[Grades] Grades v. Knicks 2/12/2014

[whozit]

I watched the game with no expectations. Well I did expect them to lose, but that has more to do with the recent downturn of the offense and the poor play on the road. I was pleasantly surprised to see that they DID have some fight left in them ! I believe Jimmer increased his trade value, if only a little. Some team may take a chance on a guard who isnt afraid to go on a one man run. I think Marcus Thorton is a throw in at best in any trade. And I truly believe this ownership group is looking to make some noise. I am open to any trade as long as Big Cuz and Gay are not part of the deal. Everyone else can be replaced.

I honestly believe that the team came out in the 3rd and realized none of them were in danger of missing their flight to the All Star Game (except Ben.... but he seemed distracted...)

I don't think this is what you meant, but hopefully they don't make a trade just to make a trade. The two they have made since the start of the season have had decent (Williams)/excellent (Gay) returns.

 

[Hadlowe]

The only way that makes sense in terms of getting most success from Jimmer, is if he can play with a point guard who is truly interested in looking for him as a top priority. Getting him in a flow and rhythm with multiple shots.

The only way that currently happens on a consistent basis, is if he plays with Ray McCallum

Long-term, there are two roles Jimmer can play in the NBA where he is a substantial positive impact guy for a team.

1) Third guard in a tight rotation with at least one other ballhandler, also known as the Steve Kerr role.

2) Starting guard for a veteran team where there are playmakers in at least 2 other positions and solid team defense overall. Also known as the John Paxson role.

In those situations, even if he isn't scoring, he is drawing defenses further out of the paint and making room for their playmakers. Barring one of those two scenarios, he is a bench sharpshooter. He really is a liability on defense, although in a solid team scheme, he can be covered.

On the Kings, there just aren't the wing pieces to use him well, and so the team is shoehorning him in as the playmaker with the bench. That's not a horrible role for him, but it doesn't play to his strengths.

Starting him at the 2 isn't going to solve anything for the team as our 2-guards aren't getting many shots up anyway, and his defense, while not much worse than Thornton/BMac, isn't any better.

 

[peacelate]

it's not about whether or not he was criticised, but rather if he was criticised unfairly. I don't think he was, and while a lot of the bashing IT gets around these parts some times is entirely over the top (rooting for another team's player to beat him up? seriously?), pointing out that he left too much time on the clock for his last attempt isn't exactly that.

Criticizing IT for taking the last shot leaving time on the clock is fair, but had it been any other player doing the exact same thing while still making the shot, I doubt anybody would be complaining.

 

[jalfa]

Long-term, there are two roles Jimmer can play in the NBA where he is a substantial positive impact guy for a team.

1) Third guard in a tight rotation with at least one other ballhandler, also known as the Steve Kerr role.

2) Starting guard for a veteran team where there are playmakers in at least 2 other positions and solid team defense overall. Also known as the John Paxson role.

In those situations, even if he isn't scoring, he is drawing defenses further out of the paint and making room for their playmakers. Barring one of those two scenarios, he is a bench sharpshooter. He really is a liability on defense, although in a solid team scheme, he can be covered.

On the Kings, there just aren't the wing pieces to use him well, and so the team is shoehorning him in as the playmaker with the bench. That's not a horrible role for him, but it doesn't play to his strengths.

Starting him at the 2 isn't going to solve anything for the team as our 2-guards aren't getting many shots up anyway, and his defense, while not much worse than Thornton/BMac, isn't any better.

so he's going to Chicago, is what you're saying (note: that might actually be a pretty decent fit for him)

Criticizing IT for taking the last shot leaving time on the clock is fair, but had it been any other player doing the exact same thing while still making the shot, I doubt anybody would be complaining.

maybe. IT's shot selection is clearly under more scrutiny than most. however, it's not as if Henkel ripped his head off or anything. he specifically said it might've been a bad shot if it didn't go in that's a line most anybody would get in that scenario, I suspect.

 

[Hadlowe]

Criticizing IT for taking the last shot leaving time on the clock is fair, but had it been any other player doing the exact same thing while still making the shot, I doubt anybody would be complaining.

I'm one of the few remaining Jimmer fans left on the board, and I still criticized him for taking some of those very long threes in the game thread that he made. I yell at Boogie when he takes a stupid contested 18 footer instead of going around his defender to get to the rim and draw a foul, or when he shoots over a double-team instead of kicking out to an open Thornton (yes, that Thornton). I yell at Gay when he hoists shots one foot inside the three point line. Dumb play is dumb play, regardless of outcome.

Stop making a maniac out of me.

 

[Glenn]

Long-term, there are two roles Jimmer can play in the NBA where he is a substantial positive impact guy for a team.

1) Third guard in a tight rotation with at least one other ballhandler, also known as the Steve Kerr role.

2) Starting guard for a veteran team where there are playmakers in at least 2 other positions and solid team defense overall. Also known as the John Paxson role.

In those situations, even if he isn't scoring, he is drawing defenses further out of the paint and making room for their playmakers. Barring one of those two scenarios, he is a bench sharpshooter. He really is a liability on defense, although in a solid team scheme, he can be covered.

On the Kings, there just aren't the wing pieces to use him well, and so the team is shoehorning him in as the playmaker with the bench. That's not a horrible role for him, but it doesn't play to his strengths.

Starting him at the 2 isn't going to solve anything for the team as our 2-guards aren't getting many shots up anyway, and his defense, while not much worse than Thornton/BMac, isn't any better.

This is one of the more optimistic notes so undoubtedly the pro-IT crowd will dump on you because saying something decent about a pg is interpreted as a shot at IT. I agree with you. If we have Outlaw at $3 mil, Jimmer is worth $3 mil. BTW, he doesn't make that much now although extending his contract would put him in that range. What we saw yesterday is what he did regularly at BYU. He understands the game and can shoot. He is a solid locker room guy. There is value in all that.

CruzDude wondered when he would be given a shot as a starter. Given we have no defensively inclined pgs, it isn't like we are giving up anything on defense. I always wonder what there is to be lost. Is the coach afraid we'll be the worst team in the Western Conference if we try that? Some of us would like to see IT as 6th man and the IT complaining would stop. That's no fun, is it?

 

[jalfa]

This is one of the more optimistic notes so undoubtedly the pro-IT crowd will dump on you because saying something decent about a pg is interpreted as a shot at IT. I agree with you. If we have Outlaw at $3 mil, Jimmer is worth $3 mil. BTW, he doesn't make that much now although extending his contract would put him in that range. What we saw yesterday is what he did regularly at BYU. He understands the game and can shoot. He is a solid locker room guy. There is value in all that.

CruzDude wondered when he would be given a shot as a starter. Given we have no defensively inclined pgs, it isn't like we are giving up anything on defense. I always wonder what there is to be lost. Is the coach afraid we'll be the worst team in the Western Conference if we try that? Some of us would like to see IT as 6th man and the IT complaining would stop. That's no fun, is it?

Outlaw is not worth anything near $3M, though.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Criticizing IT for taking the last shot leaving time on the clock is fair, but had it been any other player doing the exact same thing while still making the shot, I doubt anybody would be complaining.

i would critisize absolutely anyone for that play. You don't take that shot with 6+ seconds on the shot clock still, you just DONT. wanna see how to properly manage the clock in situations like that? watch the end of the Warriors - Heat game from last night

 

[Glenn]

i would critisize absolutely anyone for that play. You don't take that shot with 6+ seconds on the shot clock still, you just DONT. wanna see how to properly manage the clock in situations like that? watch the end of the Warriors - Heat game from last night

In the game thread I suggested that clock management was crucial and I think I typed it at around the three minute mark. 1, 2, or 3 is not crucial but I typed it in plenty of time when I thought the mind set of the team had to change.

 

[Glenn]

Outlaw is not worth anything near $3M, though.

What's your point?

 

[jalfa]

What's your point?

that neither is worth $3M.

 

[Glenn]

that neither is worth $3M.

True.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Criticizing IT for taking the last shot leaving time on the clock is fair, but had it been any other player doing the exact same thing while still making the shot, I doubt anybody would be complaining.

That is probably true. The reason is that if any other player did it, we wouldn't really have any reason to believe that they would make the same decision again. In other words, they would acknowledge it as "not the best" for the team and attempt to make an adjustment

 

[VF21]

...Stats: 27min 24pts (9-14, 6-8, 0-0) 0reb 2ast 2stl 0blk 1TO
Fredette ( A+ ) -- We wouldn't have won this game without Jimmer and it easily could of gotten ugly as the same pattern of uninspired play continued. Instead out of nowhere Jimmer shows up with a career night and brings us back from the edge with a all around offensive display to begin the second quarter. Had a nice drive to get things started. Then he gets into his defender and creates some space for the nice fade away from about 10 feet out. With his confidence going hits a pull up three on the the three on one break. Follows that up a short time later with another pull three and then to quote my notes hit "another ******* three". Not satisfied decided to take it to the basket once again for another little floater. A quick game changing 6/6 for 15 pts in just under six minutes. At this point not wanting to appear selfish he got inside on a pretty little spins move in lane that resulted in a kick out three to a wide open Gay. Once the starters came back in slowed down a bit, but you can't take anything a way from him. A game changer and impressive to say the least. Played all of the fourth and I believe all of overtime. Hit big shots and played well with the game on the line. Hit a three early in the quarter then missed a open three off of a nice find by Cousins out of the post. In the final few minutes got his number called off a couple of screens and knocked down the three. Followed that up with a one of his few forces on the night. Luckily he got a chance to redeem himself and nailed the step back three with under two minutes left to cap off a career night with 24 points. Showed up with the energy we desperately needed early and then finished it off with a couple of big time threes to help us get to overtime. I'll kindly label myself a Jimmer skeptic, but even I couldn't help but feel a bit of Jimmer mania as he together a hell of a game in front of his friends and family in MSG. --Henkel

Very nice review. I know you're a tough grader, so I think it's a testament to Jimmer that you gave him the A+ (with which I totally agree). If that was the Jimmer we could hope to see every night, I'd be leading the torch and pitchfork crowd to make sure we kept him. A part of me still wants to see him in a Kings uniform, for a variety of reasons, but among them the almost certain knowledge that he'll torch us every single time he plays us if he goes elsewhere.

 

[Henkel]

Not that it matters but I enjoy watching Isaiah. I'm trying to be objective yet critical with theses grades, not feed one sides narrative. If he runs out the clock and puts up a shot, even a terrible shot, with the clock expiring the Knicks would of had two and change to get a three instead of just under eight seconds. He hit the shot so it's not a issue, wasn't trying to make it one, but it is worth mentioning.

 

[VF21]

Not that it matters but I enjoy watching Isaiah. I'm trying to be objective yet critical with theses grades, not feed one sides narrative. If he runs out the clock and puts up a shot, even a terrible shot, with the clock expiring the Knicks would of had two and change to get a three instead of just under eight seconds. He hit the shot so it's not a issue, wasn't trying to make it one, but it is worth mentioning.

You and the rest of the grading consortium do an incredible job and I, for one, thank you. I also continually wonder how Brickie was able to do it all by himself without going totally insane. Keep up the good work.

 

[Bricklayer]

"Actually hit a jumper to put this one away, although he took it with too much time on the clock especially considering we had the lead. Luckily he made it and luckily the anti Isaiah crowd can take the night off."--Henkel

Henkel, there is no need to apologize for IT success. The above comment reads as:

Teacher's comment: You got the answer right; I wish you would have done it sooner than when your time was up; thankfully you were lucky in getting the answer right.

As long as I don't have to take a class from that grader, we're good. LOL.

No it reads like: got the answer right, but the work was wrong. Hence not replicable.

 

[Henkel]

You and the rest of the grading consortium do an incredible job and I, for one, thank you. I also continually wonder how Brickie was able to do it all by himself without going totally insane. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for that. Doing these things really does give you another level of appreciation for all the work Brick has put in over the years.

 

[Chubbs]

"Actually hit a jumper to put this one away, although he took it with too much time on the clock especially considering we had the lead. Luckily he made it and luckily the anti Isaiah crowd can take the night off."--Henkel

Henkel, there is no need to apologize for IT success. The above comment reads as:

Teacher's comment: You got the answer right; I wish you would have done it sooner than when your time was up; thankfully you were lucky in getting the answer right.

As long as I don't have to take a class from that grader, we're good. LOL.

Is Henkel not correct?

If one does the wrong thing and still succeeds, it doesn't mean you excuse the part where it was wrong. Unless you think our pg manages the end of games perfectly and this play was some abberation. If you do, I suggest you look at our record really closely and rethink that.

 

[Hadlowe]

No it reads like: got the answer right, but the work was wrong. Hence not replicable.

Or, in video metaphor form

 

[Warhawk]

You and the rest of the grading consortium do an incredible job and I, for one, thank you. I also continually wonder how Brickie was able to do it all by himself without going totally insane. Keep up the good work.

That bit about Brick IS an assumption, you know.

 

[jalfa]

somewhat relevant: did you guys know that the NYK guards are known as the Friendly Alliance of Really Terrible Defenders of Opposing Guards (for short: FARTDOG) amongst their fans? and that:

Chris Herring @HerringWSJ
Fredette was the fifth player to log career-high against Knicks this season. Belinelli, Lance Stephenson, Evan Turner & Brandon Knight, too.

to which I can only say:

also:

 

[Kingster]

it's always fair to criticise a player for bad shot clock management, regardless of whether or not the shot went in.

No it reads like: got the answer right, but the work was wrong. Hence not replicable.

Replicable? What are we talking about here, a controlled experiment? Are you a science teacher now?

I like it that IT "actually" hit the jumper to put the game away. As if he could have done it non-actually? Or, that he was "lucky" he made it. How lucky was it? Once in a lifetime lucky? Is luck factored into our controlled experiment? WOW, with praise like that he might as well sign it: Bricklayer.

 

[Hadlowe]

somewhat relevant: did you guys know that the NYK guards are known as the Friendly Alliance of Really Terrible Defenders of Opposing Guards (for short: FARTDOG) amongst their fans? and that:

Chris Herring @HerringWSJ
Fredette was the fifth player to log career-high against Knicks this season. Belinelli, Lance Stephenson, Evan Turner & Brandon Knight, too.

to which I can only say:

also:

When I get down about how the Kings are playing, I look at how the Knicks are doing and it brings a big old smile to my face. Just think, they have to pay Felton for 2 more years after this one, and they can't even look forward to the draft.

 

[Hadlowe]

Replicable? What are we talking about here, a controlled experiment? Are you a science teacher now?

I like it that IT "actually" hit the jumper to put the game away. As if he could have done it non-actually? Or, that he was "lucky" he made it. How lucky was it? Once in a lifetime lucky? Is luck factored into our controlled experiment? WOW, with praise like that he might as well sign it: Bricklayer.

For pity's sake, I can't decide if you're being obtuse willfully or just don't comprehend how time works. The game was already put away, as in, zero chance that the Knicks could come back and win it at that point with proper execution. IT risked that guarantee by hoisting an early, contested, low percentage long two off the dribble in isolation with ten seconds on the clock.

Now, let's look at the percentages on that shot. IT makes 38% of his pull-up jumpers overall, but only 33% of his pull-up threes (despite taking three of those per game), meaning he makes 43% of his mid-range jumpers. Pretty good, right? Well, if you look at his shot chart, you'll see that he makes far more of his jumpers on the left half of the court than the right half, which makes sense because he is left-handed. He actually shoots about 30% from the area he took the shot at the end of the game. That means that he is going to miss that shot far, far more than he makes it.

The fact that it was a long two is going to mean a higher probability of a long rebound, leading to a runout and open transition three for one of the most clutch finishers in NBA history.

It was the wrong decision to make, but had a good result because he knocked down the shot.

I hope Malone is more patient than I am because IT, Jimmer, Cousins or any other King would be running ladders for days for risking giving away a win on a selfish, dumb shot like that.

Edited to add stats about just what a bad shot that shot was.

 

[jalfa]

Replicable? What are we talking about here, a controlled experiment? Are you a science teacher now?

I like it that IT "actually" hit the jumper to put the game away. As if he could have done it non-actually? Or, that he was "lucky" he made it. How lucky was it? Once in a lifetime lucky? Is luck factored into our controlled experiment? WOW, with praise like that he might as well sign it: Bricklayer.

hold on, are you implying that trying to be objective is somehow ridiculous and worth being sneered at?

 

[Bricklayer]

Replicable? What are we talking about here, a controlled experiment? Are you a science teacher now?

I like it that IT "actually" hit the jumper to put the game away. As if he could have done it non-actually? Or, that he was "lucky" he made it. How lucky was it? Once in a lifetime lucky? Is luck factored into our controlled experiment? WOW, with praise like that he might as well sign it: Bricklayer.

If you ACTUALLY hit a dumb shot, you still did the wrong thing. Same way as each and every time IT pulls up for one of those asinine threes in transition with nobody underneath I want to throw something at the TV.

So, you get part credit for pulling it off. But don't ever try to do it that way again or I'll put the ball in the hands of somebody who'll make the percentage play.

 

[King-Da-Yah]

Wow Melo really can lull people to sleep with his game! Usually its defenders though!

somewhat relevant: did you guys know that the NYK guards are known as the Friendly Alliance of Really Terrible Defenders of Opposing Guards (for short: FARTDOG) amongst their fans? and that:

Chris Herring @HerringWSJ
Fredette was the fifth player to log career-high against Knicks this season. Belinelli, Lance Stephenson, Evan Turner & Brandon Knight, too.

to which I can only say:

also:

 

[Hadlowe]

Just for fun and giggles, the following is the shot chart for Cousins and Thomas.

 

[kupman]

Not that it matters but I enjoy watching Isaiah..

FWIW, it totally matters - to me at least. I am not a GM and I do not portray one on my television show. I am a fan and want to be entertained. IT is entertaining to me. I would love it if he hit a game winning shot sometime and ran to center court and yelled to the fans - "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!"