Gay and Collison for Goran Dragic???

ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#1
#1
Here is a Hoopshype rumor of the day.

Rudy Gay and Darren Collison for Goran Dragic. I would hope the Kings would get a pick too.

Is this the 2 for 1 trade the Kings are looking for to trim the roster to 15?

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/sources-kings-heat-discuss-trade-involving-gay-collison-dragic/

Omri or Barnes would move into the starting Small Forward spot.

PF: DMC/ Tolliver/ Skal
SF: Barnes/ Casspi/ Temple
C: Koufos/ WCS/ Papa
SG Afflalo / McClemore / Richardson
PG: Dragic / Lawson / Farmar
 
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funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#2
#2
Uh, I'm not sure Dragic is significantly better than Collison.

There could be a draft pick or two headed the Kings' way but Dragic for Collison & Gay seems like an awful deal for the Kings.

Yeah, DC & Rudy are free agents after this season but is 4 years and $70 million for Dragic (he'll be 33 that last season) a good deal either?

For me to take that deal I'd ask for Dragic & Winslow. Miami says no but that's what I'd ask for.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#3
#3
I feel like we lose a bit in this trade. I know both Gay and Collison are expiring, but we lose A LOT of scoring with Gay gone. I really don't know where the scoring will come from if we trade both Gay and Collison.

I'm a big fan of Dragic, but I'm not sure how Dragic-Afflalo holds up defensively. I also don't know if this Princeton-type offense fits Dragic. Dragic was best when the offense ran through him in Phoenix. Dragic would benefit more from Karls' offense than this offense probably.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#4
#4
206Fan said:
I feel like we lose a bit in this trade. I know both Gay and Collison are expiring, but we lose A LOT of scoring with Gay gone. I really don't know where the scoring will come from if we trade both Gay and Collison.

I'm a big fan of Dragic, but I'm not sure how Dragic-Afflalo holds up defensively. I also don't know if this Princeton-type offense fits Dragic. Dragic was best when the offense ran through him in Phoenix. Dragic would benefit more from Karls' offense than this offense probably.
Click to expand...
I don't think Dragic is ideal in either offense.

Where he'd fit best IMO would be in a P&R heavy offense.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#5
#5
I think that's giving up too much for Goran IMO. If you replace Darren with Ben and Miami sends back something else the Kings can use, then maybe we can tango. Goran also just signed a mighty fine contract extension...I'm a fan of DC, don't see why he couldn't be here long term, not starting of course, but his services are adequate enough until the Kings do find their starting PG of the future and the present as well.
 
Sac.Kings

Sac.Kings

All-Star
#7
#7
I like Dragic, but that deal is extremely in favor of Miami. Obviously, there are some parts of that deal that have not been reported, as it is far too lopsided. Most likely some draft picks, but Winslow would be awesome. I don't think Miami would include Winslow in any deal unless a surefire superstar was headed their way.
 
Iced Espresso

Iced Espresso

Starter
#9
#9
We'd have to think there was no way we'd be able to get a decent free agent next year to even consider this. I'd rather just resign Collison for less next yer personally and let Rudy walk if this was my only option.

Now it could get interesting in a 3 team deal if we send a big away.
 
ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#11
#11
Both Kings and Miami are playing tonight.

We should keep an eye on if Gay, DC and/or Dragic are held out of their games. If so, there may be some validity to these rumors.

If all 3 play, then this is just all made up stuff from Miami's side. :eek:
 
itzcoatl

itzcoatl

Bench
#12
#12
As has been said, not crazy about this one. I'd love Winslow thrown in, but i don't think Miami does that. Otherwise, I just don't think we are getting the right value back.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#13
#13
206Fan said:
I feel like we lose a bit in this trade. I know both Gay and Collison are expiring, but we lose A LOT of scoring with Gay gone. I really don't know where the scoring will come from if we trade both Gay and Collison.

I'm a big fan of Dragic, but I'm not sure how Dragic-Afflalo holds up defensively. I also don't know if this Princeton-type offense fits Dragic. Dragic was best when the offense ran through him in Phoenix. Dragic would benefit more from Karls' offense than this offense probably.
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity I went an looked up some defensive ratings for relevant players. Interesting! I should qualify by saying that defensive ratings can be affected greatly by the system the team is running, and the players on the floor with you. So take them with a grain of salt.

As standard bearer here's Tony Allen's rating: 0.98.

Cousins: 1.07
Casspi: 1.08
Collison: 1.10
Gay: 1.09
WCS: 1.11
McLemore: 1.08
Koufos: 1.12
Barnes: 1.05
Tolliver: 1.06
Afflalo: 1.10
Temple: 1.04

Dragic's rating is 1.05, which would make him one of the better defenders on the team. At least on paper. Point is, he's at least as good, if not a better defender than Collison who we would be giving up. How his game relates to what the Kings are trying to do remains to be seen, if indeed the trade happens. Something has to be done with Gay. And better sooner than later if the Kings are serious about having a winning season. I think its best to start out of the gate with the team you want to compete with, now, and into the future.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#18
#18
We could argue the merits of this trade until the cows come home. Personally I could argue both sides of the deal. There are some questions you have to ask yourself before making this trade. First, are you going to get a better deal for Gay down the road, assuming he won't resign with the Kings? Second, are you willing to gamble on Gay resigning with the Kings. Third, is Collison willing to resign with the Kings after this season? Potentially, both Gay and Collison could walk at the end of the season leaving the Kings nothing in return other than capspace.

That would leave the Kings throwing all their eggs into the Ty Lawson basket. No offense to Ty, but is that a wise move. If Lawson has a breakout season and returns to form, what guarantee do we have that we can resign him? If he doesn't, then resigning him doesn't matter, and were left with no starting PG. So with those thoughts in mind, Dragic who has three years left on his contract brings some stability at the PG position into the forseeable future. I think you have to take all those things into consideration when putting a value on this trade.

Could the Kings do better in a perfect world? Yes, but it's not a perfect world, and the value of both Collison and Gay is not likely to get any better. Now I will admit, I like Dragic and have felt that he's been underrated at times in his career. I think he's a better defender than he's given credit for, and has a very good overall shooting percentage. He is a streaky three point shooter, but when he's careful with his shot selection, he's shot a very good percentage.

I think the team needs to be settled as much as possible starting the season if we really want to be successful. So in that vein, if the Heat made that offer, I would take it. Now if Vlade can squeeze this years 1st round pick out of them as well, then I'm really on board, because it's likely to be a pretty high one. I seriously doubt that Riley is that stupid though.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#19
#19
dude12 said:
It's two expiring contracts with no assurances that either DC or Gay resign in Miami for Dragic. This is much closer than people want to suggest. And bringing up Winslow is silly.
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Well you can bring up Winslow, but if Riley is willing to make this trade, then he's going into the rebuilding mode. Therefore he's not about to give up Winslow who would be a part of that rebuild.
 
Iced Espresso

Iced Espresso

Starter
#20
#20
dude12 said:
It's two expiring contracts with no assurances that either DC or Gay resign in Miami for Dragic. This is much closer than people want to suggest. And bringing up Winslow is silly.
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I'm surprised Miami does this deal straight up. It's not that the value isn't good, they get good talent back, but they get nothing beyond this season but cap space.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#22
#22
Iced Espresso said:
I'm surprised Miami does this deal straight up. It's not that the value isn't good, they get good talent back, but they get nothing beyond this season but cap space.
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Pat Riley has been pretty successful over the years with cap space . . .

Personally I'd rather see Gay & McLemore for Dragic than swap Collison for him.

After all D.C. And Dragic have both had some success in 2 PG lineups.

Overall though I'm not sure I wouldn't rather see the Kings stand pat and see how things shake out.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#23
#23
People are severely overrating the expiring contracts that are Collison & Gay. If they were on longer deals, I would be more timid, but considering both Collison & Gay could easily walk next year (2 players who have had to put up with the Kings dysfunction for multiple years), I have a hard time saying no to this trade.

Dragic's deal is a bargain under the new cap. His current contract with this elevated cap equates to around $10-12 mil a year under the old one. That is not bad for an above average PG right now.

Besides, advanced stats like this guy...

ORAPM: 1.02 (16th among PGs)
DRAPM: 1.89 (3rd among PGs)
RAPM: 2.91 (6th among PGs)

ORPM: 1.42 (16th among PGs)
DRPM: 0.70 (8th among PGs)
RPM: 2.12 (10th among PGs)

Off Rtg On/Off: +3.8 pts
Def Rtg On/Off: -0.5 pts
Net Rtg On/Off: +4.3 pts

Edit: Does a successful season along with Joerger, Cousins, & Dragic enough to lure another big name here in FA next year? Maybe...
 
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SacKings384

SacKings384

Starter
#25
#25
I would take this deal in a heartbeat. Dragic was fantastic in Phoenix, and yeah his contract is large but look at what guys are getting now. I didn't think we'd get anything out of Rudy, and even with a Collison filler it's still a fantastic deal. Kings do this 10/10. I don't think Riley will do it though, unless he has reason to believe they can make a big splash in FA.
 
Mass

Mass

Starter
#26
#26
Well, I would do it. I've always liked Dragic. I think he's one of the most underrated players in the league. Considering than that we could very well lose both Collison and Gay at the end of the season, with nothing in return, I think it's a pretty good deal. Then I also hope we would follow the path of teams that traded Rudy and got immediately better...

I also think this move would balance our roster. I would be pretty happy to start the season with this roster:

Koufos - WCS
Cousins - Tolliver
Barnes - Casspi
Afflalo - Temple - McLemore
Dragic - Lawson - Farmar

Plus the 3 kids. I think that's a very interesting team for a coach like DJ.
 
Hoovtrain

Hoovtrain

All-Star
#28
#28
funkykingston said:
Uh, I'm not sure Dragic is significantly better than Collison.

There could be a draft pick or two headed the Kings' way but Dragic for Collison & Gay seems like an awful deal for the Kings.

Yeah, DC & Rudy are free agents after this season but is 4 years and $70 million for Dragic (he'll be 33 that last season) a good deal either?

For me to take that deal I'd ask for Dragic & Winslow. Miami says no but that's what I'd ask for.
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This is kind of where I'm at. I'd give Gay in a second for Dragic...but giving up both for a guy that may not be significantly better than Collison makes me leery. I wasn't even factoring in the contract and age. That being said I still would probably do it. I think Dragic is a more dynamic player .
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#29
#29
SacKings384 said:
I would take this deal in a heartbeat. Dragic was fantastic in Phoenix, and yeah his contract is large but look at what guys are getting now. I didn't think we'd get anything out of Rudy, and even with a Collison filler it's still a fantastic deal. Kings do this 10/10. I don't think Riley will do it though, unless he has reason to believe they can make a big splash in FA.
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Dragic has been in the league 7 years now, and he's only had one big season above something Gay and Collison can do. In fact its not even really clear its better than Gay's best season. And Dragic did it in a run n gun guard oriented system he will not find here.

You can do this looking for synergy, to move a disgruntled player or escape DC's scandalous spitting incident. But you're taking a bath talentwise. The throw-ins would be the key. And yet if the throwins are draft picks, which they'd need to be for us to open that other roster spot for Farmar, then those are again pieces preparing for a Cousinsless future, while you make a move that may push that toward inevitability.

Best excuse would be to view this as a Dragic+Farmar for Gay+Collison deal, but its still a team with middling talent going backwards in talent.
 
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