2) to surprise the defender before any defense is set up
3) help get going
4) down big and so just make a gamble
5) on fire, feel like everything would fall

Not really the best shot you want, but I will take it if no one else can make a shot. (not to say he has made many of those this year)

 

[whozit]

So have I, and you are absolutely right.

Let's just turn off the tap and have a litlle fun with them!

Johnny: [plugging back in the runway lights] Just kidding.

You must be mistaken. You don't turn the lights back on, you close the freeways while your at it, for good measure of course. No reason to it half-heartly.