Grades v. Heat 11/02

[SacDoug]

I agree. If Shareef can get the ball enough, then he will be a 20 pt scorer. Chris Webber averaged about 20 PPG and took 20 shots each game. Shareef is much more efficient. He could average 20 PPG with just 16 shots. Getting him the ball those extra times is the trick.

The Kings average about 80 shot attempts a game or about 1 shot per 3 minutes each player is on the floor. The players usually are pretty close to that 1:3 ratio of shots/minutes played. The Kings distribute the ball pretty well so the shots usually are split pretty evenly between the players. Shareef is averaging 11 shots per game this year. Shareef has been playing about 30-35 minutes a game. Either the Kings are going to have to start feeding him the ball and telling him to shoot it or he is going to have to play more minutes.

 

[4cwebb]

I would bet it would be a package and we'd send KT in the deal, but I've not heard any real specifics other than the Bulls wanted Peja and they were willing to move Deng.

I'd take any of these: Hinrich, Gooden, Piatkowski.

Gooden? I'm not sure I know who you're referring to.

I'm sure the Bulls won't give up Hinrich in that deal --- he's a lynchpin of their success, imho.

 

[playmaker0017]

Deng is a stud but he really is a player that needs the ball and his go to moves are all solo plays going to the basket. He isn't that exceptional on D either. He boards better though. Nocioni is an energy guy on D, I would like him.

Yeah, see ... if Deng isn't a defender than I wouldn't want the deal.

I'd want a defender. I could care less if the guy averaged 5 points on offense on 4 shots. We need a guy that doesn't want or need the ball.

I'd love Bonzi even more if he was willing to take that role. The 9-10 shots a game guy that is just about hustle and roleplay.

 

[playmaker0017]

Gooden? I'm not sure I know who you're referring to.

Ack - I meant Gordon.

 

[vj9999]

When you are sub-500 ... no one is not expendable.

But, just look down the roster - what position is more easily filled?

The deal with Peja though is that we either need to do something or sign him. The reason I find him more "expendable" is partially due to this.

I have to quit now, because I am starting to agree with you Peja is the most expandable and quite honest his own worst enemy. If he continues like this we would be silly to not get rid of him while we can get something back in return.

 

[SacTownKid]

Not applicable, imho, as the Spurs have always had length and athleticism in their front court to mask perimeter defensive weaknesses. If Parker were a King his defense would be seen as Bibby-esque. If our perimeter guys pressure the ball and get beat, it means an uncontested layup. On the Spurs, that's just called "funneling the ball to the shotblocker".

Of course, Spurs also have that all-NBA perimeter defender as well, but other than him, I don't think any of the Spurs perimeter defenders are above average. I still recall David Aldridge saying years ago when Bowen played for the Heat and was a free agent that any team that signed him would automatically get better defensively, and that Bowen could help push a contender over the top. Guess DA knows what he's talking about (still don't know why ESPN got rid of him, btw).

I wonder what Bibby would look like in a Spurs uni? I think I remember seeing that defensive stud, what was it? Glenn Robinson was his name. He played for the Spurs last year. If the perimeter players for the Spurs played with the effort of ours, not even TD could clean up all that mess. He would have to get 7 or 8 blocks a night himself to compensate. Next time you watch the Spurs look at the EFFORT they put in on defense.

 

[4cwebb]

Yeah, see ... if Deng isn't a defender than I wouldn't want the deal.

I'd want a defender. I could care less if the guy averaged 5 points on offense on 4 shots. We need a guy that doesn't want or need the ball.

I'd love Bonzi even more if he was willing to take that role. The 9-10 shots a game guy that is just about hustle and roleplay.

That to me would be a slight waste of Bonzi's offensive talents, and if the Kings jettison Peja, hopefully wouldn't be necessary.

And even if Deng isn't a super defender, or even a better than average defender, if he's going to give effort on defense and the boards, he's an upgrade.

To me, getting a solid perimeter defender at this point isn't going to make that much of a difference for this team defensively. Defense starts from the inside out, and with Reef and Brad, the inside is already subpar. That's why a mention of Bosh being avaiable if he isn't going to resign with Toronto mentioned in a thread on the NBA forum intrigues me. That's a start to turning around the defense.

 

[BigWaxer]

BLAME BLAME BLAME... Just a bad mix of players. I don't think any coach, extra effort from a benchy not currently getting minutes will change what the end result is. This team is not good, time for a real rebuild.

 

[4cwebb]

Ack - I meant Gordon.

Oh, ok. BJax part 2. That would be fine with me. Don't know if the Bulls would be that crazy, but Petrie has pulled bigger rabbits out of his hat than Gordon.

 

[playmaker0017]

I was thinking -

Why not go after a stud defensive PF or C?

Shift Reef over to SF, but have him play more like a PF. Kind of KGish.

Our offense is unique enough to get him the ball properly.

I know people tend to think Reef is a poor defender, but he held his own last year as a SF against McGrady and his ilk. Right now, I think Reef might be the best defender on our starting roster - and that's just .... sad.

 

[Zyphen]

Did you watch Seattle game about 3 weeks ago?

Who's blaming Peja for that one? We just choked at the end. If anything it was our bench and horrible rebounding from our front 2, letting the Sonics have all those offensive boards.

 

[Kings113]

Deng is a stud but he really is a player that needs the ball and his go to moves are all solo plays going to the basket. He isn't that exceptional on D either. He boards better though. Nocioni is an energy guy on D, I would like him.

Deng's versatile on offense, being a pretty good shooter as well, now (been loving and watching the Bulls ever since their revival as a good team). His defense isn't bad. Nocioni I really like also, guy is so scrappy. But not sure if Petrie would do that as Nocioni being the main piece. I'd take Pargo or Piatkowski or someone with Deng.

http://www.hoopshype.com/players/luol_deng.htm

 

[SacTownKid]

I was thinking -

Why not go after a stud defensive PF or C?

Shift Reef over to SF, but have him play more like a PF. Kind of KGish.

Our offense is unique enough to get him the ball properly.

I know people tend to think Reef is a poor defender, but he held his own last year as a SF against McGrady and his ilk. Right now, I think Reef might be the best defender on our starting roster - and that's just .... sad.

Reef at SF? I didn't pay attention much to his D in Portland, but I wouldn't think he could hold his own against most 3's being a lot heavy than his early days at the 3 in Vancouver. I have been opposed to moving him to the 3 but you know more about him as a player than I do so maybe its another possibility.

 

[yanon]

Peja has peaked in term of player development. So, the Kings should show case him more when he is healthy. Then the management should trade Peja for something to avoid over paying or lose him for nothing during the offseason.
Deng is pretty much an unknown. I still hold out for that slim chance of acquiring KG for two of our big three.

 

[playmaker0017]

That to me would be a slight waste of Bonzi's offensive talents, and if the Kings jettison Peja, hopefully wouldn't be necessary.

Bonzi isn't really talented offensively.

He's a good garbage man. If you've noticed, he gets the majority of his stuff on hustle/garbage plays. It's when he decides to play MJ that things get ugly.

If he did his garbageman thing - he'd get 10-12 shots a game and shoot 50%.

And even if Deng isn't a super defender, or even a better than average defender, if he's going to give effort on defense and the boards, he's an upgrade.

That's why a mention of Bosh being avaiable if he isn't going to resign with Toronto mentioned in a thread on the NBA forum intrigues me. That's a start to turning around the defense.

That's intriguing.

That would fit in with my whole slide Reef to SF concept ... or possibly move Bosh to C?

 

[BigWaxer]

Reef is not a dominate anything. A good trade piece but nothing more and he wont bring us a ring if that's what your all wondering.

 

[4cwebb]

I wonder what Bibby would look like in a Spurs uni? I think I remember seeing that defensive stud, what was it? Glenn Robinson was his name. He played for the Spurs last year. If the perimeter players for the Spurs played with the effort of ours, not even TD could clean up all that mess. He would have to get 7 or 8 blocks a night himself to compensate. Next time you watch the Spurs look at the EFFORT they put in on defense.

Sorry, my initial response wasn't clear. Yes, the Spurs organization demands that players play with effort on the defensive end, and yes, it has an impact.

But it's first and foremost about personnel, imho, and without David Robinson or Tim Duncan on that team during the last 15 years, I don't think the amount of effort would've led to similar results. If you swapped rosters completely, do you think Poppovich could get this Kings' team to achieve the same defensive results just b/c he preaches effort on defense? Seems unlikely imho.

And I don't recall Glenn Robinson (or Brent Barry, or Hedo, or anyone not named Bowen) coming up with huge perimeter stops on anyone in any significant play during the Spurs title run last season (or the season before, for that matter). I could easily be mistaken as I didn't watch many of the games.

 

[Zyphen]

Reef is a terrible defender. Wells is our best (meaning average by league standards). Peja's regressed from average to just bad.

 

[SacTownKid]

Deng's versatile on offense, being a pretty good shooter as well, now (been loving and watching the Bulls ever since their revival as a good team). His defense isn't bad. Nocioni I really like also, guy is so scrappy. But not sure if Petrie would do that as Nocioni being the main piece.

http://www.hoopshype.com/players/luol_deng.htm

Deng is a pretty good shooter but if the idea was to replace Peja with defense and hustle, Nocioni is the way to go. Of course I wouldn't condone a deal where Nocioni is the main piece but he is scrappy.

Wait did yet another thread turn into a trade thread?

 

[Ryle]

INext time you watch the Spurs look at the EFFORT they put in on defense.

This is one time where I could agree about "the" effort. The Spurs are not all great individual defenders but if they don't play defense Pop will make them sit.....unlike our coach who doesn't seem to care.

 

[playmaker0017]

Reef at SF? I didn't pay attention much to his D in Portland, but I wouldn't think he could hold his own against most 3's being a lot heavy than his early days at the 3 in Vancouver. I have been opposed to moving him to the 3 but you know more about him as a player than I do so maybe its another possibility.

Reef would be an UPGRADE defensively to Peja at the 3. There's no question about that.

But, in order to do it properly, we'd need a solid interior presence. A guy that wants to send everything that is funneled inwards to the 6th row.

The reason Reef was successful defensively was because he knew he had help behind him. So, he played with a little more intensity and took more gambles. Having Theo Ratliff or Joel Przybilla cleaning up messes takes a load off.

So - that's the key. If we get another "nancy" ... moving Reef to SF would be a mistake.

 

[SacTownKid]

Sorry, my initial response wasn't clear. Yes, the Spurs organization demands that players play with effort on the defensive end, and yes, it has an impact.

But it's first and foremost about personnel, imho, and without David Robinson or Tim Duncan on that team during the last 15 years, I don't think the amount of effort would've led to similar results. If you swapped rosters completely, do you think Poppovich could get this Kings' team to achieve the same defensive results just b/c he preaches effort on defense? Seems unlikely imho.

And I don't recall Glenn Robinson (or Brent Barry, or Hedo, or anyone not named Bowen) coming up with huge perimeter stops on anyone in any significant play during the Spurs title run last season (or the season before, for that matter). I could easily be mistaken as I didn't watch many of the games.

That was all the gab last year that even Big Dog was playing D in San Antonio. Don't know if it was all that true, but I did see him busting his butt on D more than ever before.

 

[playmaker0017]

Reef is a terrible defender.

Go back and watch the games.

Reef is a very good man-on defender. He's an average to just a tad below average on team defense. He's not intimidating, but he's not a poor defender.

Wells is our best (meaning average by league standards).

Wells was our best, but has played very poorly.

 

[Bricklayer]

This is one time where I could agree about "the" effort. The Spurs are not all great individual defenders but if they don't play defense Pop will make them sit.....unlike our coach who doesn't seem to care.

Their coach is also their GM and has built his team around guys who are, were, and always have been excellent defenders. He gets his non-defenders to buy in too, but the key is the studs capable of not only shutting down their own man, but making everybody else better too. Not too different from the way it was here when we were a good defensive team. Bibby and Peja were the same players, but they fed off of, were inspired by, and raised their effort to match the defensive efforts of their teammates.

If GEOFF trades for Ben Wallace tommorow, our defense instantly takes a huge step forward. And not because Rick suddenly remembers how to coach it.

Personnel. Look to the man in charge of personnel.

 

[playmaker0017]

But it's first and foremost about personnel, imho, and without David Robinson or Tim Duncan on that team during the last 15 years, I don't think the amount of effort would've led to similar results. If you swapped rosters completely, do you think Poppovich could get this Kings' team to achieve the same defensive results just b/c he preaches effort on defense? Seems unlikely imho.

I disagree.

I think Pop would definitely have us playing serious defense. We wouldn't be standouts, but I guarantee we would see Skinner get some minutes when Brad refuses to body up.

The whole game would be paced to keep us going on defense.

Just like RA can get great performance from players offensively ... I think Pop can get guiys playing D.

 

[yanon]

Brick,

I don't think Rick will play Ben Wallace in the starting lineup because he obviously love offense more than anything else.

 

[Zyphen]

The only reason Portland used Reef at the 3 was because of their logjam at PF. They knew Reef was being underutilized but they didn't have any better alternatives. It would be stupid to put ourselves in that situation. We might as well trade both Reef and Peja. And I don't know what game you're watching, self-proclaimed Reef homer, but the guy is no better than Peja at defense.

 

[4cwebb]

Bonzi isn't really talented offensively.

He's a good garbage man. If you've noticed, he gets the majority of his stuff on hustle/garbage plays. It's when he decides to play MJ that things get ugly.

If he did his garbageman thing - he'd get 10-12 shots a game and shoot 50%.

I think Bonzi's just playing a bit of the 5th wheel on offense with this Kings team (as the SG did during the glory years) because the other 4 players need to play bigger roles in the offense (otherwise, what's the point of any of them being on the floor?).

But back in the days when the Blazers were feared as the most talented team in the NBA, Bonzi averaged 17 and 15 ppg in about 31 minutes per game. I also recall him going off on the Mavericks in a playoff series a few years ago. I think he could easily be a solid third option for this team on offense, if not a second option, but the problem is that he's playing with 4 guys that are better offensive talents than he is. To me, that doesn't mean his isn't talented offensively.

 

[Kings113]

Deng is a pretty good shooter but if the idea was to replace Peja with defense and hustle, Nocioni is the way to go. Of course I wouldn't condone a deal where Nocioni is the main piece but he is scrappy.

Wait did yet another thread turn into a trade thread?

Deng is athletic, long, can board, block shots (not 1BPG, but still).

I'd take either Nocioni or Deng, but to choose one, I'd probabaly take Luol Deng.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/luol_deng/index.html

Deng is also coming off the bench for the Bulls.

Hell yes it did turn into another trade thread.

 

[playmaker0017]

Their coach is also their GM and has built his team around guys who are, were, and always have been excellent defenders.

Personnel. Look to the man in charge of personnel.

Brick,

The only thing is - RA signed off on all player movement and acquisitions.

This IS his team. This IS the roster he wanted.