Gay and Collison for Goran Dragic???

funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#31
#31
Gay & McLemore for Dragic Is a deal I like significantly more and that's as someone who isn't really a Dragic fan.

I've never been a huge Rudy Gay fan either but dealing him for Dragic leaves the Kings with no one else (MAYBE Afflalo) other than Boogie who can create his own shot when needed.

Keep in mind that Miami can't offer a 1st Rounder in any deal as their 2018 pick (top 7 protected) has already been dealt to Phoenix.
 
Blob

Blob

Starter
#32
#32
The guy who authored this article is a hack, saying the Kings are looking to acquire a starting PG. Hey guess what, we already have one, his name is Darren Collison.

Collison is probably a better player than Dragon. Dragon's game declined since going to the Heat. Collison has become a deadly shooter with a career high 59.1% TS. I know fans are down on Collison for the domestic incident so but the fact is his game is polished. He has not lost any speed as he aged. Dragon doesn't get to the basket like he used to with the Suns. His TS% plummeted last year to 53.7% as he stopped drawing fouls and making 3s. Not a good sign for a 30 year old PG. And lets not forget this guy is bit of prima donna the way he forced himself out of Phoenix.

Dragon used to be whirling dervish and he's not quite as dynamic as before. He takes a lot of pounding with the style of game he plays. I do not see his game aging well with signs he is already slowing down. He's due 17M, 18M and 19.2M after this year...serious overpay. I would NOT touch this guy. Defensively the edge goes to Dragon who is the bigger and more physical, but neither one of them is exactly a stopper. Of course the Heat would love to do this trade....they are getting arguably the better PG w/o the hideous contract while adding a new starting SF for free.
 
Blob

Blob

Starter
#33
#33
twslam07 said:
People are severely overrating the expiring contracts that are Collison & Gay. If they were on longer deals, I would be more timid, but considering both Collison & Gay could easily walk next year (2 players who have had to put up with the Kings dysfunction for multiple years), I have a hard time saying no to this trade.

Dragic's deal is a bargain under the new cap. His current contract with this elevated cap equates to around $10-12 mil a year under the old one. That is not bad for an above average PG right now.

Besides, advanced stats like this guy...

ORAPM: 1.02 (16th among PGs)
DRAPM: 1.89 (3rd among PGs)
RAPM: 2.91 (6th among PGs)

ORPM: 1.42 (16th among PGs)
DRPM: 0.70 (8th among PGs)
RPM: 2.12 (10th among PGs)

Off Rtg On/Off: +3.8 pts
Def Rtg On/Off: -0.5 pts
Net Rtg On/Off: +4.3 pts

Edit: Does a successful season along with Joerger, Cousins, & Dragic enough to lure another big name here in FA next year? Maybe...
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LOL
 
Sac.1989

Sac.1989

Starter
#34
#34
i worry about deals like this. Vlade clearly likes his euro's. Theres nothing wrong with that but i hope his love doesnt blind him. As many have stated Collison isnt far off and much much cheaper.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#35
#35
Didn't we basically have this discussion already last year? The only difference is that Dragic was the expiring contract then and now Collison is expiring and Dragic has a huge deal. I suppose you could make an argument that we should take what we can get as far as long-term contracts go since Free Agents routinely snub us. But then I've always been in the "Dragic is overrated" camp so I don't really see four more years of Dragic as a positive.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#36
#36
This is not the type of move a team that says they are committed to defense should be making. Collison certainly isn't an all-world defender. He might only be average. But he's certainly better than Dragic. And Dragic is not enough of an offensive upgrade to make it anywhere close to a worthwhile deal -- especially with Rudy Gay in the mix. I wouldn't trade Collison for Dragic straight up let alone a 2 for 1.

I get the idea of trying to get a lil something for Rudy Gay before he leaves via free agency. If you can find a workable and sensible deal, do it. However, this proposal doesn't fit into that box. At all.

As someone else mentioned, if you can get Justice Winslow included then it becomes interesting and worthy of pursuit. But it's highly doubtful the Heat would entertain it.

This seems to me more like a team trying to take advantage of a team desperate to get something for Gay and possibly wash it's hands of Collison. Hopefully Vlade doesn't fall for it.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#37
#37
funkykingston said:
Gay & McLemore for Dragic Is a deal I like significantly more and that's as someone who isn't really a Dragic fan.

I've never been a huge Rudy Gay fan either but dealing him for Dragic leaves the Kings with no one else (MAYBE Afflalo) other than Boogie who can create his own shot when needed.

Keep in mind that Miami can't offer a 1st Rounder in any deal as their 2018 pick (top 7 protected) has already been dealt to Phoenix.
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Dragic can create his own shot, although I think he's a better shooter when set than off the dribble. However, he's shot plus 47% overall for his career, and that's pretty good for a jump shooter.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#38
#38
Blob said:
The guy who authored this article is a hack, saying the Kings are looking to acquire a starting PG. Hey guess what, we already have one, his name is Darren Collison.

Collison is probably a better player than Dragon. Dragon's game declined since going to the Heat. Collison has become a deadly shooter with a career high 59.1% TS. I know fans are down on Collison for the domestic incident so but the fact is his game is polished. He has not lost any speed as he aged. Dragon doesn't get to the basket like he used to with the Suns. His TS% plummeted last year to 53.7% as he stopped drawing fouls and making 3s. Not a good sign for a 30 year old PG. And lets not forget this guy is bit of prima donna the way he forced himself out of Phoenix.

Dragon used to be whirling dervish and he's not quite as dynamic as before. He takes a lot of pounding with the style of game he plays. I do not see his game aging well with signs he is already slowing down. He's due 17M, 18M and 19.2M after this year...serious overpay. I would NOT touch this guy. Defensively the edge goes to Dragon who is the bigger and more physical, but neither one of them is exactly a stopper. Of course the Heat would love to do this trade....they are getting arguably the better PG w/o the hideous contract while adding a new starting SF for free.
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And yet the best advanced stats out their that measure contribution to winning still favor Dragic. Interesting...

Serious overpay? Do you not understand the state of the NBA right now?
 
Blob

Blob

Starter
#39
#39
twslam07 said:
And yet the best advanced stats out their that measure contribution to winning still favor Dragic. Interesting...

Serious overpay? Do you not understand the state of the NBA right now?
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I understand if and when Pat Riley called to propose this trade Vlade hung up the phone in two seconds, if he didn't laugh first.
 
HndsmCelt

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#42
#42
Odd rumor this close to the start of the season. given Vlade's insistence that Ban and Rudy are staying I doubt if there is much to it from our end.
 
J

Jimbob

Bench
#43
#43
Good arguments, tough call.

A couple things I would like to see include the Kings starting the season with no distractions. So trading two potentially disgruntled FAs for a long term contract is wise. Also I want to see Barnes and Omri get plenty of playing time. Our glut at wing is a bit concerning.
 
Blob

Blob

Starter
#44
#44
twslam07 said:
So much evidence & so much data... How can anyone dispute your undeniable logic :rolleyes:
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Surprise surprise the guy who wants to trade Ben and Koufos for cap space and a second rounder (i.e. garbage) thinks a 30 year old PG with hard mileage owed $70M is a "bargain".
 
P

PHXSUNSFAN

Bench
#45
#45
Blob said:
Surprise surprise the guy who wants to trade Ben and Koufos for cap space and a second rounder (i.e. garbage) thinks a 30 year old PG with hard mileage owed $70M is a "bargain".
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How does Dragic have hard mileage when he spent many years as Nash's backup when he came into the league?
 
Blob

Blob

Starter
#46
#46
HndsmCelt said:
Odd rumor this close to the start of the season. given Vlade's insistence that Ban and Rudy are staying I doubt if there is much to it from our end.
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Vlade never insisted Rudy was staying. He said he would be accommodated if a deal made sense. I think a deal is becoming less likely as season approaches. Once teams see what they got after 20-30 games, then I think we could see some trade action.
 
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Blob

Blob

Starter
#47
#47
PHXSUNSFAN said:
How does Dragic have hard mileage when he spent many years as Nash's backup when he came into the league?
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I am referring more to his playing style than total minutes played. As a Suns fan I am sure you know this guy goes hard to the rim. He attacks. He's on the floor often. Well we didn't see as much of that in the last year, and that's either Dragon protecting himself or slowing down physically. Statistically this is reflected in half of the free throw attempts versus his heyday in Phoenix, i.e. from 4-5 FTAs per game down to 2 FTAs per game.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#48
#48
Blob said:
Surprise surprise the guy who wants to trade Ben and Koufos for cap space and a second rounder (i.e. garbage) thinks a 30 year old PG with hard mileage owed $70M is a "bargain".
Click to expand...
In regards to McLemore/Koufos, it's not right to spout lies. If you're going to claim to be a truth seeker than I would start by not misrepresenting the facts. It makes your arguments look juvenile and weak (which they often end up being).

I don't consider him to have hard mileage. He's played 15,000 minutes in his career (only 2,000 more than Cousins). Cousins plays very physical as well. Are you also suggesting we don't resign Cousins after next season because he will have "hard mileage?" Weak argument at best...

Yep, $70 mil over 4 years which is equivalent to $10-$12 mil under the old cap which is completely reasonable for a guy who is the 3rd/4th best player on a team. I would suggest stop living in the old CBA times and get with the new. If you need help with the math, I'm more than willing to help you out.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#49
#49
Blob said:
I am referring more to his playing style than total minutes played. As a Suns fan I am sure you know this guy goes hard to the rim. He attacks. He's on the floor often. Well we didn't see as much of that in the last year, and that's either Dragon protecting himself or slowing down physically. Statistically this is reflected in half of the free throw attempts versus his heyday in Phoenix, i.e. from 4-5 FTAs per game down to 2 FTAs per game.
Click to expand...
Yet his advanced stats were better this last year vs the previous year (which happened to have a higher TS%). The plot thickens...
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#50
#50
To be fair, I think Dragic is better than Collison.

The only reason why I wouldn't do this is because I feel like for this season alone, we're better off with 1 Gay and 1 Collison vs. just 1 Dragic.

I really wouldn't mind Dragic-Cousins pairing, but I just don't know if Dragic can be the same 20ppg scorer as he was in Phoenix 3 years ago. I think he's the same player, but he's older now. I also feel like this Princeton-type offense would limit him too.

Can Afflalo step up as the #3 option?
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#51
#51
206Fan said:
To be fair, I think Dragic is better than Collison.

The only reason why I wouldn't do this is because I feel like for this season alone, we're better off with 1 Gay and 1 Collison vs. just 1 Dragic.

I really wouldn't mind Dragic-Cousins pairing, but I just don't know if Dragic can be the same 20ppg scorer as he was in Phoenix 3 years ago. I think he's the same player, but he's older now. I also feel like this Princeton-type offense would limit him too.

Can Afflalo step up as the #3 option?
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In order to justify this I think the bigger question might be can Lawson step up as a 6th man strong enough that he and Dragic can spend significant minutes together in the backcourt? Because Lawson is the other talent in that scenario. And of course can we improve/maintain our defensive focus with a 2 PG (albeit Dragic is a large one) backcourt? This deal would roleplayer out the entire frontcourt except for the superstar, and then really demand you play all the remaining offensive talent you have at the guard spots as many minutes as possible. Three man Dragic/Afflalo/Lawson group with only low rotation or spot minutes for a Ben or Temple. Maybe even some minutes putting all our remaining talent on the floor with a Lawson/Dragic/Afflalo PG/SG/SF group.

I still find it all very dubious unless we are just trying to dump behind the scenes problems. Or Vlade's Euro-fetish really is a problem.
 
C

CelticsFan

Bench
#52
#52
I'm kind of torn about the possible trade. I think Dragic is the best player in the deal but is he signed for too much? Gay want's to be gone and is gone after this season, Collison is going to be a FA. Can the Kings sign a FA with the talent of Dragic? I'm not sure.
 
gil renard

gil renard

Bench
#53
#53
This is realistic value...I don't think you'll get a better offer for Gay/Collison than that. Both of them are probably gone after this year and you're not getting a FA of Dragic's caliber to sign here.
 
SLAB

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#54
#54
Honestly, at 70mil with the contracts being handed out these days isn't that a bargain for Dragic? Admittedly I know very little of his game.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#57
#57
DesertFox said:
Yes, please. A fair deal for a caliber of player the kings haven't been able to sign.
Gay is an OK scorer who needs posessions. Not a big loss.
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If it was strictly a Gay and filler for Dragic not named Collison, then it would be a better deal. In the proposed trade though, the Kings are giving up a combined 31 PPG in the two players for a 14 PPG player, that's too much of a drop off in points for starters.
 
DesertFox

DesertFox

Starter
#58
#58
kingsboi said:
If it was strictly a Gay and filler for Dragic not named Collison, then it would be a better deal. In the proposed trade though, the Kings are giving up a combined 31 PPG in the two players for a 14 PPG player, that's too much of a drop off in points for starters.
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Other players can shoot the ball more.
Afflalo. Dragic without Wade. Casspi/ Tolliver shooting 3s.

The only thing I would worry about is bench scoring, which can be remedied with some smart subbing.
 
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