AleksandarN
Starter
I see Fox and Bagley like the 90s version of the glove and reign man.
Fox/Bogi works. Why not Fox/Luka? (split)
- Thread starter Joshoua
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I see Fox and Bagley like the 90s version of the glove and reign man.
ockingsfan
Starter
I think this is what Vlade wanted. A ultra fast Point Guard-Big Man combo to run and gun the Kings for the next decade.
Look at DSJ numbers across the board, his Points, Assists, Rebounds are all down across the board with Luka taking over the Mavs. DSJ looked like a stud last year and this year he looks very average. I think that's what Vlade was concerned about when making his selection of Bagley over Doncic.
Vlade wanted to build a team around Fox and he saw Bagley as the perfect compliment. Doncic, while very good, would have had Fox sacrifice a big chunk of his game, to allow Doncic to flourish. Both Fox and Doncic need the ball in their hands coming up the floor and surveying to be at their best. Vlade obviously felt Fox had the highest ceiling betwen Fox and Doncic, so he chose Bagley to compliment Fox.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Your going on the premise that by drafting Bagley, the Kings passed on talent. Both players are talented, but in different ways. So by drafting either of them, your not passing on talent, your choosing the talent that best fits the team your trying to build. How that works is something we won't really know for a couple of years. If both players end up being all stars, then who the hell cares?
As Zach Lowe noted on his podcast, if passing on Luka was because he supposedly would've needed the ball too much, then why offer 70mil to a ball dominant guard (Lavine). Apparently that wasnt the real reason. As Joeger said, the real reason was probably the ceiling thing.
That whole "fit" discussion is pointles because A) Luka would've fit great with Fox since he can shoot and B)We still need a dominant ball handling creator in order to become a real contender.
If you saw Bagley as a better prospect than Luka, then fine. You made the decision you thought was the best for the organization. Wether it was the correct call remains to be seen but at the moment the way Luka is playing, it looks like it was a wrong decision. But, every single person trying to argue this "fit with Fox" thing is most likely just coming up with excuses on why Bagley was the better pick. There really isnt anything you can argue about "fit" that should've been the conclusive factor on the draft decision. It is what it is at this point and but every time I read one of these "fit" excuses, it just makes me mad becuase that excuse has been shot down numerous times and that whole excuse is completely illogical. Its just intellectually dishonest.
That whole "fit" discussion is pointles because A) Luka would've fit great with Fox since he can shoot and B)We still need a dominant ball handling creator in order to become a real contender.
If you saw Bagley as a better prospect than Luka, then fine. You made the decision you thought was the best for the organization. Wether it was the correct call remains to be seen but at the moment the way Luka is playing, it looks like it was a wrong decision. But, every single person trying to argue this "fit with Fox" thing is most likely just coming up with excuses on why Bagley was the better pick. There really isnt anything you can argue about "fit" that should've been the conclusive factor on the draft decision. It is what it is at this point and but every time I read one of these "fit" excuses, it just makes me mad becuase that excuse has been shot down numerous times and that whole excuse is completely illogical. Its just intellectually dishonest.
Exactly!
The fit thing some bring up is the absolute worst you don’t draft for fit at 2 let alone they would fit. Now if we wanna y’all about Bagley vs Luka cieling that’s fine.
Padrino
All-Star
“Fit” isn’t an excuse. It’s an explanation. It can be disagreed with, but that doesn’t mean it’s an unreasonable justification for drafting Bagley over Doncic, or that it’s intellectually dishonest.
It may or may not be why they didn't take Luka but when you'r drafting at the top of the lottery isn't the general consensus to always take the best player available? Same goes for both the NFL and the NBA, when you're picking Top-5 in the draft, the smart move is to take the best player available and let the rest sort it self out later.
So many teams over the years have gotten into trouble because they drafted for need or fit instead of just taking the best player. The Kings have done it. It's how guys like Sam Bowie get drafted #2 instead of Michael Jordan. Remember Portland already had Clyde Drexler so they didn't need Michael Jordan....
If the Kings thought that Marvin Bagley was a better talent than Luka so be it. Hopefully they did in fact think that Bagley was better than Luka. Time will tell on that. If they thought Luka was the better talent though and took Bagley soley because of fit then that absolutely is a bad way of handling the draft.
When thought about objectively, its either an excuse or intellectually dishonest. You simply cannot say that you cant have another ball handling creator because you already got one. Thats not a legitimate reason. Most of the really succesfull teams have at least two great ball handling creators.
If you didnt think Doncic will be a good/great offensive creator, then thats your evaluation and youre entitled to it. Saying that this team doesnt need another ball handling creator is just bullsh*t.
According to Vlades plan, we did need another ball dominant guard (by offering Lavine 70mil). According to recent statistical data we do need at least one other elite ball handling creator in order to become a contender. Say what you want about Doncic and his ability or his ceiling, but fit will never be a credible reason to pass on him.
No. There is a vast difference between "an argument that one disagrees with" and "intellectual dishonesty". Please stop confusing the two.
King Baller
All-Star
While I don't like the phrase, it fits so well I will use it.
"It is what it is."
Bagley is here and Doncic is in Dallas and no amount of gnashing of teeth is going to change it.
"It is what it is."
Bagley is here and Doncic is in Dallas and no amount of gnashing of teeth is going to change it.
At this point, I've stopped thinking about the draft pretty much. My impressions of Bagley were mostly wrong, and I'm pleased I was wrong for the Kings sake. Bagley probably won't get rookie of the year, but he seems to be a good fit for this team. Vlade and company did well. They are hurting without him unfortunately. At this point he's #4 or 5 in talent level on the team. His passing could improve some., but his blocking was a surprise bonus to see.
Sactown ExPat
Starter
Lavine indicates the FO was surprised by Buddy’s development, and nothing else.
ockingsfan
Starter
Looks like DSJ may be a casualty of Luka Doncic taking over the ball handling in Dallas. Just last year, Dallas was touting DSJ as a future star and cornerstone of their rebuild. Now they are looking to trading him! Wow, in a few short months, DSJ went from untouchable to on the trade block. Many thought DSJ had a higher ceiling than Fox last year.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-mavericks-exploring-trading-dennis-000002600.html
This is why I think Vlade passed on Doncic. He liked Fox as his all-world PG and didn't want to handcuff him with a ball dominant player like Doncic.
I've watched a few Dallas games and as good as Doncic is, he dominates the ball. Even when his shots aren't dropping, he taking the shots, while his teammates stand around and look for rebounds and putbacks. The only player that seems to have a big role on offense in Dallas besides Doncic is Harrison Barnes and that's because everytime he gets the ball, he shoots it. Doncic is brilliant, but he is not going to share the ball handling with another PG.
If the Kings drafted Doncic, Fox would not be able to shine like he has this year. Doncic would had put Fox in a similar position that DSJ is in Dallas.
I still think Fox is the better overall point guard than Doncic and that Marvin Bagley will be a stud in short time.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-mavericks-exploring-trading-dennis-000002600.html
This is why I think Vlade passed on Doncic. He liked Fox as his all-world PG and didn't want to handcuff him with a ball dominant player like Doncic.
I've watched a few Dallas games and as good as Doncic is, he dominates the ball. Even when his shots aren't dropping, he taking the shots, while his teammates stand around and look for rebounds and putbacks. The only player that seems to have a big role on offense in Dallas besides Doncic is Harrison Barnes and that's because everytime he gets the ball, he shoots it. Doncic is brilliant, but he is not going to share the ball handling with another PG.
If the Kings drafted Doncic, Fox would not be able to shine like he has this year. Doncic would had put Fox in a similar position that DSJ is in Dallas.
I still think Fox is the better overall point guard than Doncic and that Marvin Bagley will be a stud in short time.
Hansel
Bench
Ask Dragic. It's not Doncic fault if Smith has such a low IQ and he can't play without hogging the ball.
I got the general impression we usually overvalue our players on this board, for once we are not. Fox is good for real, Smith simply is not.
ockingsfan
Starter
I’m not so sure it’s the BBIQ as it is that attacking point guards do better when they are the primary ball handler. Fox is an attacking point guard, so is DSJ and so is Doncic.
When a point guard plays their absolute best when they have the ball to survey the landscape and decide whether to attack or pass, their game is compromised if they are not the one handling the ball coming up the floor.
I just don’t see Doncic as someone who feels that someone else would be better than him handling the ball. He seems to demand the ball on every possession.
I just don’t think Doncic and Fox could be at their absolute best, not being the primary ball handler.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
I'm not so sure Dragic/Doncic works as well in a full NBA season as it did during short spurts of international play.
Hansel
Bench
Slovenia primarily ballhander was Dragic, Doncic doesn't need the ball all the time.
Check out Eurobasket final against Bogdan's Serbia.
Hansel
Bench
Why not?
By the way, Dragic's game is even pretty similar to Fox's (who is a better passer and a better athlete).
Sactown ExPat
Starter
Because club and country are different things. Guys will make sacrifices for their country that they would never countenance for thier club. We’re comparing 17-18 year old rising star Luka to 18-19 year old Euroleague MVP and king of Madrid Luka. One year makes a huge difference. He was never coming over here to share the spotlight with anyone. Any other timeline is simply fan fiction.
burekijogurt
Starter
EDIT: I thought we were in the long Doncic thread in the NBA forum.
this thread must be work of Lucifer himself. Its two groups of people who annoy each other to no end, yet both groups keep coming back and cannot help themselves posting. Following suite:
So first he was going to be abused nightly by the more athletic defenders in the league while bricking from the outside, and now he is a high usage ball hog who does not want to share said ball and spotlight with anyone else? I mean I mostly stay away from Luka/Bagley discussions in this thread, but i think these types of criticisms are not warranted.
this thread must be work of Lucifer himself. Its two groups of people who annoy each other to no end, yet both groups keep coming back and cannot help themselves posting. Following suite:
So first he was going to be abused nightly by the more athletic defenders in the league while bricking from the outside, and now he is a high usage ball hog who does not want to share said ball and spotlight with anyone else? I mean I mostly stay away from Luka/Bagley discussions in this thread, but i think these types of criticisms are not warranted.
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I think Fox and Doncic can function but with two of them Bogdan, Buddy, Bjelica, WCS, HG become just players you need to move to make room for players who will only play defense and have as little touches as possible.
Slovenia had Luka and Dragic, but all other players were there just to play defense, fight and shoot if they get open. Prepelic, Blazic, Muric, Rebec, Vidmar, Randolph, Dimec...
Slovenia had Luka and Dragic, but all other players were there just to play defense, fight and shoot if they get open. Prepelic, Blazic, Muric, Rebec, Vidmar, Randolph, Dimec...
Hansel
Bench
Oh ok, you talked to him I see.
Did he tell you something else?
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This argument is so tiresome because all of the non Lebron led successful teams do exactly what you say isn't good for winning basketball.
You are absolutely right if the point of an NBA game was to get your best player the best stats possible. But that's not what the point of playing basketball is about. It's about getting to the playoffs and winning championships. If stats were what it was all about, we would have been a successful franchise with Cousins here.
Fox and Doncic can both shoot. Therefore they could play on the court together. End of story. Would Fox's assist and point totals be as high? Nope. Would Doncic's? Nope. Would the team be better overall? Absolutely because it would be like adding another best player to the court. You don't think Durant, Steph and Klay's numbers take a hit playing with each other? Of course they do. There's only one ball to go around. It all comes down to how many weapons you have which gives you a multitude of options each time down the court.
Not only that but it would allow Fox to spend more time on the court because he could spend a few possessions standing in the corner ready to nail a 40% 3 point shot from a Doncic drive and kick instead of tiring himself out running most of the plays. I'd much rather have Fox out there for an extra 4-5 minutes a game than have to deal with Yogi/Mason out there. If one of these guys couldn't shoot then I'd agree that they wouldn't be a good fit but that's just not the case at all and there's really no argument against it unless you want to say that the Warriors, Rockets, Blazers etc aren't successful because they have multiple ball handlers.
Hansel
Bench
It's true about Slovenia supporting cast, on the other hand Real Madrid was full of talent and worked well as well.
ockingsfan
Starter
This teams identity and main advantage is the speed and pace that Fox puts the team at every time he has the ball.
If Doncic is sharing ball handling with Fox 50% of the time, that means you lose the speed and pace that sets this team apart those times Doncic is handling.
Again, I’m not saying that Doncic is not sensational, because he is, but the team is winning because it is Fox’s identity that makes them special. Could it be with Doncic? Maybe, but I think a lot of the speed dynamic of what makes this team special would be different.
Sactown ExPat
Starter
Nope—just know basketball. Guys who take over NBA teams at 19 yo have a certain type of mentality, yes or no?
Edit to add that, again, Slovenia has nothing to do with this conversation. Country, not club ball. And, Dragoc is now retired so we’ll never know how, or even if, their playing dynamic may have altered.
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Hansel
Bench
No. He does what the team needs. In Madrid he was playing just 20/25 minutes per game out of 40, doing the best for the team... sometimes leaving the show to Rudy Fernandez, sometimes to Llull, sometimes to Carroll, etc etc. He's clearly confident, but there is no reason to assume what you said imo.
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