Grades v. Heat 12/07

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Musselman is a loser until he proves otherwise.


I totally disagree with all of this Muss bashing going on around here. Everyone is acting like it is Muss' fault that the people playing aren't making open shots. Yes the offense looks sloppy, and so does the defense at times. But that is expected with a new coach. I just don't understand how there is this consensus that Muss is to blame for all this. Okay, so our guys aren't getting open shots on every possession due to our lack of offensive flow. But when they do get open shots they aren't knocking them down. And these are people that can knock down open shots.

Most of our close-losses have come as a result of poor shooting. Most of our blowout-losses have come against the best teams in the NBA.
 
Wow. I was at this game and I guess I didn't come away as down as people are here. I don't people are giving Salmons enough credit for his defense -- he got tired in overtime, but during the 4th Quarter his defense on Wade keyed that run. He was much more effective than Ron on Wade (obviously Ron's not 100%). He really smothered Wade until overtime, and without him the Kings would have never come back. Wade figured him out in overtime, but that was an impressive performance.

I don't know if I've ever seen someone shoot as many in-and-out shots as Martin tonight. His shot looked pretty good for the most part, it just wasn't falling.

And Musselman played an actual rotation tonight -- progress.


And finally, the offense actually seemed to start flowing in the 4th Quarter with ball movement, Bibby running his two man game with Miller and moving the ball across the court. I hope it's the start of something.

i can't necessarily consider this progress. i can consider it a step in the right direction when compared to the silliness of the last few games, but progress means improving on what's already in place. i'm willing to give muss time, but he's got a long ways to go in order to get to 700 career wins and a fair comparison to the success of a guy like rick adelman. in the short term, that means no more dickin' around. settle on a proper and consitent rotation...fast.
 
He has more of a Phoenix Suns type team and players, but they don't play up-tempo.

Muss may have spare parts similar to PHX's, but I don't think for one second that more than two or three (Bibby, Martin, Artest) guys on this roster could even get on the floor for PHX night in and night out. And of those three, Martin is the only guy that would really fit into the PHX system --- Bibby is too slow-footed to run their offense (although his lack of defense would basically match Nash's), and Artest is not at his best spotting up for open jumpers or cutting to the basket, but at having the ball in his hands, especially on the low block (somewhere most PHX players only touch it if it's going right back up for a layup or dunk).

And let's not forget that PHX is running with a two-time MVP PG, a freak athlete SF/PF (Marion), a very good passing SF/PF (Diaw), and a guy at C who's twice the athlete of any Kings' big even though he's less than two years removed from microfracture.

In truth, the biggest thing missing from this roster if Muss wants to run in a push-first PG. Bibby may have been that when he came into the league (I'm not certain), but he hasn't been that type of PG since he donned a Kings' uniform, and he's just not going to morph into one at this stage of his career.

As for the game tonight, after watching/listening to Wade get call after call in the NBA Finals last year (more than half deserved, but not more than 3/4 deserved, imho), I'm not going to say I'm surprised that he was able to earn trips to the line that his opponents were not.
 
My thoughts

Yet again the team plays like crap for most of the game to try to make something happen at the end.

I don't know why Reef was in during the fourth and late game periods when Thomas had outplayed him the whole game. I also was thinking of the Artest at PF before it happened, so I was glad to see it. Haslem isn't really a threat and Artest at pf is a matchup problem on the other end.

Unfortunately, Artest yet again dribbled away the offense in his one on one. He got one open three by playing within the offense, and he made it. Otherwise he's going one on five and forcing, forcing, forcing the game and missing the junk he throws up. I don't know. If my only made shot in the final part of the game is by playing off of Bibby and Miller running the normal offense, but all my misses are off of rushing into the middle.. I think I'd play within the offense. If Ron wants to score that is. Maybe he just wants shot attempts.

The team was just flat shooting wise. Martin was the worst and he really wasn't being guarded all that well. Most of his shots were wide open. It just seemed a mental tick that the whole team was worried about missing.

And yah the last no call was bogus, but sadly I am use to such incompetance.
 
Martin ( D ) -- well, its almost semi-official now -- all the defensive attention focused on Kevin has knocked him into something approaching a slump. Another slow start for Kevin, and this time not all about being pressured. Just missed open shot after open shot that he was hitting at a near 100% clip a couple of weeks ago. And when he has a bad night, man does it seem like he's going to have a bad night. At one point he was 1-10, 0-6 from 3pt land (which he kept settling for) and again not much of anything else -- 2 rebs, 1ast, 2 TOs. Recovered, so to speak, to finally hit one of the endless stream of threes he was chucking up in the 4th...and then went right back to missing. Dodged the F by finally, 47min 10seconds into the game, attacking the paint for that little floater and hitting a big shot to draw us within 2 in the final minute of regulation. And got rid of the minus by making a couple of subtle good plays late despite the terrible offense: Challenged Wade on Wade's game winning attempt at the regulation buzzer, and then had an assist to Brad in the final seconds of OT to tie us back up. Nonetheless, Kevin's bubble, if not already burst, is in severe danger of doing so now. And he's got to figure out ways to do better than 3-15 or we are in trouble.



I dont think I've ever seen game where one player(Kevin) had balls bounce out or crawled the rim like I did last night. Just about every shot missed either was half way down and popped out or crawled around the rim atleast once and came off.

It was freaky.
 
In and out shots are unlucky. Too bad, tough luck and all that. I spent all last year defending Cisco's in-and-out-itis. Still the team is hurting bad.

Frankly, Artest is unhappy and leaking toxic cancer and Bibby does not want to play on this team as is anymore. Those are pretty incurable facts.

Martin is guarded now. Same story as the last couple of years. If Bibby makes threes we might win. If not - not much chance. A medicore roster is not going to make Mussel look any better. He's lost with this group, but they weren't anything more than a #8 seed contender anyhow.

the one tradition that has held fast is the awful heartbreaking losses. Nobody does it like the Kings, and whether it's ot or 30 footers at the buzzer the pain is unfortunately familiar.

Ouch. I wish they were better.
 
Yes the offense looks sloppy, and so does the defense at times. But that is expected with a new coach. I just don't understand how there is this consensus that Muss is to blame for all this.

However it is not expected, or at least shouldn't be, that a new coach would still be completely dumbfounded by his own team almost 20 games into the season.
 
The last time we went through a streak like this it ended up with Webber being traded. I am starting to wonder how much losing the management is going to be willing to take. I can't imagine the Maloofs are very happy right now.
Bibby, Miller and Thomas for Iverson?
 
For someone who got used to Adelman's line-ups and rotations, which on the whole made sense, I'm struggling with Muss's that just come out of nowhere.

I had to laugh when Grant said to open the 4th quarter, "I really like this line-up coming out now, this is great!" It included Shareef and Corliss. In about 2 minutes they managed to come up with 2 turnovers and 3 fouls. Completely killing any tiny momentum we had and digging an even deeper hole.

Kenny Thomas isn't my favorite guy, but he was sensational in the 1st half. And in crunch time he's replaced with Corliss??

If Chemistry on offense is our biggest problem, then screwing around with line-ups is working AGAINST chemistry. Pick 5 guys, and 3 back-ups and STICK WITH THEM LONG ENOUGH TO SEE IF THEY CAN PLAY TOGETHER!!

I no longer accept injuries to starters as an excuse to muck around with the line-up since everyone is now NOT injured.

Start:
Bibby
Martin
Artest
Thomas
Miller.

PERIOD!!! Only change that if someone is actually INJURED at the time.

Back-ups:
Salmons (over Garcia because of Salmons defense and experience, he doesn't make bonehead plays)
Price (the kid is quick and a decent defender at the point)
Shareef (since we have no one else tall)

Garbage time (which we haven't seen in ages):
Garcia
Hart
Douby and whoever...
 
Hey now, for years and years and years all everybody could do was complain about Rick and his set rotations. Now you get a guy coming along coaching like he's playing NBA Live and we're STILL complaining? Jeesh...cannot win.

Literally. ;)
 
Hey now, for years and years and years all everybody could do was complain about Rick and his set rotations. Now you get a guy coming along coaching like he's playing NBA Live and we're STILL complaining? Jeesh...cannot win.

Literally. ;)

Yeah, I remember all the whining about Adelman's rotations. Except not from me. I loved his rotations.

My only complaint was that he didn't give the young players enough chances to get in the game and would play his top 9 too many minutes. But substitutions and line-ups - I never had a problem with the logic of them.
 
Also, watching the replay of the final play -- who didn't make the final call?? BOB DELANEY. The same guy who called a foul on Bibby's face for hitting Kobe's elbow.

I swear -- this guy has the stones to go undercover with the mob, but he can't make a big call late in the game?
 
Disagree with it all you want, his career coaching record is 83-99. He's a loser until he proves otherwise.

Way to look at the situation with blinders on.

I made that statement and then backed it up with some supporting statements. Did you read all of what I said, or just what you wanted to in order to support your own agenda?
 
However it is not expected, or at least shouldn't be, that a new coach would still be completely dumbfounded by his own team almost 20 games into the season.

You are over-reacting, along with most of the fans on this board.

Muss would only be dumbfounded by the fact that people who usually hit shots, are not.
 
Also, watching the replay of the final play -- who didn't make the final call?? BOB DELANEY. The same guy who called a foul on Bibby's face for hitting Kobe's elbow.

I swear -- this guy has the stones to go undercover with the mob, but he can't make a big call late in the game?

Yes, the ref of the Infamous Game 6 along with Bavetta. I'll never forget those guys.
 
You are over-reacting, along with most of the fans on this board.

Muss would only be dumbfounded by the fact that people who usually hit shots, are not.

But why are their shots not falling? Is it just a mass slump? Or is it something to do with the style of offense.

I believe it's at least partially to do with a confusion on offense, too much concern about who's going where, who's not passing, and when a player finally gets a shot, it's not comfortable. There's no flow.
 
When you look back at these games and see the few spurts of scoring we've had, it's because we suddenly start playing Adelman offense, Brad is usually in, we are running PnRs, setting screens, people are moving without the ball. There's no ISO or dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble - turnover...
 
Why didn't we exploit that matchup when miami put out 3 smalls toward the end of regulation. Salmons could have taken JWill with ease...why didn't we feed him the ball. Its pissing me off how either bibby or artest bring the ball up and take their shot (without passing once!!)
 
Kings got robbed... Bibby was hacked by Wade!

You know damn well if that was Wade he would have got that call.

The refs makes me sick.



oh another thing....

WTF took Muss so long to realize ARTEST SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON WADE EARLIER IN OT?!?!?!?!
 
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WTF took Muss so long to realize ARTEST SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON WADE EARLIER IN OT?!?!?!?!

Artest was on Wade -- and Wade was killing him. Artest is definitely definitely injured and I'm not trying to say anything ludicrous like Salmons is a better defender. But last night, until overtime Salmons was the better matchup.
 
I like Salmons. I think with more time he will produce more. I like his D, he was doing decent against Wade...I got pissed when Payton was posting up our smalls.
 
But why are their shots not falling? Is it just a mass slump? Or is it something to do with the style of offense.

I believe it's at least partially to do with a confusion on offense, too much concern about who's going where, who's not passing, and when a player finally gets a shot, it's not comfortable. There's no flow.


Good question. I think it is a compilation of many smaller problems that are compounding into one big problem. No doubt you are right about the confusion on offense. However, I for one, didn't expect our guys to instantly adjust from a princeton-like offense to a whatever-you-call-this offense overnight.

But back to the reasons.

1. Bibby always starts off slow. He is taking way too many shots for how bad he is shooting, and the fact that we have so many other scorers. He needs to look to set up other guys first, and then turn his switch on later in the game. And when he gets open shots, he needs to hit them. I don't like excuses, so if his wrist is bothering him, then he needs to sit out -- even if our team suffers because of it.

2. Ron and Brad are also shooting terribly. And combined they take 1/3 to 1/4 of our total shots on a given night. Both have had injury problems as well but again I don't like excuses. They need to continue to sit out until they can produce. And if they are healthy enough to produce effeciently, then I want to see it. And on a consistent basis.

3. As stated above, these guys are trying to adjust to a new system, both offensively and defensively. 20 games is not enough to institute a new system, no matter what kind of coach you are. I am of the opinion that it is going to take almost the entire year for everyone to find their niche and role. As long as we are moving towards efficiency and consistency, over the course of the year, then I will be happy. Baby steps. To expect everyone to adjust instantaneously is absurd.

4. Not only are our core players shooting terribly, but they are in turn ruining the flow of offense. We aren't taking advantage of mismatches as much as we should and I don't necessarily blame Muss for that. Say for example a team is denying an entry pass to Ron down low. Well we aren't persistent enough to continue to move the ball around to accomplish the same goal. We are trying to take what the defense gives us more than we should. We should be focusing on imposing our will on other teams.

5. Defensively we have seen a few moments of brilliance. Even with a pathetic frontcourt -- same old story right? But a bunch of our points are given up in transition, because we fail to make shots. You can only ask your guys to give you energy on two of the three "areas" in basketball. Offense, defense and transition. We are focusing our energy on offense and defense and when we miss shots we don't have the energy to get back on defense in transition.

6. We have very little resolve. When we miss a few shots, and a team gets some easy baskets, you get the idea that some of our guys mentally lose focus. And then others step it up but as a whole it is not enough. We need to be stronger mentally.

7. With the princeton-type offense Adelman ran it focused on getting guys open shots in certain areas. And we had players that could hit shots from those spots. Now we are asking those same players to take the same shots, from different spots. Again, it will take time to adjust.

8. We have an entire team of secondary players. We have no superstar that will carry the team through tough times. As much as some of our players would like to be "the guy", none of them are. And you want that attitude for the most part. It is what keeps them good secondary players. But can you think of anyone on our team that can impose their will on any other team? Everyone we have needs other people to help them. So they need to focus on helping eachother a little more.



Most of our money is not producing. We are paying Mike, Brad and Ron a combined amount of almost $30 million. And collectively they are the reason we have lost so many games. They are our three worst shooters right now. And they take most of the shots. If there was only one golden reason for our record right now it is that.

To think all teams, even championship teams, don't have issues throught the course of a year is rediculous. We have a set of problems that are compounding the other ones. All I ask for as a fan is that our guys work towards fixing those problems. If we lose some games on the way then so be it. As long as we make progress then I will be happy.
 
That's a pretty thorough analysis.

I only have a few comments to add.

If Ron, Mike, and Brad are our big money guys, they should be the ones taking the bulk of the shots. The problem, as you point out, they are missing most of them. I'm wondering if it's just a normal slump (or affects from injuries) or if the offense itself is not working in their favor.

You point out that this offense is still new, and I think that's why they are not comfortable and when they are not comfortable, shots will not fall. If it's just a matter of growing in this offense, then, in theory, they will improve over time. That's what we're waiting to find out.
 
Way to look at the situation with blinders on...
Only if "blinders" is a euphemism for "won't give Musselman the benefit of the doubt, because he doesn't deserve it."

If Adelman was coaching this team to this record, you'd be ready to crucify him. Musselman does not deserve more lattitude than Adelman would have had in the same situation, and I'll not be convinced otherwise.
 
Only if "blinders" is a euphemism for "won't give Musselman the benefit of the doubt, because he doesn't deserve it."

If Adelman was coaching this team to this record, you'd be ready to crucify him. Musselman does not deserve more lattitude than Adelman would have had in the same situation, and I'll not be convinced otherwise.

Not true. I can see the forest for the trees. Adelman did coach the team to a record of this caliber last year before the Artest trade. I was one of the few who was always behind Adelman, rain or shine. To compare situations, if they guys were shooting so horribly under Adelman I'd be one to point it out where others would martyr Rick.
 
Not true. I can see the forest for the trees. Adelman did coach the team to a record of this caliber last year before the Artest trade...
And people were calling for his job... Do I have to dig up the threads and show you?

Musselman doesn't deserve any more lattitude than was extended to Adelman.
 
Not true. I can see the forest for the trees. Adelman did coach the team to a record of this caliber last year before the Artest trade. I was one of the few who was always behind Adelman, rain or shine. To compare situations, if they guys were shooting so horribly under Adelman I'd be one to point it out where others would martyr Rick.

Rick had proven over 15 years that if his guys are shooting terribly its not because of his system -- one of the preeminent offensive coaches of his era. For some reason Muss is acused of being a defensive minded coach. Paid only marginal attention to his Golden State years, bu can tell you that he has all of one year of decent defense on his record -- the other year it was run n gun all the way and one of the worst defenses in the league. This year, at the moemnt he appears to be a neither.

And of course, one more time, RICK DID NOT HAVE ARTEST. Nor Super-Kevin. To compare what rick did with the neutured pansies we began last year with to what Muss is doing with the supposedly "fixed" team that Rick led to the 5th best record int he elague (and then got fired for not going far ENOUGH with) is silly.

Bottonline: Rick this roster? Won about 60% of his games, makes playoffs, scares somebody. Muss this roster? Almost ready to lose the team, team is falling apart on both ends. And of course Muss has absolutely zero record of ever pulling off the save and turnaround in the NBA. He's young enough that there remains a "well, he COULD". But there's not a thing you can point to other than our hopes and his ability to be a good interview to back it up at this point. May be in over his head. Now is he not only smart enough, but adaptable enough to recover and change?
 
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And people were calling for his job... Do I have to dig up the threads and show you?

Musselman doesn't deserve any more lattitude than was extended to Adelman.

You make a fair point for the other people that called for Adelman's head in the past. I remember the hordes of them. However, I stand by my statment now as I did then. Dig if you must.
 
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