George Hill to the Cavaliers?

I wouldn't trade Willie for a pick that allows us to pick someone like Bridges. This is an extremely young team, and Willie is one of our "vets". We need some consistency and experience on the roster, and once the current vets are off the team, Willie will be the (or one of the) senior most guys. You don't trade that for an unknown.

I would trade Willie for someone like Paul George, but not for a rookie. As for cap space, this would be interesting. I do think that by 2019, we have the potential to be interesting to some good FAs. If we have a realistic shot at any, moving Willie for some picks to free up space could make sense. That said, I think sign and trade is more likely.
Did you just use WCS and consistency in the same sentence?
 
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I'm open to the discussion of whether WCS should or should not be on the Kings' team in the long term because 1) he's not the consistently good rebounder you need from the position, and 2) he can't draw the opposing team out to the 3 point line on defense, and 3) he doesn't have a consistent go-to move in the post. If somebody has a good counter argument, I'd like to hear it, but I don't see how he fits with Fox and I can't see the right player that you would have to complement his strengths and weaknesses. If you find the center that can do all of the above three things, then where exactly does WCS fit into the picture? My mind isn't made up on him, but I do have a lot of questions.
I think Bogi is the perfect complement to Willie. He rolls well on the pick and roll. He can hit the 20 ft pop and Bogs can throw those lobs all day and Willie can go get them. What hinders Willie are the spots he wants to be are filled with ZBo currently.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
...I like Willie but I question if he can be #1big on a very good team. His rebounding is a weakness. The rest of the skills are really well suited to a running team. He is our best defender and has potential to be All-NBA type of defender but he seems to be more focused on developing his offensive game.
I really, really, really, really caution people about passing judgment on WCS too soon. John Calipari doesn't pick losers. WCS is still coming into his own. Remember, until February of last year he played BEHIND the best big man in the league (IMHO). I do not see Vlade giving up on him, especially when the camera shows Vlade's face during the games when WCS is doing exactly what he's supposed to do.

WCS, Fox and Bogs are integral parts of the Kings going forward. If Jackson continues to improve, both he and Hield can probably be added to that mix. Throw in the best-case Giles, and we're looking at something pretty darned special.
 
I really, really, really, really caution people about passing judgment on WCS too soon. John Calipari doesn't pick losers. WCS is still coming into his own. Remember, until February of last year he played BEHIND the best big man in the league (IMHO). I do not see Vlade giving up on him, especially when the camera shows Vlade's face during the games when WCS is doing exactly what he's supposed to do.

WCS, Fox and Bogs are integral parts of the Kings going forward. If Jackson continues to improve, both he and Hield can probably be added to that mix. Throw in the best-case Giles, and we're looking at something pretty darned special.
Sure but part of improving is showing willingness to do it. Willie wants to be #1 option on this team. Let's face it, he will never be that good an offensive player. We are basically talking a perennial all-star type. He has been talking about it ever since DMC got traded and even while DMC was here, WCS has said he sees himself as a franchise level player in time.

He has shown that he CAN rebound when he wants to but to this point, he has not shown willingness to do it on a consistent basis. There is no reason why he should not be averaging 10 rpg. Absolutely none.

Now I do agree that Willie would be a FANTASTIC complement to a franchise level big (i.e someone who is an elite rebounder and can be a go to scorer or at the very least a great #2 option). That's why I have always been a fan of playing DMC and WCS together in the past because they complement each other really well.
 
I wouldn't trade Willie for a pick that allows us to pick someone like Bridges. This is an extremely young team, and Willie is one of our "vets". We need some consistency and experience on the roster, and once the current vets are off the team, Willie will be the (or one of the) senior most guys. You don't trade that for an unknown.

I would trade Willie for someone like Paul George, but not for a rookie. As for cap space, this would be interesting. I do think that by 2019, we have the potential to be interesting to some good FAs. If we have a realistic shot at any, moving Willie for some picks to free up space could make sense. That said, I think sign and trade is more likely.
Of course you'd trade Willie for someone like Paul George. Only problem is, no one on the planet would ever trade Paul George for Willie.

You have to give something up to get something.
 
Of course you'd trade Willie for someone like Paul George. Only problem is, no one on the planet would ever trade Paul George for Willie.

You have to give something up to get something.
Yes, which is what I mentioned in my post. If the deal happens in the summer of 2019, we can provide a big salary relief by trading George Hill (assuming he's still on the roster), which is better than trading an expiring since it gives immediate relief. Even then we'll need to add something, but hopefully not too much.

Teams trading stars are not getting a lot back these days. See what we got for DMC or even what Pacers got for George. That said, I agree that in each of those cases, teams were trading to avoid paying the super max, and were ready to get pennies on the dollar. OKC will certainly want more than some cap relief and a good young player. I do think though, that if the OKC are a tax paying team stuck in the middle of the Western conference, and our future looks brighter, both OKC and George might not be too averse to a trade.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
Sure but part of improving is showing willingness to do it. Willie wants to be #1 option on this team. Let's face it, he will never be that good an offensive player. We are basically talking a perennial all-star type. He has been talking about it ever since DMC got traded and even while DMC was here, WCS has said he sees himself as a franchise level player in time.

He has shown that he CAN rebound when he wants to but to this point, he has not shown willingness to do it on a consistent basis. There is no reason why he should not be averaging 10 rpg. Absolutely none.

Now I do agree that Willie would be a FANTASTIC complement to a franchise level big (i.e someone who is an elite rebounder and can be a go to scorer or at the very least a great #2 option). That's why I have always been a fan of playing DMC and WCS together in the past because they complement each other really well.
Sorry, but you're assuming facts not in evidence. With the growth of the players around them, he plus Bogs plus Fox have an almost unlimited potential. Want to see what he's really capable of? Put him out there with Giles and if that works, BONANZA!!!
 
Sure but part of improving is showing willingness to do it. Willie wants to be #1 option on this team. Let's face it, he will never be that good an offensive player. We are basically talking a perennial all-star type. He has been talking about it ever since DMC got traded and even while DMC was here, WCS has said he sees himself as a franchise level player in time.

He has shown that he CAN rebound when he wants to but to this point, he has not shown willingness to do it on a consistent basis. There is no reason why he should not be averaging 10 rpg. Absolutely none.

Now I do agree that Willie would be a FANTASTIC complement to a franchise level big (i.e someone who is an elite rebounder and can be a go to scorer or at the very least a great #2 option). That's why I have always been a fan of playing DMC and WCS together in the past because they complement each other really well.
I agree with all of this. WCS's impact is trending upwards, so I wouldn't trade him to trade him. But every time he's interviewed, he talks about his offense and how he wants to be a #1 guy. Then you see him forcing junk on the court and having those abysmal games.... yuck.

He COULD be a double/double defensive monster, but nothing shows me that he wants to be this. It is what is between the ears that makes me want to sell high on Willie. Besides the delusions of offensive grandeur, he's also incredibly inconsistent motor wise.

There's no way the dude is an untouchable roster piece.
 
Sorry, but you're assuming facts not in evidence. With the growth of the players around them, he plus Bogs plus Fox have an almost unlimited potential. Want to see what he's really capable of? Put him out there with Giles and if that works, BONANZA!!!
Hang on, aren't you doing exactly the same in the very next sentence?

What makes you certain that WCS will continue to grow?! You are assuming that he will but there is no facts that guarantee that he will!

If we really want to deal with facts then here is some
He is in his 3rd year averaging 12 ppg / 7 rpg / 1 spg and not even 1 bpg in 27 mpg

Here are some facts based purely on his production this season and nothing else.
He is NOT a good rebounder
He is NOT a #1 scoring option on a good team. Hell he is not one on a bad team like the Kings this season.

To be a number #1 option on a perennial play off team (read not a contender) you need to be as good as one of these guys i.e. WC standings at the moment):
Golden State - Curry/Durant
Rockets - Harden
San Antonio - Aldridge (Leonard when healthy)
Minnesota - Butler (or KAT)
OKC - Westbrook (even George for that matter)
Denver - Jokic???
Portland - Lillard (or even McCollum)
New Orleans - Davis and when healthy Cousins

Now I know that purple coloured glasses can be strong around here but please! No one in their right mind would put Willie in tha same ball park as any of those players!

And just to compare apples with apples, all of those players have been more productive players in their 3rd season than Willie has been even though he is having a breakout season. Hell most of those players were better by their 2nd season in the league and majority of them entered the league younger than WCS did.

WCS is a very good player and can be a very good starter on a perennial play off team in a certain role. Being #1 big is certainly not that role based on his production to date and comparisons to others in that position.
 
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Sure but part of improving is showing willingness to do it. Willie wants to be #1 option on this team. Let's face it, he will never be that good an offensive player. We are basically talking a perennial all-star type. He has been talking about it ever since DMC got traded and even while DMC was here, WCS has said he sees himself as a franchise level player in time.

He has shown that he CAN rebound when he wants to but to this point, he has not shown willingness to do it on a consistent basis. There is no reason why he should not be averaging 10 rpg. Absolutely none.

Now I do agree that Willie would be a FANTASTIC complement to a franchise level big (i.e someone who is an elite rebounder and can be a go to scorer or at the very least a great #2 option). That's why I have always been a fan of playing DMC and WCS together in the past because they complement each other really well.
There is a wide degree of perception on WCS. Personally, I’d keep Fox/Bogs/Hield/Skal/JJ and maybe even Giles ahead of him. He’s a tweener who doesn’t rebound/rim protect or affect the game with energy. Substantial value and I’d send him out. Although I respect everyone’s views who feel 180 from me (maybe the truth is in the middle?). We will keep him as I don’t think the market will be worth the risk

On a side note, how IT looked tonight and the Cavs win, they may want to hold onto him and hope he rounds into form
 
There is a wide degree of perception on WCS. Personally, I’d keep Fox/Bogs/Hield/Skal/JJ and maybe even Giles ahead of him. He’s a tweener who doesn’t rebound/rim protect or affect the game with energy. Substantial value and I’d send him out. Although I respect everyone’s views who feel 180 from me (maybe the truth is in the middle?). We will keep him as I don’t think the market will be worth the risk

On a side note, how IT looked tonight and the Cavs win, they may want to hold onto him and hope he rounds into form
WCS on his rookie deal is fine. The question is at what salary do you say good bye? Hopefully the Kings let him go restricted and let another team make the offer. Then they can decided.
 
WCS on his rookie deal is fine. The question is at what salary do you say good bye? Hopefully the Kings let him go restricted and let another team make the offer. Then they can decided.
Fortunately we have a year and a half to take a look, by that time it should be clear either way. He’s getting much better, even good on O, now can they make him passable in other facets. Even as a detractor, I think it can happen
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
Hang on, aren't you doing exactly the same in the very next sentence?
Nope. You stated he would NEVER be "that good an offensive player." I said that he, Fox and Bogs have "almost unlimited POTENTIAL," meaning he might be good.

It seems to me you've come to a verdict on him. I'm just not willing to go that far quite yet.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Sure but part of improving is showing willingness to do it. Willie wants to be #1 option on this team. Let's face it, he will never be that good an offensive player. We are basically talking a perennial all-star type. He has been talking about it ever since DMC got traded and even while DMC was here, WCS has said he sees himself as a franchise level player in time.

He has shown that he CAN rebound when he wants to but to this point, he has not shown willingness to do it on a consistent basis. There is no reason why he should not be averaging 10 rpg. Absolutely none.

Now I do agree that Willie would be a FANTASTIC complement to a franchise level big (i.e someone who is an elite rebounder and can be a go to scorer or at the very least a great #2 option). That's why I have always been a fan of playing DMC and WCS together in the past because they complement each other really well.
Must the franchise big be a good three point shooter? It would seem so to me; otherwise you have two bigs clogging the paint with nowhere to go for Fox. What do you think?
 

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
A 3-way trade going down with Jazz, Cavs and Kings. Hill to Cavs, Shumpert to Kings and from Jazz Joe Johnson. More shortly. Rodney Hood also to Cavs.
 
Nope. You stated he would NEVER be "that good an offensive player." I said that he, Fox and Bogs have "almost unlimited POTENTIAL," meaning he might be good.

It seems to me you've come to a verdict on him. I'm just not willing to go that far quite yet.
Way to take one sentence out of context of the whole post. Great work!
Must the franchise big be a good three point shooter? It would seem so to me; otherwise you have two bigs clogging the paint with nowhere to go for Fox. What do you think?
I think he needs to be able to stretch the floor but also play inside. I am confident that in time Fox will develop a consistent jump shot which will make the spacing less of an issue but ideally, yes your franchise big should be able to stretch the floor, attack off the bounce and post up. Essentially, a DeMarcus Cousins type of player would be ideal :D
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Must the franchise big be a good three point shooter? It would seem so to me; otherwise you have two bigs clogging the paint with nowhere to go for Fox. What do you think?
In today's league, what you want out of your center is entirely different than 10 years ago. It's all about spacing and opening up the lane so you can attack the basket, and break down the defense. If you have a slow plodding 7 footer in the lane, it defeats the purpose. Willie, to his credit is trying to turn himself into the modern version of an NBA center. Cuz figured it out a couple of years ago, and started developing his three pt shot. I don't know if Willie can ever be a franchise center, or player, but I admire his ambition.

What you need next to Willie is a PF that's a good rebounder, to help make up for Willie's deficiency in that area. Giles may well be that player, Even in his limited minutes at Duke, he rebounded the ball extremely well. He has huge hands and a nose for the ball. It will be interesting to see what a healthy Giles can accomplish. Interestingly enough, in an interview with Giles he was asked who was the hardest player for him to guard in practice. Yep, you guessed it, Willie! 2nd on the list was Randolph because of his strength.

Look, Willie made progress this season. You don't give up on a player just when he's starting to become what you hoped he would. I'm probably more optimistic about Willie than some, since I've been following him since highschool. My gut told me back then that this kid could be special some day. I still feel that way, rightly or wrongly.