Again, how is any of this a surprise?
Again, how is any of this a surprise?
FaStRmAn
Starter
Carmichael Dave loses more credibility every time he speaks. No I am not surprised. Even if there were dissatisfaction within the ranks, now is not the time to voice it or give it credence. This may be the most difficult stretch of games ANY team has had in recent memory to start a season. It's almost like the schedule maker decided to see if he could stack the deck against the Kings at the beginning of the season to see if the pressure cooker would explode. But the schedule will even out over 82. Let this thing have time to fully cook. We are looking in the oven wondering why the souffle has not risen, just itching to open the door and dump the pan.
Letsgokings13
Starter
Thibs anyone? Lol
macadocious
Starter
Lol that CD is losing credibility.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Not sure how CD is to blame for any of this. Cuz made it public. Difficult stretch or not, a playoff team is going to win a few of those games. Especially when you're desperate to win. So the struggle and disfunction on the court is already out there for all to see.
Explain the losing of credibility part. Just curious.
SMH, here we go again...
Whether you like him or not, firing Karl now would surely send us back to the lottery. What is the deal with our pick next year. Someone remind me in what scenario do the Sixers get our pick?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I am disappoint in myself for not making a post yesterday that I had been thinking about just how many losses it would take for Karl to get in trouble. 1-7 seemed kind of a low-end preseason prediction for our start, I thought that would not exceed downward expectations enough to do it. But what if we were to lose to Detroit? Or get sideways then as a team and drop another one. Does 1-10 do it? National media may be right about Vivek in some ways -- he canned Malone at 11-13 after he was winning with Cuz. 1-11? You had to figure we were approaching the sorts of numbers that would start causing alarm bells for a front office/owner who really do want to win for that new arena.
It really shouldn't be this hard btw. We spend a tremendous amount of time on here wringing our hands about golly gosh, how can we reach the Eden of mediocrity. It should not be this hard.
I still have a hard time imagining Karl is in trouble, or wants to be in trouble, so quick. This was the guy who wanted back in the game so badly last year. Unless losing the power struggle this summer just took his heart out of things. But I'm not seeing the old focused feisty Karl at all. he seems disengaged, and a like he's running an experiment or something where the wins or losses resulting are really not so important as being cutting edge, or something. Its odd.
There are indeed some excellent coaches sitting at home right now with NorCal/this roster ties. Thibodeua, Scott Brooks...you are talking former COYs who have been to the Confernce Finals/Finals in the past 5 years. Thibs knows Cuz/Rudy, has coached Rondo/Belinelli, he'd walk right in and half the roster would be "his guys". Brooks is a NorCal native, features stars, likes frontcourts of defensive big men. But obviously such a mess to do that AGAIN unless we've already been in contact with those guys all along. And its really hard to mesh Vivek's philosophy, or Vlade's statements about preferred playstyle with those coaches. I'm absolutely up for it, but so hard to see.
It really shouldn't be this hard btw. We spend a tremendous amount of time on here wringing our hands about golly gosh, how can we reach the Eden of mediocrity. It should not be this hard.
I still have a hard time imagining Karl is in trouble, or wants to be in trouble, so quick. This was the guy who wanted back in the game so badly last year. Unless losing the power struggle this summer just took his heart out of things. But I'm not seeing the old focused feisty Karl at all. he seems disengaged, and a like he's running an experiment or something where the wins or losses resulting are really not so important as being cutting edge, or something. Its odd.
There are indeed some excellent coaches sitting at home right now with NorCal/this roster ties. Thibodeua, Scott Brooks...you are talking former COYs who have been to the Confernce Finals/Finals in the past 5 years. Thibs knows Cuz/Rudy, has coached Rondo/Belinelli, he'd walk right in and half the roster would be "his guys". Brooks is a NorCal native, features stars, likes frontcourts of defensive big men. But obviously such a mess to do that AGAIN unless we've already been in contact with those guys all along. And its really hard to mesh Vivek's philosophy, or Vlade's statements about preferred playstyle with those coaches. I'm absolutely up for it, but so hard to see.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Perhaps, perhaps not.
As mentioned there are a couple of top coaches out there if you really were serious and had them on the other line. It seems weird to me that things would have progressed so quickly, but you get a Brooks or Thibodeau coming in here, and these are guys who haven't missed the playoffs in half a decade, same as Karl.
Certainly seems easier for the players just to get together, go to Karl and ask for some tweaks, for Karl to say "ok guys sounds fair" and implement them, and for us to go on down the road.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I don't think you understand Cuz very well, few seem to. I think I do, because some of his traits remind me of me in my athlete years. The emotional control is wildly different, but Cuz's like/loyalty function runs much the same way. He's not going to like/trust many, and that like/trust is going to be earned through trusting him. But once somebody does manage to be liked/trusted, Cuz will run through walls for him. The more straight ahead the coach the better.
I an watching Dave's tweets with interest, surprised that Karl would have so little power left so quickly. Makes me think the leaks about Vivek thinking of firing him could be true. or maybe that's just causing everybody to read in more danger than is immediately here.
Maybe Vlade made all the roster changes with another coach in mind or more accurately, what would be best to surround Cousins and Gay with. Karl doesn't fit that style. Does Thibs fit this style? I'm going to say yes as he and Malone seem like a close fit......defense first, tough nosed coach who is not afraid to get into players.....but then again, this is all speculation.
SacKings384
Starter
Who would have thought that in a league that was basically Karl's system before he retired would be so ill-fitted for his current "system". I say "system" because it appears AGAIN that we have no system at all. Perhaps Cousins and Rudy are such black holes offensively that in this fast paced offense there's just no way to get the ball moving? I don't know. We've been through so many coaches, but the Kings are playing uninspired ball.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
That was a replay of a preseason game
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Count me in as one who thinks that Tom T could be an ideal style coach for this roster
Kingster
Hall of Famer
They aren't going to fire Karl. If they do they would be even more of a laughingstock than they already are. It would be a dumb move by Vlade to do so. Around the league his name would be linked to the dysfunction of the Kings organization, an organization that is now synonymous with dysfunction. Instead of being looked upon as the guy who is turning a new page and establishing a new culture, he'd be identified with the old lousy dysfunction.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Unless we bring on an established coach like Thibs, and start winning. Then the move will be seen as gutsy.
Given how many new players we have, injuries, and the difficulty of our early schedule, I think it's a bit early to fire Karl.
Buuuuuut..... the red flags are all there. He's misusing our two best players. His style doesn't fit the roster. His rotations are awful. He's clearly disengaged.
We probably can him around the all-star break if we don't improve.
Draft2007
G-League
Normally I would agree with you but Vlade doesn't strike me as someone who really cares much about what the media thinks. If he flames out here it's going to be a while before he gets anywhere near this high of a level in an NBA front office. Simply put, George Karl is not working and probably will never work unless he pulls a Pop and changes his system to fit the player's strengths. Karl is the last of the Mullin/PDA stink so the national media may pile some more if they do fire him but in reality Vlade didn't ask for the coaching mess, he just inherited it. Let the national media hate us all they want, I just care about finally winning some games again!
Sac.Kings
All-Star
I know this is not the point of your post, but we are totally gonna get creamed by Detroit. Unless the Kings team from the Clippers games shows up.
kingjatt
Starter
I think its becoming more and more clear that Karl used the Twitter campaign by kings fans last year to rob Vivek and get one last multi-million dollar payout before he heads off into retirement. He shows no passion, no urgency, does not teach or hold players accountable during the game and as displayed last night the players are frustrated by it.
I think the money owned to Karl is the biggest hurdle to firing him, as rich as Vivek is I doubt he wants to eat another contract. But he made a mistake by caving to a fan uproar for Karl last year so he either takes the hit and fires him or watches another season go to waste with the end of Boogies contract looming and no draft picks in sight.
As an aside I would love to have Brooks or Thibs in here but I doubt they take this mess mid-season, how sure are we that they are as desperate as Karl was to jump right in mid-season.
This all seems like payback from Karl for the power struggle he lost over the summer, he is putting the kings in spot where he is daring them to fire him, knowing that they have to reluctantly pay up and beg/overpay another coach to take on this chaos.
Vlade had a great off-season but the biggest mistake he made was not canning Karl as soon as he heard the trade Cousins poopoo.
John Galt
Starter
If Vlade is who we all think and hope he is, then maybe he can get in Cuz's ear and as a result the reports out of the players only meeting will diffuse the "Karl must go" chatter.
Best case for Kings fans is that we turn the corner and reel off some wins. We don't need a twitter explosion right now. We need a .500 season
Best case for Kings fans is that we turn the corner and reel off some wins. We don't need a twitter explosion right now. We need a .500 season
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Things like this don't happen in a vacuum. A few here, more than a few actually, have been talking about how poor of a fit this system is, that training camp was essentially wasted, that Karl's greatly misusing two of our top players in Rudy/Cuz, that his preference to turn to small ball every time he's met with a challenge doesn't play to our strengths, etc.
Thing is, players do this for a living. If we notice, they notice. I'm not surprised at all that players aren't on board with it. It's easy for some fans to sit behind a keyboard and say "buy in, play hard, do what the man says", but NBA careers are short, last year was completely wasted, if as a player you know the roster will not be maximized and the system does not fit, not to mention going 1-7, you're already going to start thinking about potentially another wasted season, that even if you do have success it's going to be in spite of the challenges, an uphill battle.
And despite what any fans think about the national media, if Karl loses the trust of his main guys and loses the locker room, a change flat out needs to be made. And let's not pretend things have been rosy with Karl and it's just a bad start. Karl and Cuz clashed this summer, Vlade and Karl clashed this summer. If you think firing Karl and replacing him with someone else would make us look bad(and btw, the sooner we do it, the more likely it is a top coach would sign on with more of the season to work with), just imagine what would happen if we continue to slide, guys like Rondo/Cuz start speaking up more in the media, dysfunction grows and really, it becomes a toxic sideshow. It would become a huge mess. Best bet might be to convince Karl to walk away, both sides agree it didn't work out and go on their way.
I said all summer not firing Karl would likely be a huge mistake and issues would pop up this season. They'd fester. You can't sweep personalities like his and Rondo/Cuz under the rug. But I'm surprised Karl stuck to his system as much as he has. I'm surprised it's happening so quickly. But if our top players don't believe in you and your system, you gotta go. Otherwise we're just wasting time.
BTW, it wouldn't make Vlade look that bad as Karl isn't Vlade's guy. Karl is the one obstacle remaining from the PDA/Mullin era. Probably figured he'll give it a go and try to make it work. But this idea fire Karl and no decent coach would come here is kinda foolish if you ask me. There's only 30 NBA coaching jobs. This one has arguably the top young big in the game, Rondo/Rudy, a top pick in WCS, role players like Belli/Kosta, essentially the most attractive roster we've had in over a decade plus a new arena coming next year. You might not get JVG to drop his ESPN gig for it but Thibs/Brooks/Jackson/McMillan types, I'd be shocked if they wouldn't be interested. I don't think we need a great coach btw, just someone who's more defensive minded, will slow it down and muck it up a little, and a guy with some energy who has more an appearance of "fighting for and with" the players. X's and O's are important, I won't understate that, but just as important is having a team buy into you, trust you, both sides fighting for each other. Without the latter, it just won't work. Malone wasn't a great X's and O's guy, but the team sure as hell fought for him and he for the team.
Thing is, players do this for a living. If we notice, they notice. I'm not surprised at all that players aren't on board with it. It's easy for some fans to sit behind a keyboard and say "buy in, play hard, do what the man says", but NBA careers are short, last year was completely wasted, if as a player you know the roster will not be maximized and the system does not fit, not to mention going 1-7, you're already going to start thinking about potentially another wasted season, that even if you do have success it's going to be in spite of the challenges, an uphill battle.
And despite what any fans think about the national media, if Karl loses the trust of his main guys and loses the locker room, a change flat out needs to be made. And let's not pretend things have been rosy with Karl and it's just a bad start. Karl and Cuz clashed this summer, Vlade and Karl clashed this summer. If you think firing Karl and replacing him with someone else would make us look bad(and btw, the sooner we do it, the more likely it is a top coach would sign on with more of the season to work with), just imagine what would happen if we continue to slide, guys like Rondo/Cuz start speaking up more in the media, dysfunction grows and really, it becomes a toxic sideshow. It would become a huge mess. Best bet might be to convince Karl to walk away, both sides agree it didn't work out and go on their way.
I said all summer not firing Karl would likely be a huge mistake and issues would pop up this season. They'd fester. You can't sweep personalities like his and Rondo/Cuz under the rug. But I'm surprised Karl stuck to his system as much as he has. I'm surprised it's happening so quickly. But if our top players don't believe in you and your system, you gotta go. Otherwise we're just wasting time.
BTW, it wouldn't make Vlade look that bad as Karl isn't Vlade's guy. Karl is the one obstacle remaining from the PDA/Mullin era. Probably figured he'll give it a go and try to make it work. But this idea fire Karl and no decent coach would come here is kinda foolish if you ask me. There's only 30 NBA coaching jobs. This one has arguably the top young big in the game, Rondo/Rudy, a top pick in WCS, role players like Belli/Kosta, essentially the most attractive roster we've had in over a decade plus a new arena coming next year. You might not get JVG to drop his ESPN gig for it but Thibs/Brooks/Jackson/McMillan types, I'd be shocked if they wouldn't be interested. I don't think we need a great coach btw, just someone who's more defensive minded, will slow it down and muck it up a little, and a guy with some energy who has more an appearance of "fighting for and with" the players. X's and O's are important, I won't understate that, but just as important is having a team buy into you, trust you, both sides fighting for each other. Without the latter, it just won't work. Malone wasn't a great X's and O's guy, but the team sure as hell fought for him and he for the team.
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
No it won't. It would just be another roll of the eyes around the league. You fire a HOFer coach in the first 10 games because you start the season with poor performance.
It would be a throwaway line on ESPN - if you don't know what to say just mention the Kings and their antics and you'll get a laugh, or at least a smile. Vlade would be part of the same ol' mess that they've been associated with for more than a decade. And then hypothetically you bring in Thibs, he's not going to save the season, not in mid-season. It just gives the players a pass - new coach, new system, it's all tough, now let me go through the motions for the rest of the season. Forget it.So what happens if we do fire Karl and bring in a Thibs or Brooks (very unlikely, considering how we treat coaches) and nothing changes? Do you fire them as well? When is the onus finally put on the players to start performing?
If Vlade didn't want Karl, he should have fired him in the offseason, plain and simple. But he didn't and he all we heard is how everyone loves everyone and people are on the same page. If you fire Karl at the first sign of a struggle, who's one of the most respected coaches and person in the league, we just aren't getting any name head coach here again. Why would Thibs or Brooks consider us when they can basically take their pick of coaching jobs, both in the NBA and in college?
This tweet by Deuce sums up the situation perfectly:
Deuce Mason @DeuceMason 55m55 minutes ago
Karl has coached 38 games with the Kings. Collison has missed 32 of those games, Cousins-15 of those games and Rudy-10 of those games.
Give this thing time
If Vlade didn't want Karl, he should have fired him in the offseason, plain and simple. But he didn't and he all we heard is how everyone loves everyone and people are on the same page. If you fire Karl at the first sign of a struggle, who's one of the most respected coaches and person in the league, we just aren't getting any name head coach here again. Why would Thibs or Brooks consider us when they can basically take their pick of coaching jobs, both in the NBA and in college?
This tweet by Deuce sums up the situation perfectly:
Deuce Mason @DeuceMason 55m55 minutes ago
Karl has coached 38 games with the Kings. Collison has missed 32 of those games, Cousins-15 of those games and Rudy-10 of those games.
Give this thing time
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Kingster
Hall of Famer
Vlade better care what the media thinks. He may have been viewed as the new knight in shiny armor when he came in here and made some good personnel moves, but he's going to look like bedraggled Don Quixote on a nag if he fires his HOFer coach, the guy he said he has such respect for. How is that going to affect his ability to bring FAs to this market? Players will take a pass on Sacramento. It's time to buckle up, suck it up, and to make it work with what we've got.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Who's we? Vlade's never fired a coach. Coaching candidates would be aware of the new FO and new regime. You appear to think candidates couldn't separate PDA/Mullin and Vlade. Karl simply isn't Vlade's guy, never was. A candidate would understand that, that he'd be the first coach Vlade is actually picking.
No it doesn't. DC or no DC has little impact on the system/philosophy the players and fans alike are questioning. It's not like if you have a healthy DC, everything else is fixed. That's foolish.
You appear to think the players are so incompetent they can't recognize the difference between the systematic issues and losing DC to a hamstring injury.
No way. We are not going to fire Karl this early in the season. When we fire one of the most respected coaches in the NBA, who do you think will even want to a HC in this mess??
It's been 7 games...and Cousins has missed 3? 4? Collison pf our best pg has missed 2?
Way too damn early.
It's been 7 games...and Cousins has missed 3? 4? Collison pf our best pg has missed 2?
Way too damn early.
ockingsfan
Starter
I really can't see Thibs walking into this hot mess right now. He will have a lot better options next off season.
IF Karl is fired, I think the only high profile coaching candidate that would have any interest in the Kings job mid-season would be Scott Brooks and that is due to his ties to Sacramento.
I think if Karl makes it through November, they will keep him for this year.
This next week will be critical to Karl's job. If they don't start winning ASAP, I think he will be gone by Thanksgiving.
IF Karl is fired, I think the only high profile coaching candidate that would have any interest in the Kings job mid-season would be Scott Brooks and that is due to his ties to Sacramento.
I think if Karl makes it through November, they will keep him for this year.
This next week will be critical to Karl's job. If they don't start winning ASAP, I think he will be gone by Thanksgiving.
Draft2007
G-League
That same HOF coach has pissed off our best player by trying to get him traded, continues to play players out of their natural positions, and has caused a mutiny between the players and coaching staff. It's like trying to build a foundation on top of quicksand. I admit that I was one of the strong advocates for George Karl when he got hired, but I was dead wrong. There comes a point where even HOF-level coaches lose the ability to connect with players and to make in game adjustments needed to win. It's unfortunate but I really think the cancer situation took all of the energy out of Karl, he is not the same coach that he was with the Sonics or even the Nuggets.
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