I think it's debatable that college success means almost nothing in the pros. There's an awful lot of Duke/NC/Arizona/UCLA players who's games were well prepared for the pros. I'm not sure who Martin played for to be honest, but I would have to believe that Pitino gave Garcia a head start on the pro game of today.
I'm a fan of both Martin and Garcia. I think the debate rages on to choose between them because it makes very little sense to have them both on the team. They'll only dig into each other's playing times.
I'm a fan of both Martin and Garcia. I think the debate rages on to choose between them because it makes very little sense to have them both on the team. They'll only dig into each other's playing times.
Let's look at the flops from Duke alone: Roshown McLeod, Christian Laetner, Bobby Hurley, Danny Ferry, William Avery, Trajon Langdon, Mike Dunleavy (for a #3 pick), Cherokee Parks... the list goes on and on. Many of these players witnessed some tremendous success at the college level. Didn't help them in the NBA.
Bricklayer is right. College success means very little.
Bricklayer is right. College success means very little.
agreed...
just because someone critiques martin and garcia.... and thinks one will contribute more than the other this year, doesn't mean we are rooting for the other not to do well also...
but there are limited minutes available with the veteran depth that we have right now... so the discussion is who do you think is more ready to contribute this year... we all love the kings and want everyone to succeed... just because we have an opinion that one is more NBA ready now, doesn't mean that we are not rooting for the other to do well... hopefully both will do well for the kings, but unless we trade some of the veterans playing in front of them, it is very likely one will be riding the pine a lot this season...
just because someone critiques martin and garcia.... and thinks one will contribute more than the other this year, doesn't mean we are rooting for the other not to do well also...
but there are limited minutes available with the veteran depth that we have right now... so the discussion is who do you think is more ready to contribute this year... we all love the kings and want everyone to succeed... just because we have an opinion that one is more NBA ready now, doesn't mean that we are not rooting for the other to do well... hopefully both will do well for the kings, but unless we trade some of the veterans playing in front of them, it is very likely one will be riding the pine a lot this season...
N
I know this is very trivial and means nothing, but have any of you played NBA Live 2005? Has anyone but me wondered why they rated Kevin Martin so high? He's like a 57 or 58 on that game!
Also, if you sim ahead about 6 seasons, he has like a rating of 78 and is making all-star teams! Haha, I hope NBA Live is good at predicting the future!
Also, if you sim ahead about 6 seasons, he has like a rating of 78 and is making all-star teams! Haha, I hope NBA Live is good at predicting the future!
ummm. nbrans since bricklayer is right, should we discount jordan, perkins, worthy, bibby, walton, alcindor, duncan, ewing, david thomson, jerry west, bradley, oscar robertson, olajuwoun, drexler, westhphal, bird, johnson and call their college success translating to professional success pure coincidence?
finding a few flops is no different than finding a few proofs. the point was it was debatable and certainly not proved by the players you mentioned.
finding a few flops is no different than finding a few proofs. the point was it was debatable and certainly not proved by the players you mentioned.
WHAT? Nobody can predict what any college player or how they will fair in the NBA. Its a PREDICTION.
pre·dic·tion Audio pronunciation of "prediction" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-dkshn)
n.
1. The act of predicting.
2. Something foretold or predicted; a prophecy.
THAT is opposite of FACT
1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2.
1. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
2. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
3. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
4. Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.
It's fun to speculate but nobody knows if Garcia will be the next superstar, which IMO he won't be I am sure of that.
Bottom line is I am ready to see some dang NBA GAMES! TDOS is killing me!
pre·dic·tion Audio pronunciation of "prediction" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-dkshn)
n.
1. The act of predicting.
2. Something foretold or predicted; a prophecy.
THAT is opposite of FACT
1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2.
1. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
2. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
3. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
4. Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.
It's fun to speculate but nobody knows if Garcia will be the next superstar, which IMO he won't be I am sure of that.
Bottom line is I am ready to see some dang NBA GAMES! TDOS is killing me!
You don't help your point by bringing up stars from more than 10 years ago, because that was a different era when players HAD to go to college and play in college in order to make the NBA. Things have changed. In the last few years, sure, there have been some players who contributed to NCAA contending teams and turned into solid pros, including Okafor, Wade, Carmelo, Hinrich, and Ben Gordon. But there have been plenty of stars who didn't contribute on good NCAA teams. The fact remains that there is very little correlation between college success and NBA success. Your examples don't prove your point.
Its really not debatable -- I said it means little, and it means little. Don't know where you got "there is no correlation" from, that's a slight twist whih entirely changes the argument. Great players who will be great pros often, but not always, put up big numbers in college. BUT then again so do all kinds of players who will NOT be great pros. Either way, saying a guy averaged 20ppg in college and went to the Final Four or whatever is completely irrelevant to his pro success. Maybe he will succeed in the pros, maybe he will not. But just about EVERYBODY drafted into the pros has an impressive college track record, and the flops' records are just as impressive if not moreso than the successes. In particular in the modern era when the best talents all leave shcool in a year or two (if they even decide to attend), and the four year college guys are just the remaining guys who weren't good enough to bolt early.
Oh, I guess if you say so it's a done deal then. We'll end the debate that has transpired that doesn't exist. I still feel guys with Coach K, Olson, etc have an edge. But whatever, if it brings you and NBRANS together it's good for the community.
Brick, has anyone ever seen you and Tom Cruise in the same room together?
Brick, has anyone ever seen you and Tom Cruise in the same room together?
Perhaps it didn't come through clearly but I was attempting to give you a little credit by suggesting that you had misunderstood the original argument. Apparently not. In any case, the track record is rather blatantly (and notoriously I might add) against you, but feel free to stubbornly cling to whatever beliefs you want. That's actually got more in common with Cruise.
Last edited:
It's not debatable. Of course, you can find great NBA players that had a great college team heritage. You can also find great NBA players without a great college team heritage.
But let's stick to the the topic of the players at hand.
Just for funsies, I took a look back at the last 7 years worth of NBA drafts (2005-1999) to see how many Louisville players and how many Western Carolina players got picked. Answer?
Louisville (2) - Cisco Garcia in 2005 and Reece Gaines in 2003
Western Carolina (1) - Kevin Martin in 2004
Not much of a greater chance of being drafted coming out of either college program for the last 7 years.
How many players are there from each school on NBA rosters? Answer, the same 3 guys as above.
No real trend in the Cardinal program producing NBA players, regardless of who got drafted, in the last 7 years or having players of longevity that got drafted earlier.
BTW, Louisville has been to the NCAA tourney in 1999, 2000, 2003, 2004, and 2005 (Final 4) in the time period I examined.
Why didn't you mention Rick Patino? He's been to the big dance for 3 of his 4 years at Louisville.
It's simple. The long-term trend of FACTS reveals that there is no "edge" as you perceive it in Garcia's case. Obviously, his NCAA experience is VERY helpful, but to say that gives him an edge over a player that never went to the college big dance but has a full season of NBA experience under his belt has no basis in reality.
Garcia may become the next Mateen Cleaves or the next Michael Jordan. It's way too soon to try to read those tea leaves.
NOW the debate is over.....
But let's stick to the the topic of the players at hand.
Just for funsies, I took a look back at the last 7 years worth of NBA drafts (2005-1999) to see how many Louisville players and how many Western Carolina players got picked. Answer?
Louisville (2) - Cisco Garcia in 2005 and Reece Gaines in 2003
Western Carolina (1) - Kevin Martin in 2004
Not much of a greater chance of being drafted coming out of either college program for the last 7 years.
How many players are there from each school on NBA rosters? Answer, the same 3 guys as above.
No real trend in the Cardinal program producing NBA players, regardless of who got drafted, in the last 7 years or having players of longevity that got drafted earlier.
BTW, Louisville has been to the NCAA tourney in 1999, 2000, 2003, 2004, and 2005 (Final 4) in the time period I examined.
Why didn't you mention Rick Patino? He's been to the big dance for 3 of his 4 years at Louisville.
It's simple. The long-term trend of FACTS reveals that there is no "edge" as you perceive it in Garcia's case. Obviously, his NCAA experience is VERY helpful, but to say that gives him an edge over a player that never went to the college big dance but has a full season of NBA experience under his belt has no basis in reality.
Garcia may become the next Mateen Cleaves or the next Michael Jordan. It's way too soon to try to read those tea leaves.
NOW the debate is over.....
Last edited:
1kingzfan said:
Garcia may become the next Mateen Cleaves or the next Michael Jordan. It's way too soon to try to read those tea leaves.
NOW the debate is over.....
NOW the debate is over.....
SK and Cisco have alot of room to grow but the future looks bright. We'll see just how much SK improves and we'll see just how Cisco does. We must be patient with these 2. They are good hardworking kids. They will be alright.
It was Proffesor Plum with the Candlestick in the Lounge. I never trusted that guy.
Oh wait.. Sorry
It was Proffesor Plum with the Candlestick in the Lounge. I never trusted that guy.
Oh wait.. Sorry
Attachments
T
I think what LA Kingsfan is trying to say is this:
Say you have a player and you can put him in two different scenarios.
scenario 1: player has a strong college program and coach
scenario 2: same player has weak program and mediocre coach
scenario 1 is obviously going to better prepare the player and his skills will be higher than if he had done scenario 2.
So, college can help a player be better in the NBA, but college can not help predict his success in the NBA.
Say you have a player and you can put him in two different scenarios.
scenario 1: player has a strong college program and coach
scenario 2: same player has weak program and mediocre coach
scenario 1 is obviously going to better prepare the player and his skills will be higher than if he had done scenario 2.
So, college can help a player be better in the NBA, but college can not help predict his success in the NBA.
slugking50 said:
SK and Cisco have alot of room to grow but the future looks bright. We'll see just how much SK improves and we'll see just how Cisco does. We must be patient with these 2. They are good hardworking kids. They will be alright.
It was Proffesor Plum with the Candlestick in the Lounge. I never trusted that guy.
Oh wait.. Sorry
It was Proffesor Plum with the Candlestick in the Lounge. I never trusted that guy.
Oh wait.. Sorry
Amazing. Some of you are pretty eager to discard Kevin's potential because he didn't go to a big school and didn't (go figure) play much as a rookie under Adelman (when has THAT ever happened before???? )
I sincerely want Garcia to be a success, but I sure hope Kevin crams this attitude downsome of your throats . I wouldn't underestimate him. He COULD have transferred to a larger program, one with a chance to getting to the Big Dance, one that would have made his prospects of making the NBA more feasable. He decided to remain LOYAL to the program that gave him his chance, choosing to believe his skills would get him drafted above the name of the freaking college he atended. Maybe some of you don't put much stock in something like that, but to me, it shows a commitment to TEAM ahead of self to a degree that I haven't been lucky enough to witness much.
As has been pointed out aptly by some in this thread, college success, or size, does not automatically translate into success at the NBA level. How about we let the kids develop and see if they have the mental aptitude to raise their game over the next couple years.
It concerned me, pre-draft, that Cisco, upon making the Big Dance, did not perform well under the pressure, but I'm not holding that against him. Thus, if I am going to dismiss this as inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, I must also dismiss the fact that Kevin's TEAM didn't make the Big Dance and he didn't get the opportunity to step up or wilt as Cisco did.
Where do they go from here? I hope they both get the opportunity to make it an upward flight.
)I sincerely want Garcia to be a success, but I sure hope Kevin crams this attitude downsome of your throats
. I wouldn't underestimate him. He COULD have transferred to a larger program, one with a chance to getting to the Big Dance, one that would have made his prospects of making the NBA more feasable. He decided to remain LOYAL to the program that gave him his chance, choosing to believe his skills would get him drafted above the name of the freaking college he atended. Maybe some of you don't put much stock in something like that, but to me, it shows a commitment to TEAM ahead of self to a degree that I haven't been lucky enough to witness much.As has been pointed out aptly by some in this thread, college success, or size, does not automatically translate into success at the NBA level. How about we let the kids develop and see if they have the mental aptitude to raise their game over the next couple years.
It concerned me, pre-draft, that Cisco, upon making the Big Dance, did not perform well under the pressure, but I'm not holding that against him. Thus, if I am going to dismiss this as inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, I must also dismiss the fact that Kevin's TEAM didn't make the Big Dance and he didn't get the opportunity to step up or wilt as Cisco did.
Where do they go from here? I hope they both get the opportunity to make it an upward flight.
The competition is much weaker this year than it has been in year's past (since there's no Olympics to qualify for next year). There was sortof a big deal made a couple months ago about NBA players not wanting to play for team USA. Here's a list of the teams in the tournament. You can also keep up with the game results at Latin Basket. (Which also has a roster list.
There's also list of the NBA players in the tournament at Hoops Hype. As you can see, they're all reserve guys like Garcia.
There's also list of the NBA players in the tournament at Hoops Hype. As you can see, they're all reserve guys like Garcia.
Last edited: