twslam07
All-Star
Just added them in for you.
Fox or Haliburton?
- Thread starter Sac4cwebb
- Start date
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
No, in the end he really didn't. Buddy is still playing, Cuz is riding the pine on 10 days ATM. Facts. That matters considering the alternative was maxing the guy out.
And also, his value was obviously not what some would think it would be when he was traded. He's healthy right now. Can still produce. And teams don't want him for more than 10 days at a time. Speaks volumes. Vlade would like his apologies now. lol.
twslam07
All-Star
Not saying you're wrong, but Fox is currently averaging the following (per 36 min) from 12/1-1/9:
.564 TS% / .486 FG% / .217 3PT% / .779 FT% / 24.3 PPG / 4.0 RPG / 5.0 APG / 1.4 SPG / 0.4 BPG / 2.4 TOPG
If he continues to put this type of stat line up for another month (trade deadline is 2/10), we may have a suitor or two willing to pay up for him.
I've said it in another thread, but we'd likely be in a better position to trade Fox in the offseason when cap space is more flexible, roster spots are open, and the lottery has been set. With Fox improving his play as of late and Fox & Haliburton posting stellar stats while on the floor with each other from 12/1-1/9, I wouldn't be opposed to giving those two the rest of the season to see if we have a potent young backcourt going forward (let the sample size build across the different guard combinations) or, at the very least, to boost Fox's trade value up again (hopefully).
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NewArena
All-Star
This.
dude, come on. You can't be this disingenuous defending your boy. Boogie now is not the Boogie from 5 years/2 major injuries ago. I shouldn't even need to type that. The trade was horrible.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Haha, my boy? Go back and read what I said at the time let alone just about every start of free agency and the opinion on the moves made that ended up as bad as I figured. In the end, Vlade won that one, no question. I can admit it, I was wrong and it might have just saved the Kings cap from hell. And Boogie is literally just about free, nobody wants him. That's enough to figure his value was NEVER all that high.
KainLear
Starter
Just for the record, "The Sacramento Kings have agreed to trade DeMarcus Cousins and Omri Casspi to the New Orleans Pelicans in exchange for Tyreke Evans, 2016 first-round draft pick Buddy Hield, Langston Galloway and first- and second-round draft picks this summer"
Boogie was unanimously one of, if not THE best C in the league at the time, to give credit where credit is due.
But I digress... not jumping into this again haha
sactowndog
All-Star
to be fair to Vlade, Vivek would let me trade earlier when a better deal was possible. I think we can all agree Vivek is the root cause of 3/4’s of the Kings problems.
sactowndog
All-Star
You're telling on yourself, Vlade
Haha I posted my receipts calling for Vlade being done in 2018.
We have to take into account that the Haliburton/Mitchell tandem plays the majority of their minutes against backups, which will make their numbers look better than the Haliburton/Fox tandem against starters.
twslam07
All-Star
Agreed, which is why I wanted to post the advanced impact stats that attempt to control for such factors.
KainLear
Starter
In related news, according to NBA.com, Tyrese Haliburton is shooting a mind-boggling 62% on step-back threes and 64% on all step-back jumpers. Here is a supercut of all of his step-back attempts this season.
(EDIT: extra stat added) As of January 11th, Tyrese Haliburton is shooting 21/34 (61.8%) on threes and 27/42 (64.3%) total on shots officially marked as ste backs by the NBA. This comes with a caveat: the NBA’s shot-type tracking is not completely accurate (see this great article by Owen Phillips) because human scorekeepers have to categorize the shots quickly while the game continues.
Haliburton shoots a more modest 12/38 (31.6%) on threes classified by the NBA as pull-ups. If you look at these attempts (here), there are certainly some that could be classified as stepbacks, and others that could probably be classified as catch & shoot or some other type.
Regardless, aggregating these attempts still paints an impressive picture: Haliburton is shooting 33/72 (45.8%) on pull-up and step-back threes combined, and 52/122 (42.6%) on all other shots types (mostly catch & shoot attempts). In total, he’s shooting 43.8% from distance.
(EDIT: extra stat added) As of January 11th, Tyrese Haliburton is shooting 21/34 (61.8%) on threes and 27/42 (64.3%) total on shots officially marked as ste backs by the NBA. This comes with a caveat: the NBA’s shot-type tracking is not completely accurate (see this great article by Owen Phillips) because human scorekeepers have to categorize the shots quickly while the game continues.
Haliburton shoots a more modest 12/38 (31.6%) on threes classified by the NBA as pull-ups. If you look at these attempts (here), there are certainly some that could be classified as stepbacks, and others that could probably be classified as catch & shoot or some other type.
Regardless, aggregating these attempts still paints an impressive picture: Haliburton is shooting 33/72 (45.8%) on pull-up and step-back threes combined, and 52/122 (42.6%) on all other shots types (mostly catch & shoot attempts). In total, he’s shooting 43.8% from distance.
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That's pretty eye-opening. A 60% three (1.8 points per shot) is a must-take shot. In the halfcourt, the likelihood that you're going to get a better shot than that if you pass it up is basically zero. He's taking fewer than one stepback three per game, but at that percentage, you have to find a way to take a LOT more until you figure out whether that percentage is real. Hali should be strongly encouraged to take the step-back three whenever it is available regardless of the shot clock until such time as his percentage slumps. Like 5 or even 10 a game. If it becomes clear that he's really more like 35-40% at that shot, then drop the strategy. Otherwise, at 1.8 pps, start gunning, keep gunning.
kb02
All-Star
60% because of Hali's internal clock as to whether it is a good or bad shot. If he increases the volume, the percentage drops.
I'd like to find out where that is because he doesn't need to be anywhere near that percentage to be more efficient than an average Kings shot.
kb02
All-Star
Not sure if I understand your question, but my gut response is wiring. Even if Hali wanted to shoot more, he likely couldn’t pull the trigger. Kinda like Buddy, who even if he wanted to shoot less, he’ll pull the trigger whenever he thinks there is an opening.
Wiring is real. For example, what is the color of the following word: RED.
Notice how your brain processed RED in two different ways? That’s wiring.
gunks
Hall of Famer
I don’t disagree with the gist of this post, as Hali is pretty clearly a pass first player, but I think if Fox gets traded and he’s “handed the keys” so to speak, he’ll get those FGAs up (just not to conscious-less gunner levels).
He was basically a 20/10 pg while Fox was on H&S. And while I can’t see Hali ever breaking 25ppg, I can see him average a pretty solid 18-22ish to go along with all those dimes.
I’m getting more a lot more on board with a Fox trade lately…SLABstrodamus’s prediction of Hali surpassing Fox seems more believable every game!
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Yet, not a single upper tier GM in the league would have chosen Cousins as their main big to build with. Professionalism, character, and culture matters a lot
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
And inevitably the Haliburton/Mitchell units start crashing once the other team goes back to their starters and Gentry immediately goes back to to his starters for the bail out.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
Absolute statements regarding a topic/point to which the person has no chance of knowing the answer never ceases to amuse.
The real answer is that you only know what you would do.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
The fact is that there was very little interest around the league, when he was completely healthy in his peak prime. Vlade had very few options, but he knew he needed to trade him. A guy who was a center himself and coveted bigs
This is where I think statistics leave a lot to be desired. Like @Capt. Factorial said, a 60% three is the best shot in the league. He should be taking that shot every time down the floor. But if he did shoot 50+ step back threes a game he wouldn't make anywhere near 60% of them because the other team would catch on and force him to pass. That's why context matters. How and when he's taking those shots, is he wide open when he caught the ball, how did he get open. For instance, you would expect that his pull up threes are a lower percentage because he's usually taking those as the primary ballhandler so he's not open.
It's a curious contradiction that Haliburton has been this scorching hot and yet we've struggled as a team offensively in a lot of those games. One of Haliburton's strengths is that he has a good understanding of the difference between a good shot and a bad shot and he usually doesn't take the bad ones. It's not that his FGA aren't scalable, they are, but the more the offense leans on him the more defenses will pay attention to stopping him (like they currently smother Buddy whenever he touches the ball) and that tilts all sorts of statistical data in the wrong direction. Hali is an opportunistic scorer who likes to pass out of pick and rolls and shoots better off kick outs from the lane. If you make him the #1 option you take away what he does well. On offense the player setting the screen, the ballhandler/distributor, and the shooter are all important contributors to a made basket.
It's a curious contradiction that Haliburton has been this scorching hot and yet we've struggled as a team offensively in a lot of those games. One of Haliburton's strengths is that he has a good understanding of the difference between a good shot and a bad shot and he usually doesn't take the bad ones. It's not that his FGA aren't scalable, they are, but the more the offense leans on him the more defenses will pay attention to stopping him (like they currently smother Buddy whenever he touches the ball) and that tilts all sorts of statistical data in the wrong direction. Hali is an opportunistic scorer who likes to pass out of pick and rolls and shoots better off kick outs from the lane. If you make him the #1 option you take away what he does well. On offense the player setting the screen, the ballhandler/distributor, and the shooter are all important contributors to a made basket.
KainLear
Starter
Makes me wonder if we give Ty more freedom, could he be a mini-Zack Lavine (who was also a PG coming into the league) as far as efficiency, and recreate a similar dynamic duo with Fox being the midrange King that DeRozen is. (I understand DeMarr is huge sizewise compare to Fox, but ultimately is about getting to his spots)
Just throwing around some random ideas in my head... haha
(Feel free to let me know how wrong I am hahaha)
kb02
All-Star
I have followed Lavine since HS. He is and has always been a score first guard. He is and has always been closer to Fox than Hali.
gunks
Hall of Famer
iirc….
Cousins was deemed untouchable until the 25th hour when Vivek decided he wanted to trade him after all…. But only for Ingram or Buddy.
As usual ownership prepooped the bed.
KainLear
Starter
To give more context to this, Fox was #10 in the league last season at scoring in the range of 0-8ft at 61.1% (1 of only 3 who isn't a big, other 2 being KD and Kawhi). He dropped a little bit at 8-16ft but still remain 47% out of 217 attempts. It's reasonable to believe if he goes back to last season's scoring shape, he could stay put close to 50%, which would be about as deadly as KD and Demar have been closing games within the 8-16ft range (53% and 52.4% respectively). Instead of the 3pt, maybe Fox should take a page out of DeRozan's book and be deadly at getting to his spot midrange (which he is already quite deadly) if he ends up the SG in this scenario where Ty runs the show.
Lastly, funny tidbit but we seem to forget how amazing Holmes was last season, to remind everyone, he was ahead of KD (yes, above KD) in both attempts from 8-16ft and percentage (60.5%, that's 61% if you round out lol)
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Do you recall anything about interest around the league? The word was that there was very little. He was viewed as a ticking time bomb, too risky. Not worth a big investment
KainLear
Starter
Give it a rest, bro lol
I won't knock on the girl's door if her dad deems her untouchable until the 25th.
