Grades v. Heat 11/02

[Kings113]

I think Bonzi's just playing a bit of the 5th wheel on offense with this Kings team (as the SG did during the glory years) because the other 4 players need to play bigger roles in the offense (otherwise, what's the point of any of them being on the floor?).

But back in the days when the Blazers were feared as the most talented team in the NBA, Bonzi averaged 17 and 15 ppg in about 31 minutes per game. I also recall him going off on the Mavericks in a playoff series a few years ago. I think he could easily be a solid third option for this team on offense, if not a second option, but the problem is that he's playing with 4 guys that are better offensive talents than he is. To me, that doesn't mean his isn't talented offensively.

Yeah, he put up 45 on the Mavs in R1 2003. Along with a few of his past averages.

 

[4cwebb]

I disagree.

I think Pop would definitely have us playing serious defense. We wouldn't be standouts, but I guarantee we would see Skinner get some minutes when Brad refuses to body up.

The whole game would be paced to keep us going on defense.

Just like RA can get great performance from players offensively ... I think Pop can get guiys playing D.

Pop can get guys to focus on playing D, but please tell me you aren't suggesting that with this roster the Kings could replicate the defensive effectiveness of the Spurs' roster merely by switching coaches. My point is that the coach and the system have something to do with playing good defense, but if the talent isn't there, it just isn't there. I just don't see any way that this Kings' roster can be even an average defensive team, regardless of hustle. If the Kings slowed the game down to a crawl just to reduce the other team's offensive attempts, that to me would just mean that the Kings would lose games 90-80, instead of 100-90.

 

[playmaker0017]

The only reason Portland used Reef at the 3 was because of their logjam at PF. They knew Reef was being underutilized but they didn't have any better alternatives. It would be stupid to put ourselves in that situation. We might as well trade both Reef and Peja.

Agreed. Regardless of the reason - Reef played admirably.

As I mentioned though, the key piece would be having a roaming shotblocker that covers the lane.

And I don't know what game you're watching, self-proclaimed Reef homer, but the guy is no better than Peja at defense.

Well, unfortunately, there really is no way to debate that one. It's just opinion since a lot of defense can't be measured in stats.

From what I see nightly, Reef is the better defender.

And you can throw that "Reef homer" thing at me - but I'm also very critical of him. I don't think Reef is a "good" defender. I just think he's better than anything we've got on the floor currently ... and that's sad.

 

[Kings113]

This, has certainly turned into one hell of a thread. Indeed.

 

[Ryle]

Their coach is also their GM and has built his team around guys who are, were, and always have been excellent defenders. He gets his non-defenders to buy in too, but the key is the studs capable of not only shutting down their own man, but making everybody else better too. Not too different from the way it was here when we were a good defensive team. Bibby and Peja were the same players, but they fed off of, were inspired by, and raised their effort to match the defensive efforts of their teammates.

If GEOFF trades for Ben Wallace tommorow, our defense instantly takes a huge step forward. And not because Rick suddenly remembers how to coach it.

Personnel. Look to the man in charge of personnel.

Dammit Brick....it's approaching my bedtime here on the west coast and what are you doing up 3 hours ahead of me???? Just go to bed already.

Sorry had to add this.....Buford is actually their "GM"

 

[playmaker0017]

Pop can get guys to focus on playing D, but please tell me you aren't suggesting that with this roster the Kings could replicate the defensive effectiveness of the Spurs' roster merely by switching coaches.

No. That's why I said we wouldn't be standouts.

But, my guess is that instead of being near the bottom of the league in defense we'd be top 15.

 

[yanon]

Even if Pop is the coach, the Kings' defense will probably be just average instead of way below average. In order to play tough defense, the Kings need to get rid off the slow non-athletic players and acquire some athletic studs with hops and lateral quickness.

 

[Zyphen]

Brad and Peja would suffer tremendously under Pop. I don't think they can competently accomplish his schemes at either end of the court.

 

[Ryle]

Pop can get guys to focus on playing D, but please tell me you aren't suggesting that with this roster the Kings could replicate the defensive effectiveness of the Spurs' roster merely by switching coaches. My point is that the coach and the system have something to do with playing good defense, but if the talent isn't there, it just isn't there. I just don't see any way that this Kings' roster can be even an average defensive team, regardless of hustle. If the Kings slowed the game down to a crawl just to reduce the other team's offensive attempts, that to me would just mean that the Kings would lose games 90-80, instead of 100-90.

Not a top defensive team but one that actually tries.....that's really all that me and my other fellow season ticket holders want.

 

[4cwebb]

No. That's why I said we wouldn't be standouts.

But, my guess is that instead of being near the bottom of the league in defense we'd be top 15.

Top half of the league? With this roster, no matter who has the reigns, that to me just seems to be lofty expectations. There is almost a complete lack of defensive talent from a team perspective --- lack of atheleticism in the front court, lack of speed in the back court, and not one of the starters has a natural feel for defense. Some guys just have that, some don't. Unfortunately, the Kings starters don't.

 

[playmaker0017]

Top half of the league? With this roster, no matter who has the reigns, that to me just seems to be lofty expectations. There is almost a complete lack of defensive talent from a team perspective --- lack of atheleticism in the front court, lack of speed in the back court, and not one of the starters has a natural feel for defense. Some guys just have that, some don't. Unfortunately, the Kings starters don't.

That's the rub isn't it.

I'd bet a lot of what we consider to be starter material would change.

I'd bet you'd see Skinner off the bench andin the starting unit. I'd bet you'd see a lot more Corliss. I'd bet Sampson would get a few minutes.

I bet you guys would be getting benched for lackluster effort on defense too.

I guarantee that under Pop - Skinner starts. Either for Reef or Miller.

I'd bet these rookies would be getting minutes based on defense. I'd bet that Peja would ride the pine and watch Garcia out there hustling.

Athletic talent is a HUGE thing, but a TEAM effort can shut down individuality.

As you walk down our roster, we have no defensive juggernaughts. That's a given. But, teams are usually more than the sum of their collective pieces. If we were to worka s a defensive unit and focus on that aspect ... we'd improve. And improve greatly.

 

[Ryle]

Even if Pop is the coach, the Kings' defense will probably be just average instead of way below average. In order to play tough defense, the Kings need to get rid off the slow non-athletic players and acquire some athletic studs with hops and lateral quickness.

Have you ever watched the Spurs play??? It doesn't have much to do with athleticism(see Horry, Nesterovic and Nazr) but more to do with the fact that they have enough bodies to interchange and if you don't play defense you won't get on the floor.

Kings are a different story....if you can't do anything on the offensive end you won't play.

 

[Ryle]

That's the rub isn't it.

I'd bet a lot of what we consider to be starter material would change.

I'd bet you'd see Skinner off the bench andin the starting unit. I'd bet you'd see a lot more Corliss. I'd bet Sampson would get a few minutes.

I bet you guys would be getting benched for lackluster effort on defense too.

I guarantee that under Pop - Skinner starts. Either for Reef or Miller.

I'd bet these rookies would be getting minutes based on defense. I'd bet that Peja would ride the pine and watch Garcia out there hustling.

Athletic talent is a HUGE thing, but a TEAM effort can shut down individuality.

As you walk down our roster, we have no defensive juggernaughts. That's a given. But, teams are usually more than the sum of their collective pieces. If we were to worka s a defensive unit and focus on that aspect ... we'd improve. And improve greatly.

We are on the same page Playmaker.....

 

[playmaker0017]

Have you ever watched the Spurs play??? It doesn't have much to do with athleticism(see Horry, Nesterovic and Nazr) but more to do with the fact that they have enough bodies to interchange and if you don't play defense you won't get on the floor.

Not to mention Tim Duncan.

The guy is righteously great - and probably one of the best players ever.

But - he isn't exactly an athletic specimen.

 

[4cwebb]

Not a top defensive team but one that actually tries.....that's really all that me and my other fellow season ticket holders want.

I can't argue with you there...I don't mean to put forth the argument that because the Kings' players do not have the talent on the defensive side of the ball as the Spurs, Pistons, or even the Orlando Magic, we as fans should excuse a lack of effort. And some of it does relate to the coach, the GM, and the organization as a whole. Anyone know what Keon Clark is currently doing?

Oh, one other thing that I've been thinking about. For some of these teams that don't have all the talent in the world, it's all about effort. Bobcats, Hornets, etc. --- if they play with effort, they're still NBA players, and they can jump up and surprise teams at times with their tenacity and desire (heck, the Hornets are now 8-7 after beating the Sixers - may be the Kings blowout loss won't look so bad by the end of the year).

Problem with this Kings' team is that some of them may have gotten used to not having to play all out all the time --- I'm not directly pointing the finger and accusing any one player of overt laziness, but a few years ago, the Kings could on many nights just show up, play their game on the offensive end of the floor, and walk out of the arena with a W, sometimes inspite of their defensive efforts. With the changes that this team has undergone, that's just not going to happen anymore.

Wonder if a house cleaning isn't in order at some level to right the ship. Maybe it starts with a Peja trade, or maybe it starts with an Adelman dismissal. Or maybe this team can still turn it around if they figure out that the purple just doesn't get them a W anymore, and that without maximum effort night in and night out, with guys flying all over the floor, diving for lose balls, challenging for every rebound, a lose is just as likely, if not moreso, than a win. It's been less than 20 games. I'm willing to give it another 20 to see where this ship can sail before worrying about making any moves.

Edit: unless, of course, McHale calls with a KG offer, or the Raptors call with a Bosh offer, or something ridiculous akin to either of the above falls into Petrie's lap. Then I say jump at the chance, whatever it may be.

 

[yanon]

Have you ever watched the Spurs play??? It doesn't have much to do with athleticism(see Horry, Nesterovic and Nazr) but more to do with the fact that they have enough bodies to interchange and if you don't play defense you won't get on the floor.

Kings are a different story....if you can't do anything on the offensive end you won't play.

Those players you mentioned are not the ones who anchor their defense. Bowen (more athletic than Peja) and Duncan (can jump higher than Brad) are the beasts on defense.

 

[Ryle]

My apoligies to everyone for posting so much. I just got back from the game and I'm a little irritated. Anyway, FIRE ADELMAN AND TRADE PEJA!!!

 

[playmaker0017]

Alright gang, I'm out. Sleepy sleep time.

Passing the 1AM mark and I'm still going.

I've got a plane to Hawaii to catch. Hopefully the Kings can rack some up while I'm out.

Peace!

PS - Go Reef!

 

[playmaker0017]

Those players you mentioned are not the ones who anchor their defense. Bowen and Duncan are the beasts on defense.

And I said - TD isn't exactly an athletic stud.

 

[yanon]

And I said - TD isn't exactly an athletic stud.

no one said he is a athletic freak but can you dispute the fact that he is at least better than the average big men in term of athletic ability? Obviously, the Spurs would be destorying every team like the bulls did back in 97-98 if Duncan can jump like MJ and is quick like AI.

 

[4cwebb]

Not to mention Tim Duncan.

The guy is righteously great - and probably one of the best players ever.

But - he isn't exactly an athletic specimen.

OK, Tim Duncan is no Dwight Howard (anyone else seen that picture of him jumping and kissing the rim?) when it comes to atheleticism, but he's above average, and he has actual size. Duncan at 6'9" might not be the Great Tim Duncan, but he's basically 7 feet tall, and that's just enough of a boost in the NBA when coupled with his athleticism to make him a great defender (I guess --- I've never been sold on him being the best post defender of all time or anything, but that's another argument). He's not the fastest, but he's fluid enough and fast enough. He's got great coordination, which a lot of guys his size just don't have for one reason or another. He can't jump the highest, but high enough, especially with his size. It's not as if he's Darius Songaila --- that guy isn't an athletic specimen on the NBA level.

As for the mention of Horry as not being athletic, he might not be a super athlete that he was when he wore a Rockets uniform, but he's still got enough in the tank when he wants to use it to get the job done. Still dunks with either hand in traffic. Still blocks shots at the rim (recall the two games last year when Duncan was out and Horry stepped in and played like an All Star). Horry is a huge anomaly in the NBA --- he wants no individual glory as far as statistics go. He just wants to win, all the time. He'd be worthless on a team like the Bobcats b/c he'd have nothing to play for, but when the stakes are highest, he's at his best, and he's got more than enough athleticism to help the cause. He just chooses not to use it unless absolutely necessary. But by no means is he unathletic. If he'd played with Jordan instead of Pippen, Bulls still may have won 6 titles (and no, I haven't been smoking anything --- I hate Horry for that dagger three as much, if not more, than any other Kings fan. But like Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, etc. in terms of guys that I have disliked or cheered against over the years, I'm not afraid to recognize talent, ability, drive, determination, or greatness when I see it, albeit sometimes begrudgingly).

 

[Ryle]

Those players you mentioned are not the ones who anchor their defense. Bowen (more athletic than Peja) and Duncan (can jump higher than Brad) are the beasts on defense.

I actually thing Peja can jump higher than Brad so that's not saying much.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Is there anyone on this team who is not completely expendable?

Emotionally, yes.

Logically, no.

 

[yanon]

I am just comparing the Kings sf and center to the Spurs sf and center/foward. In doing so to prove that the Kings can't play at the Spurs level of defense even if pop is the coach. You can't guard a quick players or stop a very athletic slasher consistently if you are slow and can't jump like most of the Kings players.

 

[Kings2805]

It is time to show the one dimensional Peja the door. This guy is 6'10 and can't rebound worth a darn only averages about 5rbs/gm, and he lacks hustle and the killer instinct going after loose balls or banging down low for a crucial rebound. Those are all flaws that in some ways could be forgiven, but one flaw that can't is his CASPER act in the 4th quarter and clutch situations. I am just tired of watching Peja go off for like 25 1st half pts, and then choke when it matters the most, and miss all of his shots. Then you see Ray Allen suck in the 1st half, and then turns it on and crushes us with clutch shot after clutch shot when it matters the most. He was like 0-7 today in the 4th quarter, and it's like why even play him at all in the 4th? He can't rebound, score, defend, or even make a quality play to change the outcome. He becomes casper and is virtually unheard from in the clutch.

He definately is not worth max contract $, if the Kings pay him that I will honestly stop watching the Kings(not really), bc of their stupidity. I am tired of the Kings letting good quality talent go for nothing. Jim Jackson, Gerald Wallace, Eddie House, Jon Barry, etc all good role players or future stars(gerald) go for absolutely nothing, but keeping chumps like the inconsistent Kevin Martin. I can't stand that guy he has one good game, and then follows it up with 1pt? What a joke, and the Kings justified letting Mo Evans go bc Kevin Martin is more athletic, and has more potential!! LOL, that is a joke, the guy looks like he should be in the NBDL not the NBA. Get rid of both of them chumps, and get some quality talent in return.

 

[bozzwell]

While we're quarelling about how exactly "not bad" our favorite players are, Kings are quietly slipping into being comfortable with lower reaches of mediocrity. Not terrible - just bad.

I am not going to air my real opinions here, because I would get banned from the forum, but suiffice to say, while some/many/most of us spend time defending their favorite players or (even worse) boosting them Kings are turning into **** in front our very eyes.

And by the way, I am off the RA wagon. It is beyond me what is going on. Does he want to get fired? Not to mention GP...

BTW Brick, your grades are a OK. Lets' get used to it.

 

[Kings113]

Anyone know what Keon Clark is currently doing?

Oh, one other thing that I've been thinking about. For some of these teams that don't have all the talent in the world, it's all about effort. Bobcats, Hornets, etc. --- if they play with effort, they're still NBA players, and they can jump up and surprise teams at times with their tenacity and desire (heck, the Hornets are now 8-7 after beating the Sixers - may be the Kings blowout loss won't look so bad by the end of the year).

Wonder if a house cleaning isn't in order at some level to right the ship. Maybe it starts with a Peja trade, or maybe it starts with an Adelman dismissal. Or maybe this team can still turn it around if they figure out that the purple just doesn't get them a W anymore, and that without maximum effort night in and night out, with guys flying all over the floor, diving for lose balls, challenging for every rebound, a lose is just as likely, if not moreso, than a win. It's been less than 20 games. I'm willing to give it another 20 to see where this ship can sail before worrying about making any moves.

Edit: unless, of course, McHale calls with a KG offer, or the Raptors call with a Bosh offer, or something ridiculous akin to either of the above falls into Petrie's lap. Then I say jump at the chance, whatever it may be.

Agreed.

Keon is done with the NBA, in a report a couple months ago.

 

[Wuster]

Kings outplayed, period. Good grades Bricklayer. Especially like your comment about Adelman's loyalties to players/Peja. He (Adelman) will sacrifice games at this expense. I think he takes into account the psyche of each starter and the whole season mentality, not individual games. He is not going to change.

Zo - A. What a great defensive shot-blocking performance.
J-Will - A.

 

[Kings113]

Kings outplayed, period. Good grades Bricklayer. Especially like your comment about Adelman's loyalties to players/Peja. He (Adelman) will sacrifice games at this expense. I think he takes into account the psyche of each starter and the whole season mentality, not individual games. He is not going to change.

Zo - A. What a great defensive shot-blocking performance.
J-Will - A.

J-Will scored 2 (or 4, forget which) points after the 1st half . Had 16/18 at the half, totaled 20. Still got some assists of course.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Brick,

The only thing is - RA signed off on all player movement and acquisitions.

This IS his team. This IS the roster he wanted.

That's not completely true. While Rick's inability to put Skinner or Tag in doesn't always make sense, he has lamented his team's lack of defensive personnel in the past.

But your earlier point about trading Peja for a defensive C/PF and shifting Reef to SF is spot on. If the Kings are to get any better defensively with Miller and Reef both still on the team, that's what it's going to take.