[Grades] Grades v. Knicks 12/27/2014

[fansinceday1]

When did Vivek and the FO say that they no longer valued good defense? I have heard them say that they want a more widen open and fluid offense, but when did they say that they do not want good defense? Of course, when you play a faster paced game, all scores tend to increase as the number of possessions for both teams increase. However, you can still play great defense with a wide open offense.

I do not think that the FO would disagree with what DMC said last night. All would agree that the D needs to improve I think. Plus, did anyone notice that under this new style last night, DMC not only looked liked an All-Star, he also looked liked like an MVP candidate. Extremely impressive for someone who has been sick.

I am cautiously excited and enjoying it.

Can you play their preferred brand of basketball AND play defense? Especially with our roster? I don't think so. It's one or the other and if we take PDA at his word, he wants to see excitement. He wants flare. Defense is not exciting to the average fan.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Was at the game. This team disgusts me right now. (outside of watching the Amazing boogie). But man they are just a wreck out there. 28 other teams probably would have beat us last night

 

[pshn80]

Where are you getting that from?

Where do we stand in the league?

 

[HereWeBoogie]

"Every game, going into the game with the mindset of being a defensive team, like we used to" -Boogie

"We have to get back to being our old team"

"We gotta get back to playing that type of basketball, as of right now we're taking steps back"

"We gotta get back to the right style of basketball, the right style for us to play"



Pete and Vivek are gonna screw around and lose a franchise player

 

[pshn80]

The problem, and most fans recognize this, Cuz recognizes it, Rudy probably also as well as many in our locker room, is that we're not going to be in a good position to beat BK, or Boston, or Minn by giving up 115 PPG, let alone a team like OKC when we return from the trip.

A win against one of the worst teams in the league in NY, which we barely held onto while going to OT and giving up 135 doesn't hide that issue, which is an issue that makes this team far less competitive.

You don't get your card stamped on the way in at Brooklyn, you play the game. That determines how many points you allow. And, as an aside, that's twice now that you say we allowed 135 last night. Reality is bad enough.

 

[Sac.Kings]

Where do we stand in the league?

We are 19th, not 23rd. Not really fair to pin that on Cousins, who has missed 11 games, 9 of which have been losses. With him, we are 11-8, good for a .58 winning percentage, which would put us around 12-13th in the league.
http://espn.go.com/nba/standings/_/group/1

 

[The_Jamal]

Everyone is suffering from a serious case of sample size bias. We haven't had enough games in ANY system at full strength this season to really make determinations whether we were legit or not. Improvements? Absolutely. But not enough to say we'd be a playoff team under Malone and now we're headed for a top 5 pick under Corbin.

And coaching change or not, 2-4 in our last 6 games against our opponents was the expected outcome anyway. PHX, OKC and GSW are all better teams than us; with or without Malone. We beat the Knicks and Lakers, two teams we're better than. The Bucks game was the only real "let-down" game we've had under Corbin, but even short-handed, they aren't a push-over team anymore.

More important to me is us staying healthy and stringing together games where we're at full strength. That's really what's limited us from taking the next step.

 

[pshn80]

"Every game, going into the game with the mindset of being a defensive team, like we used to" -Boogie

"We have to get back to being our old team"

"We gotta get back to playing that type of basketball, as of right now we're taking steps back"

"We gotta get back to the right style of basketball, the right style for us to play"



Pete and Vivek are gonna screw around and lose a franchise player

It is a worry but I don't think that will happen - for one thing, it doesn't sell tickets.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

It is a worry but I don't think that will happen - for one thing, it doesn't sell tickets.

winning sells tickets. flashy high scoring losses do not.

No clue where the people that think this way are coming from

 

[pshn80]

We are 19th, not 23rd. Not really fair to pin that on Cousins, who has missed 11 games, 9 of which have been losses. With him, we are 11-8, good for a .58 winning percentage, which would put us around 12-13th in the league.
http://espn.go.com/nba/standings/_/group/1

Bad guess on my part, so he is only 19th. I, too, enjoy Cuz's success but I want a better team winning record as we all do. They're working on it. Hopefully it will improve sooner rather than later.

 

[Bricklayer]

What'll be interesting is in the next few practices, is what happens when Corbin, after being directed from the weasel to do so, focuses on offense, pace and implementing a more up and down system and Cuz responds with, "why are we talking offense, we need to concentrate on defense, that's why we're losing games".

Then what?

I see a similar dialogue happening this week. Cuz is not only a very intelligent guy but he's one who questions. Those quotes last night were the first steps of resistance. More usually happens behind the scenes on the practice court. I'm very curious to see how this goes when Cuz and PDA start butting heads through Corbin as the middle man. I don't really see Cuz accepting practices focused on pace and tempo and he's already singled out the issue of needing to get back to our defensive roots.

@BK
@Boston
@Minn
@Detriot

That's a 4-0 road trip based on our talent and the defensive mindset we had under Malone. 3-1 at worst. We start dropping these games while Corbin focuses on implementing offense, this could turn ugly fast.

Actually I am rather hopeful that the trip, by putting some distance between the front office and the coaches, may allow them to become more closely aligned with the players

 

[Bricklayer]

It is a worry but I don't think that will happen - for one thing, it doesn't sell tickets.

Tickets are sold by teams that win, period.

 

[pshn80]

Tickets are sold by teams that win, period.

Tickets are sold by teams that win, period.

Exactly my point. Thanks.

 

[Löwenherz]

The talk was all hell would break loose if they lost to the Knicks at home. To me, this is even worse.

We come away with an overtime win in which Boogie dominated, scoring his season high and carrying the team to victory down the stretch in OT, and in the post game interview he is absolutely dejected, demoralized and distraught. I've seen more upbeat funeral processions.

This has become a disaster and is spiraling into a screaming abyss. Vivek, stop telling us what we want and start listening to what we want. Ignore the buffoons who cost you a quality coach as a sacrifice to their own hubris. Listen to your fans, your team and your franchise player. Hire Karl (short of the impossible dream of bringing back Coach Malone); He's not perfect and not even the best coach for the star player we have and the team we want, but he's the best option out there right now. Abandon this stupid, patronizing, insulting fantasy of high-octane, run & gun, style over substance, small ball, Warriors-lite, crap. Realize how miraculous it is to have a franchise player as potentially transcendent and dominant as we currently do and design the team around his talents, strengths and weaknesses.

Bring us the bruisers, the battlers, the blood knights built around a Boogie Monster and watch the fans come out in droves.

 

[Chupacabra]

Everyone is suffering from a serious case of sample size bias. We haven't had enough games in ANY system at full strength this season to really make determinations whether we were legit or not. Improvements? Absolutely. But not enough to say we'd be a playoff team under Malone and now we're headed for a top 5 pick under Corbin.

And coaching change or not, 2-4 in our last 6 games against our opponents was the expected outcome anyway. PHX, OKC and GSW are all better teams than us; with or without Malone. We beat the Knicks and Lakers, two teams we're better than. The Bucks game was the only real "let-down" game we've had under Corbin, but even short-handed, they aren't a push-over team anymore.

More important to me is us staying healthy and stringing together games where we're at full strength. That's really what's limited us from taking the next step.

It's very confusing for me that someone of your acumen could put together an argument that completely ignores the fact that we fired a head coach that was 10-5 against the #1 SOS for stylistic purposes. We were obviously pretty good. You don't just luck out 10 out of 15 times against the likes of the western conference elite.

 

[dude12]

Everyone is suffering from a serious case of sample size bias. We haven't had enough games in ANY system at full strength this season to really make determinations whether we were legit or not. Improvements? Absolutely. But not enough to say we'd be a playoff team under Malone and now we're headed for a top 5 pick under Corbin.

And coaching change or not, 2-4 in our last 6 games against our opponents was the expected outcome anyway. PHX, OKC and GSW are all better teams than us; with or without Malone. We beat the Knicks and Lakers, two teams we're better than. The Bucks game was the only real "let-down" game we've had under Corbin, but even short-handed, they aren't a push-over team anymore.

More important to me is us staying healthy and stringing together games where we're at full strength. That's really what's limited us from taking the next step.

Didn't we already beat PHX with Cuz? Anyway, we were on our way to be in the playoff hunt before Cuz got hurt and that was with Malone.

 

[kupman]

Can you play their preferred brand of basketball AND play defense?

Of course you can.

 

[VF21]

The scary thing is I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Boogie moved if he doesn't buy into this nonsense, such is the delusion of PDA/Vivek.

I hope I'm wrong, but it's a genuine fear. I'll be out the door too if that happens.

Demarcus Cousins will not be moved. If even a hint of such a thought were to surface, the resulting fan revolt would make the nightly news on a national level...as it should.

Vivek may be wanting to try a different style but he is not a total idiot. He knows damned well one of the biggest reasons he's getting butts in the seats right now is because of #15. With the new arena on the horizon he has to make sure he keeps those butts in the seats. All the bells and whistles planned for the new place won't mean a damned thing if there isn't anyone there to enjoy them...and I can pretty much guarantee a mass exodus of fans and STH if even the remote hint of Cousins going anywhere were to surface.

That's one fear I think you can put to rest.

 

[VF21]

When did Vivek and the FO say that they no longer valued good defense? I have heard them say that they want a more widen open and fluid offense, but when did they say that they do not want good defense? Of course, when you play a faster paced game, all scores tend to increase as the number of possessions for both teams increase. However, you can still play great defense with a wide open offense.

I do not think that the FO would disagree with what DMC said last night. All would agree that the D needs to improve I think. Plus, did anyone notice that under this new style last night, DMC not only looked liked an All-Star, he also looked liked like an MVP candidate. Extremely impressive for someone who has been sick.

I am cautiously excited and enjoying it.

Yes, DMC looked terrific BUT so did the Knicks...and that's the problem. Our "defense" made the Knicks look like playoff contenders.

When you turn your focus away from what has been working towards something you want to work, you'd better make damned sure you have the right personnel in place to do it. We don't. Period.

Corbin admitted in his first interview after Malone's departure that it was tough to get the team to change focus. We're seeing the results of that right now.

Don't let the "W" fool you. That was not a good win. It was a lucky win that maybe once upon a time we could have been satisfied with. When you've got Cousins on your team, however, and you showed early on that there was finally a defensive mindset being formed, you shake you head in disbelief at how quickly it's gone to pot. Well, let me rephrase. I'm shaking my head in disbelief. I had hope and faith...right now, I'm trying to believe but only because of what DMC said last night after the game.

 

[VF21]

Actually I am rather hopeful that the trip, by putting some distance between the front office and the coaches, may allow them to become more closely aligned with the players

Yep, for the simple reason those coaches have nothing to lose at this point. Corbin is gonna be out the door anyway, and most likely whoever comes in will bring their own staff with them.

I would love to see a united front - team and coaches - put a defensive product back on the court that wins games.

 

[pshn80]

Yes, DMC looked terrific BUT so did the Knicks...and that's the problem. Our "defense" made the Knicks look like playoff contenders. When you turn your focus away from what has been working towards something you want to work, you'd better make damned sure you have the right personnel in place to do it. We don't. Period. Corbin admitted in his first interview after Malone's departure that it was tough to get the team to change focus. We're seeing the results of that right now. Don't let the "W" fool you. That was not a good win. It was a lucky win that maybe once upon a time we could have been satisfied with. When you've got Cousins on your team, however, and you showed early on that there was finally a defensive mindset being formed, you shake you head in disbelief at how quickly it's gone to pot. Well, let me rephrase. I'm shaking my head in disbelief. I had hope and faith...right now, I'm trying to believe but only because of what DMC said last night after the game.

What DMC AND Corbin said last night. And, yes, Cuz and the Knicks had good games last night but so did Gay and Collison and Stauskas and Corbin. And please remember that besides changing emphasis on "style" of play, we changed coaches, we played without Cuz and Cuz is not himself yet. He has not regained his stamina and it shows not on offense but on defense. He will get there but not yet and maybe not for a week or two. So it is not all on change of style which is a negative thing, change that is, until it works. So I think it is way too early to abandon ship.

 

[VF21]

Bring us the bruisers, the battlers, the blood knights built around a Boogie Monster and watch the fans come out in droves.

I am SO stealing that.

 

[Spike]

Can you play their preferred brand of basketball AND play defense? Especially with our roster? I don't think so. It's one or the other and if we take PDA at his word, he wants to see excitement. He wants flare. Defense is not exciting to the average fan.

And they're betting on the average fan to look up and say, "yay, points!"

You can't have DeMarcus as your defensive anchor and offensive MVP running this style. You will wear him out and break him down. There's a reason we looked good defensively, and it was, in part, due to pacing. Yes, that means running things with a little more deliberation from time to time, but it also spares our star from having to sprint sideline to sideline. I think our offensive sets were actually better under Malone.

It's easier to get back on d when you're not pushing the pace.

 

[VF21]

And they're betting on the average fan to look up and say, "yay, points!"

You can't have DeMarcus as your defensive anchor and offensive MVP running this style. You will wear him out and break him down. There's a reason we looked good defensively, and it was, in part, due to pacing. Yes, that means running things with a little more deliberation from time to time, but it also spares our star from having to sprint sideline to sideline. I think our offensive sets were actually better under Malone.

It's easier to get back on d when you're not pushing the pace.

And I think they're underestimating the intelligence of the vast majority of Kings fans who know more about the game than just "Yay, points"...

With Ben McLemore coming into his own we can have the best of both worlds. We can have DMC in the low post, we can have outside shooting with Ben, we have sparks off the bench if Omri and D-Will continue to impress and damn it we can and MUST have defense. The gyys have finally found out what the word means and now the FO is trying to tell them it's not that important...that running up and down like a bunch of rabid gazelles is more exciting, while listening to the stylings of Vivek's favorite jazz ensemble. Not gonna buy it...or rent it...or pull onto the lot to even kick the tires.

 

[swisshh]

There was a local interview with Bruce Bowen about the Kings situation. They asked him about the NBA 3.0 concepts and Bruce said that those sort of ideas never work out. He compared it to his time in Boston where Rick Pitino came in to do what he did in college, which is full court pressure defense and transition basketball. Bowen said he was totally invested into the idea and concept. (Given his defensive style, not a surprise.) So he ran it hard, but the team tired out, couldn't finish games and ended up losing. His point was that nearly everything has been tried and that the pro game is not where extreme ideas work. Due to roster depth, skill and other factors, you can't use tactics that work elsewhere. It might work on the bottom teams in the league since their talent level is closer to college level, but the playoff teams will exploit you.





PS:
If looking to find it: Interview was with 1320. Don't know if they upload their stuff or not.

 

[Glenn]

Yes, DMC looked terrific BUT so did the Knicks...and that's the problem. Our "defense" made the Knicks look like playoff contenders.

When you turn your focus away from what has been working towards something you want to work, you'd better make damned sure you have the right personnel in place to do it. We don't. Period.

Corbin admitted in his first interview after Malone's departure that it was tough to get the team to change focus. We're seeing the results of that right now.

Don't let the "W" fool you. That was not a good win. It was a lucky win that maybe once upon a time we could have been satisfied with. When you've got Cousins on your team, however, and you showed early on that there was finally a defensive mindset being formed, you shake you head in disbelief at how quickly it's gone to pot. Well, let me rephrase. I'm shaking my head in disbelief. I had hope and faith...right now, I'm trying to believe but only because of what DMC said last night after the game.

We need to hope Cousins can carry the team and the coaches.

 

[swisshh]

Of course you can.

But you need the right personnel, an 0ff-season and training camp to install the system, and the right coach. You can't do it mid-season. If you want to push pace and have some semblance of defense then you need a certain type of defense.

You need a defense that extends pressure and different sort of defensive rotation from what Malone coached. You can't do Malone's defense and then play Nelly Offense. For some reason, the entire front office missed this important factor. Even George Karl knows this. His teams defended with traps and extended pressure. A different system than the Pistons/Van Gundy/Malone style.

 

[Glenn]

And they're betting on the average fan to look up and say, "yay, points!"

You can't have DeMarcus as your defensive anchor and offensive MVP running this style. You will wear him out and break him down. There's a reason we looked good defensively, and it was, in part, due to pacing. Yes, that means running things with a little more deliberation from time to time, but it also spares our star from having to sprint sideline to sideline. I think our offensive sets were actually better under Malone.

It's easier to get back on d when you're not pushing the pace.

Yup. I think he also sees that he has to be responsible for the entire team's attitude towards defense. He may have to be the defensive coach. HE. WILL. TRY !!!!!!! It's in his DNA. He may collapse in the process.

 

[Löwenherz]

I am SO stealing that.

Truly, in all sincerity, I am honored.

 

[Prince_XY]

When did Vivek and the FO say that they no longer valued good defense? I have heard them say that they want a more widen open and fluid offense, but when did they say that they do not want good defense? Of course, when you play a faster paced game, all scores tend to increase as the number of possessions for both teams increase. However, you can still play great defense with a wide open offense.

Very good point.

A lot of fans (and sadly knowledgeable fans) here who did not agree with the fast paced offense continue to malign the FO. The mob mentality and chaos created by such posters are awesome!