Fox or Haliburton?

[KingsFanSince85]

The fact is that there was very little interest around the league, when he was completely healthy in his peak prime. Vlade had very few options, but he knew he needed to trade him. A guy who was a center himself and coveted bigs

This is a double down on absolute statements to which you have no chance of knowing the answer.

Supposition.

You have no idea which GM’s would have drafted Cousins to build their team around back in 2010 nor do you know how many would have liked to acquire him at any point during his KINGS career.

You’re inventing your own reality on this point.

 

[steelevt]

To give more context to this, Fox was #10 in the league last season at scoring in the range of 0-8ft at 61.1% (1 of only 3 who isn't a big, other 2 being KD and Kawhi). He dropped a little bit at 8-16ft but still remain 47% out of 217 attempts. It's reasonable to believe if he goes back to last season's scoring shape, he could stay put close to 50%, which would be about as deadly as KD and Demar have been closing games within the 8-16ft range (53% and 52.4% respectively). Instead of the 3pt, maybe Fox should take a page out of DeRozan's book and be deadly at getting to his spot midrange (which he is already quite deadly) if he ends up the SG in this scenario where Ty runs the show.

Lastly, funny tidbit but we seem to forget how amazing Holmes was last season, to remind everyone, he was ahead of KD (yes, above KD) in both attempts from 8-16ft and percentage (60.5%, that's 61% if you round out lol)

Stuff like this makes me more upset watching the kings games when they go through their dry spells. You have fox who was top in the league at getting to the rim, holmes (yes he’s been out) who is deadly with his push shot, and ty is deadly at the pnr and a very good 3 pt shooter. Yet most of our plays seem to end up with a metu or bagley 3 at the end of the shot clock. People say changing the coach won’t do anything but even a normal fan like me can see what works yet they go away from it all the time.

 

[KainLear]

Stuff like this makes me more upset watching the kings games when they go through their dry spells. You have fox who was top in the league at getting to the rim, holmes (yes he’s been out) who is deadly with his push shot, and ty is deadly at the pnr and a very good 3 pt shooter. Yet most of our plays seem to end up with a metu or bagley 3 at the end of the shot clock. People say changing the coach won’t do anything but even a normal fan like me can see what works yet they go away from it all the time.

the main difference is Gentry is still running Luke Walton's system which seems to me (from eye test) encourages the extra pass from a good shot to a better shot. To a fault! There is a definitive distinction between an open 3 from Metu and a contested midrange from Fox that the players on the floor seems to either forget or ignore.

 

[SacTownKid]

the main difference is Gentry is still running Luke Walton's system which seems to me (from eye test) encourages the extra pass from a good shot to a better shot. To a fault! There is a definitive distinction between an open 3 from Metu and a contested midrange from Fox that the players on the floor seems to either forget or ignore.

Yeah, if Metu/Jones types are the best shot in your offense? You did EXACTLY what the other team wants. This idea of "team" basketball is a coaches wet dream. Coaches that also find themselves repeatedly fired throughout their career.

 

[KainLear]

Yeah, if Metu/Jones types are the best shot in your offense? You did EXACTLY what the other team wants. This idea of "team" basketball is a coaches wet dream. Coaches that also find themselves repeatedly fired throughout their career.

Walton was doing exactly that in the Lakers, which makes Vlade's decision to outright hire him the 2nd decision he ever made that I vehemently disagree.

I could go into a whole tangent of Walton being a role player himself designing a scheme to benefit role players, but I digress

 

[ESP47]

Not sure if I understand your question, but my gut response is wiring. Even if Hali wanted to shoot more, he likely couldn’t pull the trigger. Kinda like Buddy, who even if he wanted to shoot less, he’ll pull the trigger whenever he thinks there is an opening.

Wiring is real. For example, what is the color of the following word: RED.

Notice how your brain processed RED in two different ways? That’s wiring.

What I meant was that I agree that if he shoots that shot more often, his percentage will 100% go down. What I'm wondering is what it will go down to if he takes them more often? If he is still able to get it to go down at a 40% clip, then that is a much better shot attempt than any play they could run in a half court set on average. Which would mean that he should pull the trigger more often.

I agree on wiring but we've seen him play more aggressively at times so it's not like he doesn't have it in him. I don't see him as a leading scorer but he could be your second leading scorer with a bit more aggressiveness. He started the year way too passive but in the last 14 games he's averaging 18.4 points and 9.1 assists. He's taking 3 field goals per game more than he was before that stretch. All positive signs.

 

[Groovygreg]

Bleacher Report has an article listing the worst contract for each NBA team. Fox is the “winner” for the Kings.

 

[KainLear]

Bleacher Report has an article listing the worst contract for each NBA team. Fox is the “winner” for the Kings.

All that proves is Bleacher Report not doing that great of a job researching. Or short-sighted like a lot of us here are guilty of.

 

[coolhandluke]

Bleacher Report has an article listing the worst contract for each NBA team. Fox is the “winner” for the Kings.

People still reading BR these days? They are more of a joke than Trae's hair.

 

[KainLear]

All Bleacher Report's random intern who have been assigned to do too many of these "research" looked at is De'Aaron Fox's contract being the largest guarantee, and juxtapose that to his current performance, which albeit, not that great.

I am not even sure I can make a case for Buddy being a bad contract for $22m is only slightly on a higher-end for pure 3pt shooter (who had a track record of hitting them high %).

If I was that intern, I wouldn't be able to point my finger on anyone else, either.

(EDIT: I just went do my own research (heh) and sheesh, The Bleacher Report reviews team's contracts more often than Fortune 500 companies of their employees. Are they really just Buzzfeed of Sports?)

EDIT 2: Also, the first sentence of that Fox worst contract for Kings article is "Among Sacramento Kings, De'Aaron Fox still has the best chance to become a cornerstone star.")

*shrugs*

 

[Groovygreg]

View attachment 10826
All Bleacher Report's random intern who have been assigned to do too many of these "research" looked at is De'Aaron Fox's contract being the largest guarantee, and juxtapose that to his current performance, which albeit, not that great.

I am not even sure I can make a case for Buddy being a bad contract for $22m is only slightly on a higher-end for pure 3pt shooter (who had a track record of hitting them high %).

If I was that intern, I wouldn't be able to point my finger on anyone else, either.

Thank you for the salary table.

 

[Groovygreg]

All that proves is Bleacher Report not doing that great of a job researching. Or short-sighted like a lot of us here are guilty of.

Who’s your nominee for the worst contract on the Kings’ books?

 

[KainLear]

Who’s your nominee for the worst contract on the Kings’ books?

I guess Buddy's? It's still pretty marginal but one can make a case... haha
(Can I pick Luke Walton's? )

 

[steelevt]

Who’s your nominee for the worst contract on the Kings’ books?

Well the kings don’t have a lot of big contracts. I mean TT and bagley aren’t worth their contracts but there’s only 1 year left. Your only real options are fox, buddy and Barnes. Even if fox is mildly better than the other 2, he’s paid about $10 mil more. So if you have to choose, it has to be fox. But that’s more of a testament of catanella and how the kings don’t have that many bad contracts.

 

[KainLear]

Looking at the Kings' payroll now, all of a sudden I don't feel so bad. These guys are relatively cheap in the current high salary market in the NBA. (No wonder they all suck HAHA... ahem but I digress)

I wouldn't mind putting a ring on Ty's finger this off-season, around $15-20m for 4 years.

 

[serbiangoat]

Bleacher Report has an article listing the worst contract for each NBA team. Fox is the “winner” for the Kings.

Some of us predicted this, it's not hard to see he's not a max player although it's a tough race with Barnes/Buddy.

 

[Groovygreg]

I guess Buddy's? It's still pretty marginal but one can make a case... haha
(Can I pick Luke Walton's? )

Lol.

Luke’s deal is certainly worthy of dishonorable mention.

 

[kingsboi]

People still reading BR these days? They are more of a joke than Trae's hair.

speaking of Trae, how is it that a multi millionaire looks like he still gets his haircuts at the $10 barber around the block?

 

[KainLear]

Lol.

Luke’s deal is certainly worthy of dishonorable mention.

To me, Luke's the only one who's a net negative taking our team from the brink of this high-level run-you-out-of-the-gym attack-above-all young squad (maybe not the happiest locker room but winning solves everything they say) to the current YMCA selects.

 

[Groovygreg]

Some of us predicted this, it's not hard to see he's not a max player although it's a tough race with Barnes/Buddy.

At least the contact for Barnes comes off after next season; Buddy the year after.

Seems like time can’t go fast enough for the expiration date of this garbage scow of a “core” that Vlade foisted on this flailing franchise.

 

[sactowndog]

Some of us predicted this, it's not hard to see he's not a max player although it's a tough race with Barnes/Buddy.

It’s easy to dump on the Kings but Barnes at 20M this year and 18M next year is far far from a bad contract for a 6’ 8” forward who shoots 46% on catch and shoot 3’s. His name comes up in trade talks quite often for a reason. The Kings can’t trade him because the have no other forwards.

 

[NewArena]

In related news, according to NBA.com, Tyrese Haliburton is shooting a mind-boggling 62% on step-back threes and 64% on all step-back jumpers. Here is a supercut of all of his step-back attempts this season.

(EDIT: extra stat added) As of January 11th, Tyrese Haliburton is shooting 21/34 (61.8%) on threes and 27/42 (64.3%) total on shots officially marked as ste backs by the NBA. This comes with a caveat: the NBA’s shot-type tracking is not completely accurate (see this great article by Owen Phillips) because human scorekeepers have to categorize the shots quickly while the game continues.

Haliburton shoots a more modest 12/38 (31.6%) on threes classified by the NBA as pull-ups. If you look at these attempts (here), there are certainly some that could be classified as stepbacks, and others that could probably be classified as catch & shoot or some other type.

Regardless, aggregating these attempts still paints an impressive picture: Haliburton is shooting 33/72 (45.8%) on pull-up and step-back threes combined, and 52/122 (42.6%) on all other shots types (mostly catch & shoot attempts). In total, he’s shooting 43.8% from distance.

What scares me about him is what he’ll be able to do if/when we trade Fox and defenses begin to focus on him. It’ll be interesting to see how he handles that cuz I’m still not in love with his shooting technique and the way he passes up shots as a result. Say we get Ben Simmons - who on earth will actually shoot the ball on this squad? I guess we’d have to figure it out later, but, i fear we’ll have a few more headaches going forward. It certainly won’t be a boring trade deadline and dreaded off-season, that’s for sure!

 

[NewArena]

Stuff like this makes me more upset watching the kings games when they go through their dry spells. You have fox who was top in the league at getting to the rim, holmes (yes he’s been out) who is deadly with his push shot, and ty is deadly at the pnr and a very good 3 pt shooter. Yet most of our plays seem to end up with a metu or bagley 3 at the end of the shot clock. People say changing the coach won’t do anything but even a normal fan like me can see what works yet they go away from it all the time.

Truth. As a result, people are acting like we have zero talent on this team and that’s simply not true. They’re not a great or even good team right now, but, they’re certainly not this awful. Any team would be crap running whatever “system” this is. It’s a joke

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

Who’s your nominee for the worst contract on the Kings’ books?

I have to say that looking at that table you can't help but be drawn to Fox. $30M next year and he's currently shooting 25% from 3 and has a 1.83 assist to turnover ratio as a point guard. If that keeps up into next year not only will Fox be the worst contract on the Kings, but that'll be one of the worst contracts in the entire league.

 

[SacTownKid]

I have to say that looking at that table you can't help but be drawn to Fox. $30M next year and he's currently shooting 25% from 3 and has a 1.83 assist to turnover ratio as a point guard. If that keeps up into next year not only will Fox be the worst contract on the Kings, but that'll be one of the worst contracts in the entire league.

2:1 is fine and Fox is still kind of playing SG. This is the exact reason I was seriously concerned with Monte stacking lotto PG's. They are asking Fox to change, not the other way around. Last year Fox had the PG spot full stop with the exception of Walton sandbagging him with Cojo lineups it worked. Fox is shooting less, and handling less this season. He's trending up in January but still down.

 

[See_Hanks]

Haliburton 100 out of 100 times

 

[Woot!]

Stuff like this makes me more upset watching the kings games when they go through their dry spells. You have fox who was top in the league at getting to the rim, holmes (yes he’s been out) who is deadly with his push shot, and ty is deadly at the pnr and a very good 3 pt shooter. Yet most of our plays seem to end up with a metu or bagley 3 at the end of the shot clock.

Yeaahhhh....no. Sorry to be *that guy* but Metu and Bags together avg 6 3's a game. Fair to say your sense of what's happening is "jusssst a bit outside."

In re the Kings and 3's, it is amazing that the Kings are below-avg from 3 as a team (17th of 30 teams by %) when their most voluminous 3-pt shooters - Buddy (9.3 3PA, 38%), HB (4.9 3PA, 43%), and Ty (4.7 3PA, 44%) are all solid or better.

The problem, of course, is that every other 3-pt-shooting member of the rotation (Fox, Metu, Bags, Davion, Harkless, and Davis) is shooting 30% or less.

 

[steelevt]

Yeaahhhh....no. Sorry to be *that guy* but Metu and Bags together avg 6 3's a game. Fair to say your sense of what's happening is "jusssst a bit outside."

In re the Kings and 3's, it is amazing that the Kings are below-avg from 3 as a team (17th of 30 teams by %) when their most voluminous 3-pt shooters - Buddy (9.3 3PA, 38%), HB (4.9 3PA, 43%), and Ty (4.7 3PA, 44%) are all solid or better.

The problem, of course, is that every other 3-pt-shooting member of the rotation (Fox, Metu, Bags, Davion, Harkless, and Davis) is shooting 30% or less.

In my defense, I did say “seem”

 

[Woot!]

In my defense, I did say “seem”

Snort.

 

[See_Hanks]

Fox has not improved his shooting and I would have liked to see him not shooting 25% from 3pt while taking almost 4 of those a game. That's worse than Rubio, and we know how bad he was.