George Karl article on mellowing and legacy
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
I
Im Still Ballin
Guest
Living legend.
I'm not sure exactly what Karl has done that makes you think he's acting like a "dictator" as opposed to a "coach".
SacKings384
Starter
Odd that he is saying that he doesn't want to be a dictator, and then hearing Boogie say that he's struggling in the new offense being on the perimeter.
That still sounds like coaching to me. Coaches have different styles - Thibs is a defense-first coach, for instance, and if he came here he'd ask the team to play a very different defensive style than they were used to and perhaps even than they were suited to, but I don't think the "Karl is a dictator" crowd would accuse Thibs of the same thing for imposing his style.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Yeah, I agree with you. You want a dictator type of coach then hire Calapari, although he does adjust his style somewhat to accommodate the players he has. I think to some extent, Karl is doing that. People have to realize that the system Karl is running is more complicated than the system Malone ran. It's requires more moving parts and all those parts being involved in almost every play. Think football mentality. As a result, it takes more time to refine a system like that, and to my mind, most of the parts, not all, but most have to fit that system.
One can argue that Cousins isn't a perfect fit, and I think Karl knows that. So he's trying to give Cousins a free reign on the offensive side, and trying to cover for him in transition. That was easier when he had WCS on the floor with Cuz. Willie was almost always the first one back in transition to protect the basket. We don't have that now, and at times Gay seems like a fish out of water in transition not knowing who he supposed to guard. Once in the half court, were decent, and at times, pretty good. All that aside, Cousins needs to make better decisions in crunch time. When were down four with time running out, we don't need him to stop and pop with a three pointer, and then the next time down the floor, pull up with a 20 footer. That was just plain stupid. Yeah, if they go in, he's a hero, but just not a good shot to take at that point.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Can't help but feel that something will erupt here pretty soon. Either Karl will be forced to change his approach both offensively and defensively or he will be gone by the all-star break. It's obvious that things are not working and players have not bought in completely and I don't think they will.
Knowing Karl, he is a VERY VERY stubborn man and I doubt he will change his approach. This leaves us with one thing, another change of coach mid-season and this time we better get it ****ing right. Divac absolutely needs to get this 100% right.
Knowing Karl, he is a VERY VERY stubborn man and I doubt he will change his approach. This leaves us with one thing, another change of coach mid-season and this time we better get it ****ing right. Divac absolutely needs to get this 100% right.
Problem is that even with this underperforming performance, Kings are in the thick for eight spot.
Any coach change brings high potential for short term additional losses. Is there enough time to make up for those losses before the end of the season?
If Kings were in the desperate position for playoff it would be easier to pull that trigger.
Any coach change brings high potential for short term additional losses. Is there enough time to make up for those losses before the end of the season?
If Kings were in the desperate position for playoff it would be easier to pull that trigger.
S
SacTownKing
Guest
Being in the hunt for a playoff spot is fine and all but the team has a bad record . Who would want to limp into the playoffs just to get annihilated by golden state .
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
After 9 years? We would.
But I would much much rather get it going enough to sneak into a higher seed.
Who would not. However, the step in that direction increases chance of no playoff at all.
I am not stating that status quo is good, but that nuances in situation should decide what is the best, nuances that only the guy in whom I trust (7ft Serbian) has.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I would.
I am working on my sense of humor. I have decided that after all these years I am a fan no matter what. If I live or die with each game or even each year, I will at least develop a terminal case of gas. I can't go that route.
Go Kings. Make me giggle.
S
SacTownKing
Guest
yeah but thats not a real playoff team thats a stupid scenerio that should never happen . a team with a losing record should never make the playoffs .
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
its happened a number of times.
In fact used to happen a lot back at one point -- the league expanded to 16 teams in the playoffs while there were still only 23 teams. So only 7 missed out, and a lot of bad teams made #7 and #8 every year.
Rarer now, but the East has been benefitting (depending on how you look at it) from weak East teams making the playoffs for years.
That's usually the reason why you hire a coach -- because you like his style, or you think it's effective anyway and you think it could be effective with your players. Presumably that's why "we" hired George Karl. The question is, who is it that hired George Karl and are they still with the team? I wonder if Vlade is actually in favor of 4 guard lineups and Rudy Gay at the C position. I wonder whether McLemore's development is still considered a priority by a coach and GM who didn't draft him. I wonder if Vlade is at all concerned that his coach has shown very little interest in utilizing WCS, the player he drafted 6th overall. Actually I just wonder what this organization wants right now. Last year it seemed no amount of losing was acceptable. We've gone from a mediocre defensive team to a terrible one and leveraged draft picks to do it. There's no way that can be acceptable. I'd like to see them stay true to their word and hold George Karl accountable.
ParniValjak
All-Star
We are back at the same spot we were with PDA and coach Malone. PDA did not hire Malone who is proving to be a very very good coach. So out of fear for his job security PDA sacks Malone in very cowardly circumstances.
We are in a very similar situation now. Karl was hired before Vlade, so really he is not Vlade's choice. Vlade will as he has been, try and make it work with what he has. However, if GM and the head coach are not on the same page, it will not work. One or both will go.
Putting aside my national allegiance with Vlade, I like the job that he has done so far. I think he gets it. I think he knows what needs to happen and how things need to look out there on the court. As someone mentioned, forget the name George Karl or his wins for the career but just look at the product on the floor that he has produced in his time here. None of us would be happy with that. If it was a first year coach we would have no hesitation of firing him now.
The team is not playing for their coach. This is at the core of this "crisis". The players have not bought in and don't look like buying in. They are not enjoying themselves out there. Its a chore.
Mike Malone took a less talented team last year and had a similar record to what Karl has now. Think about it, Malone had Collison, Cousins and Gay as his best players but he had those 3 along with JT and McLemore as the best starting 5 defensively in the entire league statistically. He had no Rondo, no Kosta, no Marco. He had those guys running through the wall for him because they loved playing for him. They had his back and he had theirs.
There is no that type of feel with this team now. Karl has his own agenda that he is pushing. His players are not buying into it and are not enjoying it and that is why you are seeing the type of inconsistencies and meltdowns that we are seeing out there. It is Karl's job to sell his vision to the players and make them believe! He has failed miserably so far not only with the players but with the fans. Most if us see what is wrong out there and what needs fixing but time and time again we are seeing the same issues and no adjustments.
This team has had one coach since Rick Adelman that they genuinely played for and that is Michael Malone. It's time for a change but a calculated and well executed one. First thing Vivek needs to decide is if Vlade is his guy long term. If he is, he needs to give him room to work and pick his own guy to take this team forward. Now that might be really difficult thing to do mid-season but maybe not. Maybe Brooks or Thibs are Divac's guys. He won't know until they have a conversation about how they see the players in this team utilized the best. I know that Vlade is a team first player. I know that he likes the free flowing offence that we had here in the Adelman days. so I am not sure that he would be a big fan of the smash mouth type basketball. He likes it when the ball moves. There is no reason why it can't move with this team but the type of system that Karl has implemented here is not suited to this team and most importantly, it's not suited to our franchise player that we should be building around.
Bottom line is, if Thibs or Brooks are Vlade's guys, then we need to make this change soon. I know that mid-season coach changes are not great but I feel if you get the right coach that this team respects and plays for, then it can be a catalyst for a turnaround and a play off run.
Without knowing any details, from the distance looking in, my preference would be Thibs because he already has existing relationships with the 3 main guys on this team. He was an assistant coach in Boston when Rondo was the PG on championship winning team and he had a good relationship with Cousins and Gay from the Team USA days. If my memory serves me correctly, he also coached Marco in Chicago. He is a defensive mastermind and knows how to use the players offensively, at least he knows how to use his key players offensively. Pau Gasol was re-born under Thibs' coaching after the forgettable time under Mr. Pringles who wanted to turn him into a players he is not (Sounds familiar with Cousins and Karl doesn't it?). I think he would trust Rondo enough to let him run the offense and I can't help but feel that the likes of WCS and McLemore might just flourish under his guidance as the defensive role players in his scheme.
Now the dream case scenario would be if we could trade Karl for Malone but I don't think Malone would want back after the way he was treated and I sure as hell am sure that Denver would not want Karl back either. Let's face it, you would have to be a major dickhead to get fired immediately after you win coach of the year award. There must be a big reason behind it and we might be seeing it here unfold in front of our own eyes.
We are in a very similar situation now. Karl was hired before Vlade, so really he is not Vlade's choice. Vlade will as he has been, try and make it work with what he has. However, if GM and the head coach are not on the same page, it will not work. One or both will go.
Putting aside my national allegiance with Vlade, I like the job that he has done so far. I think he gets it. I think he knows what needs to happen and how things need to look out there on the court. As someone mentioned, forget the name George Karl or his wins for the career but just look at the product on the floor that he has produced in his time here. None of us would be happy with that. If it was a first year coach we would have no hesitation of firing him now.
The team is not playing for their coach. This is at the core of this "crisis". The players have not bought in and don't look like buying in. They are not enjoying themselves out there. Its a chore.
Mike Malone took a less talented team last year and had a similar record to what Karl has now. Think about it, Malone had Collison, Cousins and Gay as his best players but he had those 3 along with JT and McLemore as the best starting 5 defensively in the entire league statistically. He had no Rondo, no Kosta, no Marco. He had those guys running through the wall for him because they loved playing for him. They had his back and he had theirs.
There is no that type of feel with this team now. Karl has his own agenda that he is pushing. His players are not buying into it and are not enjoying it and that is why you are seeing the type of inconsistencies and meltdowns that we are seeing out there. It is Karl's job to sell his vision to the players and make them believe! He has failed miserably so far not only with the players but with the fans. Most if us see what is wrong out there and what needs fixing but time and time again we are seeing the same issues and no adjustments.
This team has had one coach since Rick Adelman that they genuinely played for and that is Michael Malone. It's time for a change but a calculated and well executed one. First thing Vivek needs to decide is if Vlade is his guy long term. If he is, he needs to give him room to work and pick his own guy to take this team forward. Now that might be really difficult thing to do mid-season but maybe not. Maybe Brooks or Thibs are Divac's guys. He won't know until they have a conversation about how they see the players in this team utilized the best. I know that Vlade is a team first player. I know that he likes the free flowing offence that we had here in the Adelman days. so I am not sure that he would be a big fan of the smash mouth type basketball. He likes it when the ball moves. There is no reason why it can't move with this team but the type of system that Karl has implemented here is not suited to this team and most importantly, it's not suited to our franchise player that we should be building around.
Bottom line is, if Thibs or Brooks are Vlade's guys, then we need to make this change soon. I know that mid-season coach changes are not great but I feel if you get the right coach that this team respects and plays for, then it can be a catalyst for a turnaround and a play off run.
Without knowing any details, from the distance looking in, my preference would be Thibs because he already has existing relationships with the 3 main guys on this team. He was an assistant coach in Boston when Rondo was the PG on championship winning team and he had a good relationship with Cousins and Gay from the Team USA days. If my memory serves me correctly, he also coached Marco in Chicago. He is a defensive mastermind and knows how to use the players offensively, at least he knows how to use his key players offensively. Pau Gasol was re-born under Thibs' coaching after the forgettable time under Mr. Pringles who wanted to turn him into a players he is not (Sounds familiar with Cousins and Karl doesn't it?). I think he would trust Rondo enough to let him run the offense and I can't help but feel that the likes of WCS and McLemore might just flourish under his guidance as the defensive role players in his scheme.
Now the dream case scenario would be if we could trade Karl for Malone but I don't think Malone would want back after the way he was treated and I sure as hell am sure that Denver would not want Karl back either. Let's face it, you would have to be a major dickhead to get fired immediately after you win coach of the year award. There must be a big reason behind it and we might be seeing it here unfold in front of our own eyes.
Great points.....but really great point when referencing Pau Gasol's time in LA....classic example of how to not use a great player correctly and try and fit him into the coach's system irregardless. The same thing is happening here with Cuz. Karl and D'Antoni obviously need specific types of players for their system.
I think the hire should be Thibs if he would do it. He's the type of guy Cuz would respond to....cut from the same cloth as Malone. If not Thibs, I'd look at Doug Christie. I think he would bring back the old style of the Kings and he's obviously a defense first guy. This roster can win if it was utilized correctly.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Doug needs to get some serious coaching experience first somewhere before he should even be considered for a head coaching position in the NBA.
To me Thibs seems to be the least risky hire out there that has existing relationship with the key players on this team. The induction or buy in period if you like is likely not going to be a long one with Thibs. Most of the players know him, know what he is about and have a great deal of respect for him. If your top 3 guys buy in, the rest of the team will follow no doubt. I think he would utilise WCS well and turn him into a defensive NBA stud. A lot of the pieces that we have are somewhat similar to what he had in Chicago and they were a bloody good team when he was coaching them.
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