Fox Watch 2025-26

pdxKingsFan said:
That is the 50 million dollar question isn't it? And will he get a second future all-NBA player displaced while on their rookie deal if he sulks because he didn't get the role he thought he deserved.

I am just grateful that it isn't our problem.
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Wait, so now Kings fans believe that Fox ran Haliburton out of town? Is that the conspiracy?
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Wait, so now Kings fans believe that Fox ran Haliburton out of town? Is that the conspiracy?
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Is that a wild take? Fox is clearly motivated to maximize his career value, and his stats next to Haliburton were depressed.

Do you think it's a "conspiracy theory" to think that the Kings avoided drafting Luka to avoid stomping on Fox's output?
 
Insomniacal Fan said:
Is that a wild take? Fox is clearly motivated to maximize his career value,
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It is to me.

Insomniacal Fan said:
and his stats next to Haliburton were depressed.
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"Depressed" in what way? the only full season he played with Haliburton, he set what were then-career highs in scoring, assists and field goal attempts.

Insomniacal Fan said:
Do you think it's a "conspiracy theory" to think that the Kings avoided drafting Luka to avoid stomping on Fox's output?
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I try to avoid attributing anything to malice that can be explained by incompetence. The Kings passed on Luka Dončić because Vlade Divac was incompetent. What I think is a conspiracy theory is the idea that the Kings did not draft Dončić because Fox and/or his people were pulling strings behind the scenes.

pdxKingsFan said:
Fox and Haliburton were not a fit together. A choice was made.
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There is a whole lot of middle ground between "A choice was made" and "Fox got him traded."

SLAB said:
I’ve always thought that. Dude clearly didn’t like playing with him. He may have said all the right things and liked him personally but their game didn’t mesh, and it showed on the court.
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Vibes are not proof. For all we know, management felt the same vibes and simply made the 'wrong'* choice.

*'Wrong' being as determined based on where you stand on each player.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
"Depressed" in what way? the only full season he played with Haliburton, he set what were then-career highs in scoring, assists and field goal attempts.
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I have to admit the statistical evidence here isn't as strong as I thought it was. But I think there's still a distinct difference in Fox's performance pre and post ASB in 2022.
ValueGGSMPFGFGA3P3PAFTFTAORBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTSFG%3P%FT%TS%USG%ORtgDRtg+/-MPPTSTRBAST
Pre484816523928454918121228122187247551913513810450.4640.2710.7540.53928.7107116-5.234.421.83.95.1
Post1111432124247256849673448313633343220.5020.3680.7310.58230.7114119-1.639.229.34.07.5


Mr. S£im Citrus said:
I try to avoid attributing anything to malice that can be explained by incompetence. The Kings passed on Luka Dončić because Vlade Divac was incompetent. What I think is a conspiracy theory is the idea that the Kings did not draft Dončić because Fox and/or his people were pulling strings behind the scenes.
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I didn't say it was malicious or was dependent on intrigue. Vlade's public statement was that
“At that position, I already had De’Aaron Fox, whom I had drafted a year earlier,” Divac said. “At the time, I believed Fox was a player who could become a franchise star in the coming years.”
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Keeping star employees happy is a very important part of the job of management. No dagger or hiding behind curtains required. It's not about pulling strings, it's about maintaining a relationship, and everybody being clear with each other about what their goals are for that relationship. If Fox and Vlade weren't on the same page, then that certainly would be incompetent.
 
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Insomniacal Fan said:
I have to admit the statistical evidence here isn't as strong as I thought it was. But I think there's still a distinct difference in Fox's performance pre and post ASB in 2022.
ValueGGSMPFGFGA3P3PAFTFTAORBTRBASTSTLBLKTOVPFPTSFG%3P%FT%TS%USG%ORtgDRtg+/-MPPTSTRBAST
Pre484816523928454918121228122187247551913513810450.4640.2710.7540.53928.7107116-5.234.421.83.95.1
Post1111432124247256849673448313633343220.5020.3680.7310.58230.7114119-1.639.229.34.07.5



I didn't say it was malicious or was dependent on intrigue. Vlade's public statement was that

Keeping star employees happy is a very important part of the job of management. No dagger or hiding behind curtains required. It's not about pulling strings, it's about maintaining a relationship, and everybody being clear with each other about what their goals are for that relationship. If Fox and Vlade weren't on the same page, then that certainly would be incompetent.
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That was Fox's second year and he was with a different management team. No way they have the infuence on draft picks. It's all on Vlade.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
There is a whole lot of middle ground between "A choice was made" and "Fox got him traded."
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The general impression around this board at the time (which wasn't one I was pushing) was that he was sulking and unhappy sharing the lead guard role with Haliburton. His first extension kicked in and everyone started railing on Fox. I think it was clear we needed to do something and just by virtue of their contracts alone I suspect it made Haliburton the easier one to move.

And my suggestion was that this could replay itself next season as Fox's big extension kicks in with a second year player who seems ascendant.
 
Insomniacal Fan said:
Keeping star employees happy is a very important part of the job of management. No dagger or hiding behind curtains required. It's not about pulling strings, it's about maintaining a relationship, and everybody being clear with each other about what their goals are for that relationship. If Fox and Vlade weren't on the same page, then that certainly would be incompetent.
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There's no "if," it's incompetence whether Divac and Fox were on the same page or not. If you pass on the BPA to make your star player happy, that's incompetence. At the absolute bare minimum, Divac could have done what Atlanta did and draft Dončić anyway, and trade him for assets.

In my Personal Record Book™, "Fox ran Haliburton out of town" is a conspiracy theory. I understand that you, specifically' did not use the words 'malice' or 'intrigue' but, AFAIC, the malice is implied in such a belief.
 
pdxKingsFan said:
The general impression around this board at the time (which wasn't one I was pushing) was that he was sulking and unhappy sharing the lead guard role with Haliburton. His first extension kicked in and everyone started railing on Fox.
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I'll take your word for it; I try to avoid entertaining such speculation.

pdxKingsFan said:
And my suggestion was that this could replay itself next season as Fox's big extension kicks in with a second year player who seems ascendant.
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"Grateful that it isn't our problem" kind of makes it sound like this is the outcome you're hoping for?
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
There's no "if," it's incompetence whether Divac and Fox were on the same page or not. If you pass on the BPA to make your star player happy, that's incompetence. At the absolute bare minimum, Divac could have done what Atlanta did and draft Dončić anyway, and trade him for assets.

In my Personal Record Book™, "Fox ran Haliburton out of town" is a conspiracy theory. I understand that you, specifically' did not use the words 'malice' or 'intrigue' but, AFAIC, the malice is implied in such a belief.
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Yeah, I don't get why people are so against the "BPA" approach of drafting, regardless of who you already have on your roster (especially when that BPA is someone like Luka). When the Kings officially went on the clock back in 2018, the fact that De'Aaron was on the roster shouldn't have impacted who was drafted. Regardless of that fact, Luka should've been a Sacramento King that night, even if it were for a short period of time, and he was later flipped to another team for assets. Draft the guy!

In reality, what SHOULD'VE happened was...

1. Draft Luka.
2. Field offers for both Luka and De'Aaron.
3. Accept the better offer.

I don't think I would ever be able to express just how pissed off the 2018 draft made me that night, and still makes me to this day. And I don't see it ever stopping. Even if/when we find our way back to relevancy, that blunder will still haunt me.

Thanks a lot (for absolutely NOTHING), Vlade!
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
"Grateful that it isn't our problem" kind of makes it sound like this is the outcome you're hoping for?
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Being put in a position where we had to decide between Fox and Haliburton sucked (regardless of the outcome). So on the surface I mean what I said, I am grateful that we don't have to go through that again.

As for what happens between Fox and his back court mates I really don't care. I think ultimately it will be too expensive to keep all three so a decision will be made. Who goes and who stays is none of my concern. I don't really have any feelings one way or another about San Antonio, they seem to be incredibly fortuitous in a few of the most anticipated lotteries of all time, but I can't hate them just for that.

Am I rooting against Fox? Yes. Absolutely.
 
QWERTYLICIOUS said:
Yeah, I don't get why people are so against the "BPA" approach of drafting, regardless of who you already have on your roster (especially when that BPA is someone like Luka). When the Kings officially went on the clock back in 2018, the fact that De'Aaron was on the roster shouldn't have impacted who was drafted. Regardless of that fact, Luka should've been a Sacramento King that night, even if it were for a short period of time, and he was later flipped to another team for assets. Draft the guy!

In reality, what SHOULD'VE happened was...

1. Draft Luka.
2. Field offers for both Luka and De'Aaron.
3. Accept the better offer.

I don't think I would ever be able to express just how pissed off the 2018 draft made me that night, and still makes me to this day. And I don't see it ever stopping. Even if/when we find our way back to relevancy, that blunder will still haunt me.

Thanks a lot (for absolutely NOTHING), Vlade!
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Brandon Williams was allegedly the driving force behind evaluating Bagley so high. He truly believed he was the top pick of the draft. To the extent we had the number two pick and Bagley was the only guy we brought in for a workout. They met with Doncic but I believe it was in Europe. They didn't meet with JJJ or any of the other big man prospects, it's possible that some of them declined a workout though. But more or less we were picking Bagley no matter what unless Phoenix did.

I think Vlade was neutral on Luka (respected his play while having character concerns which I think are valid) while Vivek and his son wanted him. If there was ever one time for Vivek to overrule everyone that was it. I do wonder if him second guessing that for 7 years played any part in acquiring Zach.
 
QWERTYLICIOUS said:
Yeah, I don't get why people are so against the "BPA" approach of drafting, regardless of who you already have on your roster (especially when that BPA is someone like Luka). When the Kings officially went on the clock back in 2018, the fact that De'Aaron was on the roster shouldn't have impacted who was drafted. Regardless of that fact, Luka should've been a Sacramento King that night, even if it were for a short period of time, and he was later flipped to another team for assets. Draft the guy!

In reality, what SHOULD'VE happened was...

1. Draft Luka.
2. Field offers for both Luka and De'Aaron.
3. Accept the better offer.

I don't think I would ever be able to express just how pissed off the 2018 draft made me that night, and still makes me to this day. And I don't see it ever stopping. Even if/when we find our way back to relevancy, that blunder will still haunt me.

Thanks a lot (for absolutely NOTHING), Vlade!
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There are sometimes choices that happen in life where you just know right away that it was a massive mistake. That draft was one of them. Could just feel it in the pit of my stomach and was almost in shock. I knew that front office was questionable at best, but just couldn't believe, until it happened, that they were that incompetent
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
There's no "if," it's incompetence whether Divac and Fox were on the same page or not. If you pass on the BPA to make your star player happy, that's incompetence. At the absolute bare minimum, Divac could have done what Atlanta did and draft Dončić anyway, and trade him for assets.

In my Personal Record Book™, "Fox ran Haliburton out of town" is a conspiracy theory. I understand that you, specifically' did not use the words 'malice' or 'intrigue' but, AFAIC, the malice is implied in such a belief.
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I think those decisions were clearly made with the relationship with Fox as an input to them. I don't think that necessarily means he or his team was pulling the strings, but that he had influence on the way things would go, even without using coercion.

One year later Fox switches agents to the legbreakers in Clutch Sports. At that point I think we can all mostly agree he's fine with coercion. What difference does a year make?

I think the boundry between coercion and "influence" is fuzzy
 
SLAB said:
I’ve always thought that. Dude clearly didn’t like playing with him. He may have said all the right things and liked him personally but their game didn’t mesh, and it showed on the court.
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It wasn't a perfect fit by any stretch, but the idea that two PG's or whatever couldn't work was a ridiculous notion. Plenty of teams have done it but it would have taken too much thought for the powers that be at the time. That said, yeah, Fox was getting very territorial. He was probably behind the push to move Davion and Carter for a wing too. Yeah, thankfully the Kings didn't make big moves for Cam. Good player, he'll come back, but paying for 1st option Cam and getting 4th option Cam and meh defense would have been a blunder.
 
Tizzy Flip said:
Fox complementing the triple doubles from Wemby and Castle with a 13/5/5 line with 6 turnovers and 1-5 from 3. Didn’t think his 3pt shooting could get worse, but he’s following up for 31% last year with 27% this year. Must still be his hand
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The hand excuse has been going on since game 4 against the warriors lol dude needs to go to Germany and find out what medical staff handled Kobe.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
The thing that has to affect their decision making is, I think that Fox makes San Antonio ready right now. Like, the only team in the west I would bet money on beating them in a seven game series is Oklahoma City and, if Wembanyama is rolling, who knows? I think they're one piece away from a championship, but acquiring that piece might cost them Harper.

And also, OKC is super-young and has a ton of picks themselves, so it's not like San Antonio can rely on a strategy of just keep with a core of kids, and hope to be peaking when OKC is on the way down, a) because OKC may not be on the way down for a long time, and b) Wemby might not be willing to wait that long.
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And they still have Denver to think about. A poised, deep veteran team with Jokic ain’t losing to the spurs in a best of 7 any time soon IMO. They are super duper talented though
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Vibes are not proof. For all we know, management felt the same vibes and simply made the 'wrong'* choice.

*'Wrong' being as determined based on where you stand on each player.
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Circling back on this we made the wrong choice in hindsight but I didn't have a major issue with it at the time. I think Fox as a person changed his priorities between when the trade was made and the conclusion of the 2023 playoffs.

That's fine. It really is.

But those priorities no longer included the Kings and if you are a Kings fan, that really sucks. Because I do genuinely believe Fox wanted to be here early in his career.
 
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