Gay and Collison for Goran Dragic???
- Thread starter ockingsfan
- Start date
Lol.
Most of the posters in this thread are delusional. Heat are throwing us a bone here because they're ready to hit the reset button and actually give us a real #2 next to Cousins. Dragic is incredibly good when he doesn't have to share the back-court with another ball-dominant talent like Bledsoe/IT and Wade and his offensive ability fits well with the supplementary pieces we have around. Plus, it gets the better player, Casspi, into the starting lineup at SF. Plus, it clears up playing time conflicts that we have and sets a standard 9 man rotation into place.
Most of the posters in this thread are delusional. Heat are throwing us a bone here because they're ready to hit the reset button and actually give us a real #2 next to Cousins. Dragic is incredibly good when he doesn't have to share the back-court with another ball-dominant talent like Bledsoe/IT and Wade and his offensive ability fits well with the supplementary pieces we have around. Plus, it gets the better player, Casspi, into the starting lineup at SF. Plus, it clears up playing time conflicts that we have and sets a standard 9 man rotation into place.
As the trade is currently proposed, it's a bit lopsided. But let's be honest about the state of our team. Regardless of what happens this season, we are still HIGHLY unlikely to be a great free agent destination. Nobody wants to come here, even if we are overpaying. Gay is gone after this season, no doubt about it. Collison maybe not, but we've also jerked him around, starting Rondo in his place last season. If i had to guess, he's gone too. Dragic still has multiple years left on his contract, which isn't necessarily a bargain, but is a relatively realistic deal given the current market. It's also not like we don't have guys that can play the 3 if Gay is traded. We're deep right now.
That said, i would try and rework it a little bit, and try to get a little more value in return, but i don't see a huge downside to this trade. I think it gives us stability at the pg position, which we have not had in quite some time, and Dragic is a more than solid player.
That said, i would try and rework it a little bit, and try to get a little more value in return, but i don't see a huge downside to this trade. I think it gives us stability at the pg position, which we have not had in quite some time, and Dragic is a more than solid player.
Delusional in what way? The last time Dragic was a #2 option was 3 years ago when he was 27... he's 30 now.
The only time in his career where he averaged more than 16ppg was in the season where Bledsoe was injured. I don't see Dragic as a #2 scoring option. He's more of a #3 scorer.
Also not sure how his offensive ability would fit next to Cousins. Cousins is pretty meh in PnR offense for whatever reason. The offense Joeger is running requires the offense to be ran through Cousins in the high post. Not sure about you, but in each of our preseason games, I felt like the starting PG was extremely limited in the first 6-7 minutes of our game. They basically brought the ball up to Cousins, then never saw the ball again. I really don't feel like Joegers' offense would bring the best out of Dragic.
Dragic would NOT excel in a Mike Conley-type role. I'm honestly not a big fan of our offense, so hopefully Joeger can change it as the season starts. In only 21 MINUTES per game, Cousins averaged nearly 4TURNOVERS! That's really not going to work at all. This is mostly the result of Cousins playing up high the in post. It's because Joeger is forcing Cousins to make passes from up there. I think while Cousins is a good passer for a C, he's still NOWHERE near the caliber of Gasol. It's also because Joeger is forcing Cousins to create his own offense from the high post. While he can, I don't know if that's the best spot to put Cousins.
As of right now, I don't buy that Dragic is the same player he was 3 years ago. I also don't feel like he fits a Princeton-type offense or whatever Joeger is trying to run.
Also: not so sure about Casspi starting... I think he definitely fits next to Afflalo and Cousins better, but I don't think he's a starting SF. I'd honestly rather have Barnes start.
The only time in his career where he averaged more than 16ppg was in the season where Bledsoe was injured. I don't see Dragic as a #2 scoring option. He's more of a #3 scorer.
Also not sure how his offensive ability would fit next to Cousins. Cousins is pretty meh in PnR offense for whatever reason. The offense Joeger is running requires the offense to be ran through Cousins in the high post. Not sure about you, but in each of our preseason games, I felt like the starting PG was extremely limited in the first 6-7 minutes of our game. They basically brought the ball up to Cousins, then never saw the ball again. I really don't feel like Joegers' offense would bring the best out of Dragic.
Dragic would NOT excel in a Mike Conley-type role. I'm honestly not a big fan of our offense, so hopefully Joeger can change it as the season starts. In only 21 MINUTES per game, Cousins averaged nearly 4TURNOVERS! That's really not going to work at all. This is mostly the result of Cousins playing up high the in post. It's because Joeger is forcing Cousins to make passes from up there. I think while Cousins is a good passer for a C, he's still NOWHERE near the caliber of Gasol. It's also because Joeger is forcing Cousins to create his own offense from the high post. While he can, I don't know if that's the best spot to put Cousins.
As of right now, I don't buy that Dragic is the same player he was 3 years ago. I also don't feel like he fits a Princeton-type offense or whatever Joeger is trying to run.
Also: not so sure about Casspi starting... I think he definitely fits next to Afflalo and Cousins better, but I don't think he's a starting SF. I'd honestly rather have Barnes start.
Just so you know, Dragic has a defensive rating of 1.05, which may not blow your socks off, but is better than just about every player on the Kings. That says more about the Kings than it does Dragic. My concern with Dragic would be him staying healthy. A few years ago when with the Suns, most in the league considered him a rising star. Plus, if the idea is to play two PG's together, at least he's 6'3", and your not giving up as much height.
I hear what you're saying, but he's nowhere near known as a defensive minded player. And this team has repeated time and time again since Coach Joerger took over that they want to become a defensive minded team. Going out an acquiring players that aren't necessarily that doesn't accomplish the goal. I might still somewhat understand if his playmaking skills were that of Steve Nash in his prime or his scoring abilities were elite -- but they aren't. He's a slightly better version of Beno Udrih during his 4 years with the Kings. Yet quite a few are championing a trade of two current starters for that?? Help me out here.
Even if he is a good defensive player as some believe due to advanced stats (I don't buy into it), he's still not worth 2 freaking starters. It's highly debatable that he's even better than Darren Collison straight up. For arguments sake, let's say he is. It's not to the degree where you throw in Rudy Gay on top of it. Or throwing Collison on top of Gay -- however you choose to spin it.
Since we're all but certain that Rudy Gay won't be back or that we don't want him back regardless, I understand the idea of trying to get something for him. Same goes for Collison since he's a FA after the season. But don't just make a deal to make a deal. Gay could have more value to a team later in the season hence the Kings might get more in return. And Dragic on the books for the next 3 years at 17-19M isn't all that appealing.
Even if he is a good defensive player as some believe due to advanced stats (I don't buy into it), he's still not worth 2 freaking starters. It's highly debatable that he's even better than Darren Collison straight up. For arguments sake, let's say he is. It's not to the degree where you throw in Rudy Gay on top of it. Or throwing Collison on top of Gay -- however you choose to spin it.
Since we're all but certain that Rudy Gay won't be back or that we don't want him back regardless, I understand the idea of trying to get something for him. Same goes for Collison since he's a FA after the season. But don't just make a deal to make a deal. Gay could have more value to a team later in the season hence the Kings might get more in return. And Dragic on the books for the next 3 years at 17-19M isn't all that appealing.
I wouldn't mind Gay & Ben for Dragic.
Two other trades that could net the Kings a PG of the future would be:
Gay & McLemore to Minnesota for Pekovic's contract (out for the season, FA next summer), Shabazz Muhammad and Tyus Jones.
Gay to Oklahoma City for Ilyasova and Payne.
With that last deal I'd love to send Ilyasova elsewhere and return a third string SF (maybe to Houston for Brewer) and then deal Ben for a late 1st or early 2nd round pick.
Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
Cauley-Stein/Tolliver/Labissiere
Casspi/Barnes/Muhammad
Afflalo/Temple/Richardson
Collison/Lawson/Jones
or
Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
Cauley-Stein/Tolliver/Labissiere
Casspi/Barnes/Brewer
Afflalo/Temple/Richardson
Collison/Lawson/Payne
Two other trades that could net the Kings a PG of the future would be:
Gay & McLemore to Minnesota for Pekovic's contract (out for the season, FA next summer), Shabazz Muhammad and Tyus Jones.
Gay to Oklahoma City for Ilyasova and Payne.
With that last deal I'd love to send Ilyasova elsewhere and return a third string SF (maybe to Houston for Brewer) and then deal Ben for a late 1st or early 2nd round pick.
Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
Cauley-Stein/Tolliver/Labissiere
Casspi/Barnes/Muhammad
Afflalo/Temple/Richardson
Collison/Lawson/Jones
or
Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
Cauley-Stein/Tolliver/Labissiere
Casspi/Barnes/Brewer
Afflalo/Temple/Richardson
Collison/Lawson/Payne
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I can see Vlade pulling off this trade, it makes sense for both teams:
Why Kings do it?: A sulking Rudy Gay is no good to the Kings trying to turn around team culture and start winning. The more he sulks, the further his trade value will drop, once the season starts. I like DC, but he is going to miss 10% of the season and is an unrestricted free agent next year. Also, the Kings need to pull a 2 for 1 trade at some point or cut one of the players currently on the team by Monday.
Why the Heat do it? Goran Dragic is a win now type of player and I think the Pat Riley knows his team is not ready to compete for a ring this year. I know how Riley operates, he is going to want to dump every big salary player, except for Whiteside and go after 2 big name free agents next summer, to get a big 3 again. Rudy and DC gives him a 1 year stop gap and a big salary cap dump in the summer.
Why Kings do it?: A sulking Rudy Gay is no good to the Kings trying to turn around team culture and start winning. The more he sulks, the further his trade value will drop, once the season starts. I like DC, but he is going to miss 10% of the season and is an unrestricted free agent next year. Also, the Kings need to pull a 2 for 1 trade at some point or cut one of the players currently on the team by Monday.
Why the Heat do it? Goran Dragic is a win now type of player and I think the Pat Riley knows his team is not ready to compete for a ring this year. I know how Riley operates, he is going to want to dump every big salary player, except for Whiteside and go after 2 big name free agents next summer, to get a big 3 again. Rudy and DC gives him a 1 year stop gap and a big salary cap dump in the summer.
If Riley was smart, he'd flip Gay & Collison to a 3rd team for expirings that are not as good of players as Gay/Collison while getting picks in return. The pluses would be...
If you're the Kings, you by no means want that 3rd team to be in the western conference. We're competing for a playoff spot this year. I don't want to help another western conference team get better. Orlando might be a good 3rd team to get involved. They've been very vocal about wanting to compete this year and Collison & Gay could probably help them out. If they traded Meeks, Watson, N. Johnson, & a protected 1st to the Heat, it might be enough to get it to work.
Orlando
PG - Collison / Payton / Augustin
SG - Fournier / Hezonja / Wilcox
SF - Gordon / Green / Rudez
PF - Ibaka / Gay / Onuaku
C - Vucevic / Biyombo / Zimmerman
Miami
PG - T. Johnson / Udrih / Watson / Weber
SG - Richardson / Waiters / Ellington
SF - Winslow / J. Johnson / Babbit
PF - D. Williams / McRoberts / Haslem
C - Whiteside / Reed
*waive N. Johnson, Meeks, Fernandez, McGruder, & White
Sacramento
PG - Dragic / Lawson / Farmar
SG - Afflalo / Temple / McLemore
SF - Barnes / Casspi / Richardson
PF - Tolliver / Cauley-Stein / Labissiere
C - Cousins / Koufos / Papagiannis
Are we better this year with the roster above? Maybe. Maybe not, but considering Gay & Collison could walk for nothing, it's a pretty easy decision on my part to take Dragic. It at least buys us more time to change our culture and make us look more attractive to FAs without the risk of bleeding talent this next offseason.
- More young assets to either develop or deal later on
- Maintaining enough cap to max 2 players next year
- Making the team worse by swapping Dragic for a end of the rotation expiring (rather than Gay/Collison) thus making their own draft pick more valuable next year
If you're the Kings, you by no means want that 3rd team to be in the western conference. We're competing for a playoff spot this year. I don't want to help another western conference team get better. Orlando might be a good 3rd team to get involved. They've been very vocal about wanting to compete this year and Collison & Gay could probably help them out. If they traded Meeks, Watson, N. Johnson, & a protected 1st to the Heat, it might be enough to get it to work.
Orlando
PG - Collison / Payton / Augustin
SG - Fournier / Hezonja / Wilcox
SF - Gordon / Green / Rudez
PF - Ibaka / Gay / Onuaku
C - Vucevic / Biyombo / Zimmerman
Miami
PG - T. Johnson / Udrih / Watson / Weber
SG - Richardson / Waiters / Ellington
SF - Winslow / J. Johnson / Babbit
PF - D. Williams / McRoberts / Haslem
C - Whiteside / Reed
*waive N. Johnson, Meeks, Fernandez, McGruder, & White
Sacramento
PG - Dragic / Lawson / Farmar
SG - Afflalo / Temple / McLemore
SF - Barnes / Casspi / Richardson
PF - Tolliver / Cauley-Stein / Labissiere
C - Cousins / Koufos / Papagiannis
Are we better this year with the roster above? Maybe. Maybe not, but considering Gay & Collison could walk for nothing, it's a pretty easy decision on my part to take Dragic. It at least buys us more time to change our culture and make us look more attractive to FAs without the risk of bleeding talent this next offseason.
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With Bogdans ability to shoot, I would almost rather have an all euro backcourt of Bogdan and Rubio.
Rubio is Cousins age, and his biggest shortcoming, shooting, would be offset by Bogdan. As I recall from the Olympics Bogdan can also facilitate pretty well for a SG.
There seems to be a strong interest in Rubio from the Kings but Thibs is reluctant to part until it is clear Dunn and Jones are ready.
Rubio is Cousins age, and his biggest shortcoming, shooting, would be offset by Bogdan. As I recall from the Olympics Bogdan can also facilitate pretty well for a SG.
There seems to be a strong interest in Rubio from the Kings but Thibs is reluctant to part until it is clear Dunn and Jones are ready.
Hmm Dragic's RAPM was 18th in the league last year among players who averaged 21+ MPG (which was 5th among PGs). Curry, Paul, Lowry, & Westbrook were the only PGs ahead of him. He was also 54th in the league under RPM (10th among PGs). His on/off numbers were also very respectable (+4.3 points while on the court. Boogie was +7.4 this year as a reference). These three stats are my favorite to use for measuring contribution to wins after doing some research on them, and Dragic is looking strong in all three.
One of the most injury prone guys in the league.
Also...there seems to be some erratic behavior on our part, other than some concern about dedicated Euroness:
The offense we've run in preseason looks like a roleplaying PG offense, preferably with guys who can shoot a little while the other positions handle.
There is a theme of perhaps looking for larger PGs who can play defense. Interest in Calathes, rumored interest in Dragic and Rubio would all fit that. As would interest in Dunn in the draft. On the other hand, turning down the MCW trade would not.
Letting Rondo walk and turning down MCW would indicate a lack of use for ball dominant poor shooting guards...and then we are interested in Rubio? What's he going to do unless we change the offense?
Also...there seems to be some erratic behavior on our part, other than some concern about dedicated Euroness:
The offense we've run in preseason looks like a roleplaying PG offense, preferably with guys who can shoot a little while the other positions handle.
There is a theme of perhaps looking for larger PGs who can play defense. Interest in Calathes, rumored interest in Dragic and Rubio would all fit that. As would interest in Dunn in the draft. On the other hand, turning down the MCW trade would not.
Letting Rondo walk and turning down MCW would indicate a lack of use for ball dominant poor shooting guards...and then we are interested in Rubio? What's he going to do unless we change the offense?
Agreed.
I like Rubio's defense - that alone would make him better than Rondo last season - but he's just as ball dominant, maybe even a worse outside shooter, isn't great at getting to the rim and of course there are the injuries.
Overall I just don't see Rubio as a good fit in Joerger's offense.
I'd do Gay/McLemore for Dragic.
I like Rubio's defense - that alone would make him better than Rondo last season - but he's just as ball dominant, maybe even a worse outside shooter, isn't great at getting to the rim and of course there are the injuries.
Overall I just don't see Rubio as a good fit in Joerger's offense.
I'd do Gay/McLemore for Dragic.
I was curious about Rubio and Rondo's ball dominance stats so I looked up NBA.com's time of possession numbers:
Rubio possessed the ball for 7 minutes per game, averaging 5.3 seconds per touch and 5.52 dribbles per touch.
Rondo was at 7.5, 4.75 and 4.76, respectively.
For comparison, in Joerger's system last tear, Conley's were 6.7, 4.97, and 4.99
Dragic was 6.4, 4.69 and 5.00.
Link here: http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1
Rubio possessed the ball for 7 minutes per game, averaging 5.3 seconds per touch and 5.52 dribbles per touch.
Rondo was at 7.5, 4.75 and 4.76, respectively.
For comparison, in Joerger's system last tear, Conley's were 6.7, 4.97, and 4.99
Dragic was 6.4, 4.69 and 5.00.
Link here: http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1