Fox/Bogi works. Why not Fox/Luka? (split)

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#91
Yes fox and Doncic wouldn’t work cause Dallas might trade Smith whose garbage. But wait for it we know this even though smith and Luka played like 10 games together. Comical
both players need the ball in their hands to excel, just so happens Luka is better with the ball in his hands where as Dennis is a black hole and incapable of playing off the ball
 
#92
Imagine think 2 ball handlers couldn’t play together. It’s too bad GSW didn’t think like that durant wouldn’t be there we know curry was lights out without him. It’s too bad Houston didn’t think like that no way you get the most ball dominate pg in Paul when harden is winning mvp. No way Irving and Lebron work, no way Ben Simmons and Butler work, no way PG13/Westbrook work
 
#93
both players need the ball in their hands to excel, just so happens Luka is better with the ball in his hands where as Dennis is a black hole and incapable of playing off the ball
I just don’t understand why people on here make the correlation that it wouldn’t work with Fox Dennis sucks. When he’s out there with Bera there putting work. Every lineup with smith in it is a net negative but ya let’s push the narrative that Fox wouldn’t be that good with Luka here
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#94
I just don’t understand why people on here make the correlation that it wouldn’t work with Fox Dennis sucks. When he’s out there with Bera there putting work. Every lineup with smith in it is a net negative but ya let’s push the narrative that Fox wouldn’t be that good with Luka here
it's because Fox excels with the ball in his hands too, Fox would not have the opportunity to shine like he has in my opinion. Sure, Dennis isn't very good but Fox is a rhythm player right now and playing off the ball is not his strength.
 
#95
it's because Fox excels with the ball in his hands too, Fox would not have the opportunity to shine like he has in my opinion. Sure, Dennis isn't very good but Fox is a rhythm player right now and playing off the ball is not his strength.
Basically every winning team has multiple ball handlers it makes the team better. Does fox have the ball every play look at lebron/Kyrie nobody is more ball dominate than Lebron.

Westbrook/George
Paul/harden

Not only are these players more ball dominate than fox/Luka there also better. You take the better player and make it fit which wouldn’t be hard when Luka has played off ball alot
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#96
Basically every winning team has multiple ball handlers it makes the team better. Does fox have the ball every play look at lebron/Kyrie nobody is more ball dominate than Lebron.

Westbrook/George
Paul/harden

Not only are these players more ball dominate than fox/Luka there also better. You take the better player and make it fit which wouldn’t be hard when Luka has played off ball alot
Westbrook & George have proven nothing except they can win in the regular season

Paul has always been a pass first PG so he defers to Harden.

The Kings have Bogs to relieve Fox of his ball handling duties off the bench, adding Luka would be counter productive.

I'm not going to turn this into a Luka discussion so I've said my peace
 
#97
No. He does what the team needs. In Madrid he was playing just 20/25 minutes per game out of 40, doing the best for the team... sometimes leaving the show to Rudy Fernandez, sometimes to Llull, sometimes to Carroll, etc etc. He's clearly confident, but there is no reason to assume what you said imo.
When Luka was given keys to Real Lull was injured, Rudy is in decline and Carroll always had same role where he just enters the game and they are making plays for his shooting.

It would be fun to see not injured Lull and Luka from last year..

But again I think that when you have to ball dominant players rest of them have just to play defense and shoot and have as less contact with the ball as possible..

That's why I say if we got Luka Bogdan or Buddy would needed to be traded, because you can not use them well, and for example Ariza would be more valuable to the team than Bogdan and Buddy..
 
#99
Paul and Harden already both earned their max money while running their own teams separately. George and Westbrook already earned their max money while running their own teams separately. Yes, they are now in star tandems...but that’s not how they earned their supermaxes and maxes. You cannot have two PGs on rookie contracts both gunning for the max. That does not work.

Westbrook earned the supermax after KD left. If KD had stayed on the supermax guess where Westbrook would be...not OKC. Also, George is not a PG.
 
I think a lot of people pointing to the success of the GSW and pointing out Curry and Durant as examples of what Luka and Fox could of been, is missing the boat.

Durant is high volume scorer, but he is NOT a Point Guard and he rarely brings the ball up court like a point guard. His game is not predicated that he bring the ball up the court to survey the court. Almost always, someone else brings the ball up court and he is already on the 3 point line looking to get his shot and to score.

Having two heavy scorers like GSW doesn't mean they have two main ball handlers or Point Guards. Durant is not a Point Guard. Also, Paul George is NOT a point guard.

Luka Doncic is a Point Guard. De'Aaron Fox is a Point Guard. They play their best when they have the ball coming up court to survey the land and decide if the want to attack or pass. They play the same position.

Those other comparisons of GSW and OKC are confusing high scoring players (i.e. Durant, Paul George) as primary ball handlers. These guys are scorers. They don't need to bring the ball up court to score.

You take the ball out of De'Aaron Fox hands and just have him stand in the corner waiting for a kick out 3 pointer, you are not utilizing what makes him special, which is his ability to use his speed and decision making to take over games at point guard. For that matter, D’Fox at point guard is what makes this team special.
 
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I think a lot of people pointing to the success of the GSW and pointing out Curry and Durant as examples of what Luka and Fox could of been, is missing the boat.

Durant is high volume scorer, but he is NOT a Point Guard and he rarely brings the ball up court like a point guard. His game is not predicated that he bring the ball up the court to survey the court. Almost always, someone else brings the ball up court and he is already on the 3 point line looking to get his shot and to score.

Having two heavy scorers like GSW doesn't mean they have two main ball handlers or Point Guards. Durant is not a Point Guard. Also, Paul George is NOT a point guard.

Luka Doncic is a Point Guard. De'Aaron Fox is a Point Guard. They play their best when they have the ball coming up court to survey the land and decide if the want to attack or pass. They play the same position.

Those other comparisons of GSW and OKC are confusing high scoring players (i.e. Durant, Paul George) as primary ball handlers. These guys are scorers. They don't need to bring the ball up court to score.

You take the ball out of De'Aaron Fox hands and just have him stand in the corner waiting for a kick out 3 pointer, you are not utilizing what makes him special, which is his ability to use his speed and decision making to take over games at point guard. For that matter, D’Fox at point guard is what makes this team special.
What about the comparison to Houston which is the more realistic one. Harden/Paul ate both more ball dominate than either Luka or Fox.

I don’t understand the oh Fox will be off the ball and stand in the corner. Isn’t the offense supposed to have ball movement, he won’t just stand there the ball will move. It’s having to elite playmakers out there that would make us hard to deal with
 
What about the comparison to Houston which is the more realistic one. Harden/Paul ate both more ball dominate than either Luka or Fox.

I don’t understand the oh Fox will be off the ball and stand in the corner. Isn’t the offense supposed to have ball movement, he won’t just stand there the ball will move. It’s having to elite playmakers out there that would make us hard to deal with
Paul and Harden aren’t exactly burning up the league. They can barely get out of each other’s way this year.

Last year they made a good run because it was them two and the rest of the team was just strong defensive guys. If you haven’t noticed, we aren’t constructed with a bunch of defensive role players. Our team isn’t constructed like that.

Look how mediocre Houston is now without the all defensive type glue guys allowing Harden and Paul to take most of the shots? They will be fighting to make the playoffs this year with 2 max contract veterans.
 
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Paul and Harden aren’t exactly burning up the league. They can barely get out of each other’s way this year.

Last year they made a good run because it was them two and the rest of the team was just strong defensive guys. If you haven’t noticed, we aren’t constructed with a bunch of defensive role players. Our team isn’t constructed like that. Look how mediocre Houston is now without the all defensive type glue guys allowing Harden and Paul to take most of the shots? They will be fighting to make the playoffs this year with 2 max contract veterans.
They literally win the championship if it weren’t for a hamstring injury, They won 65 games I call that burning up the league. A year later they have a different team and CP aged in dog years in the offseason.

Getting defensive role players is probably the easiest thing to get, you’re not getting playmakers and shooters don’t come cheap. Fox is a great defender, Buddy, Bogie and Luka are serviceable while Iman is pretty good.
 
What about the comparison to Houston which is the more realistic one. Harden/Paul ate both more ball dominate than either Luka or Fox.

I don’t understand the oh Fox will be off the ball and stand in the corner. Isn’t the offense supposed to have ball movement, he won’t just stand there the ball will move. It’s having to elite playmakers out there that would make us hard to deal with
Paul and Harden both became max players while running their own teams separately, are 10+ year vets whose only remaining goal is winning a championship, have known each other for many years, and Harden actively recruited Paul to come play together. Which part of any of the above is applicable to Fox and Luka?

These are not analogous situations.
 
Paul and Harden both became max players while running their own teams separately, are 10+ year vets whose only remaining goal is winning a championship, have known each other for many years, and Harden actively recruited Paul to come play together. Which part of any of the above is applicable to Fox and Luka?

These are not analogous situations.
Luka and fox are barely 20 they can easily grow together
 
Last night Luka started at point guard for Dallas. Barea and Harris came off the bench and DSJ gonna get traded....he is probably the best rookie to enter the league in a while but to say it wouldn't have impacted the guards on our team and their chemistry is straight ignorance
 
Luka and fox are barely 20 they can easily grow together
No. They can’t. That’s not how the NBA works. One of them would need to be OK w/ less than the max. Which, if either of them was, they wouldn’t be the players we’re lauding right now. One of them would be the next CJ McCollum and we’d be talking about “hey, you know who’s underrated...Luka/Fox” and there’d be all kinds of tortured analytics in this thread to prove that Luka or Fox really just might be kind of worth the max.

Does that sound like a conversation we’re ever going to have about either player? Barring injury, will there ever be a question about either guy getting a max offer? Will pretend analytics junkies like Lowe or Pelton ever make some circuitous argument about how underrated Fox or Luka is? No. No, none of those things will be happening. Because they are both lead guards who run their teams, and that’s how it has to be. It’s just basketball.
 
No. They can’t. That’s not how the NBA works. One of them would need to be OK w/ less than the max. Which, if either of them was, they wouldn’t be the players we’re lauding right now. One of them would be the next CJ McCollum and we’d be talking about “hey, you know who’s underrated...Luka/Fox” and there’d be all kinds of tortured analytics in this thread to prove that Luka or Fox really just might be kind of worth the max.

Does that sound like a conversation we’re ever going to have about either player? Barring injury, will there ever be a question about either guy getting a max offer? Will pretend analytics junkies like Lowe or Pelton ever make some circuitous argument about how underrated Fox or Luka is? No. No, none of those things will be happening. Because they are both lead guards who run their teams, and that’s how it has to be. It’s just basketball.
Are you saying we shouldn’t be getting players as good or better than fox cause it would cause some phantom chaos?

Smith and Luka seem pretty close off the court by the way
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
Are you saying we shouldn’t be getting players as good or better than fox cause it would cause some phantom chaos?

Smith and Luka seem pretty close off the court by the way
No, that's not what he's saying. Not even close.
 
Paul and Harden aren’t exactly burning up the league. They can barely get out of each other’s way this year.

Last year they made a good run because it was them two and the rest of the team was just strong defensive guys. If you haven’t noticed, we aren’t constructed with a bunch of defensive role players. Our team isn’t constructed like that.

Look how mediocre Houston is now without the all defensive type glue guys allowing Harden and Paul to take most of the shots? They will be fighting to make the playoffs this year with 2 max contract veterans.
You don't sacrifice elite players because your team isn't built for them. You get them and then build around them. It's much easier to acquire 3&D role players than it is to land elite stars.

Paul and Harden were a freak 0-27 from 3pt land night away from going to the finals. They've started slow this year but Houston is slowly working it's way back up the standings despite not having the same talent as last year.

Also Durant plays plenty of point. He doesn't just luck into 6 assists a game. He brings the ball up the court plenty. He's the secondary ball handler behind Curry if they aren't running the high post through Draymond.

If Luka was a 6'2" PG, then your argument would make sense but he's 6'7" with PG type skills. What do you think, he would just be worthless out there if Fox ran a play and he was used as a shooter or cutter? Multiple ball handlers on the same team has worked longer than any of us have been alive. It's not some new idea being thrown around in 2018.

You guys that think a Fox/Doncic pairing would be bad should be crying bloody murder anytime Fox and Bogdan are on the court together because it's the exact same thing except Bogie isn't as good as Doncic is.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
You don't sacrifice elite players because your team isn't built for them. You get them and then build around them. It's much easier to acquire 3&D role players than it is to land elite stars.

Paul and Harden were a freak 0-27 from 3pt land night away from going to the finals. They've started slow this year but Houston is slowly working it's way back up the standings despite not having the same talent as last year.

Also Durant plays plenty of point. He doesn't just luck into 6 assists a game. He brings the ball up the court plenty. He's the secondary ball handler behind Curry if they aren't running the high post through Draymond.

If Luka was a 6'2" PG, then your argument would make sense but he's 6'7" with PG type skills. What do you think, he would just be worthless out there if Fox ran a play and he was used as a shooter or cutter? Multiple ball handlers on the same team has worked longer than any of us have been alive. It's not some new idea being thrown around in 2018.

You guys that think a Fox/Doncic pairing would be bad should be crying bloody murder anytime Fox and Bogdan are on the court together because it's the exact same thing except Bogie isn't as good as Doncic is.
People ARE increasingly talking about this though. Bogdan's been keeping the ball out of Fox's hands when they're on the floor together far too much this season (see last night's Clippers game)
 
People ARE increasingly talking about this though. Bogdan's been keeping the ball out of Fox's hands when they're on the floor together far too much this season (see last night's Clippers game)
Fox better be Lebron cause even Lebron plays off the ball this notion that fox should have the ball every play will put a ceiling on the team.
 
People ARE increasingly talking about this though. Bogdan's been keeping the ball out of Fox's hands when they're on the floor together far too much this season (see last night's Clippers game)
Is he keeping the ball out of his hands or is the coach giving him a rest from having to orchestrate the offense constantly? I thought we were having issues with Fox having to do to much. Now I'm hearing he is being sidestepped!

Side note re Bogdan, i think it wold eventually be better for him to go to a team that can play him at SG as opposed to PG/SF.
 
Is he keeping the ball out of his hands or is the coach giving him a rest from having to orchestrate the offense constantly? I thought we were having issues with Fox having to do to much. Now I'm hearing he is being sidestepped!

Side note re Bogdan, i think it wold eventually be better for him to go to a team that can play him at SG as opposed to PG/SF.
Get out of here with that he's ours!!
 
Get out of here with that he's ours!!
If Buddy and Bogdan both sustain their play, then I think things will get interesting in the offseason. Both players are starters in the NBA, but as of right now, it's hard for the Kings to justify starting both players because neither can defend SFs. This winning could help convince Bogdan that coming off the bench is best, but let's be honest, he's played too good to be a 6th man.
 
If Buddy and Bogdan both sustain their play, then I think things will get interesting in the offseason. Both players are starters in the NBA, but as of right now, it's hard for the Kings to justify starting both players because neither can defend SFs. This winning could help convince Bogdan that coming off the bench is best, but let's be honest, he's played too good to be a 6th man.
I’m not sure if Bogi really cares about starting or not. He’s getting starters minutes and is out there at the end of games which is what matters most.
 
If Buddy and Bogdan both sustain their play, then I think things will get interesting in the offseason. Both players are starters in the NBA, but as of right now, it's hard for the Kings to justify starting both players because neither can defend SFs. This winning could help convince Bogdan that coming off the bench is best, but let's be honest, he's played too good to be a 6th man.
Ginobli was a starter quality of player too.

There is absolutely no reason why you can't have 6 or 7 players on your team that are starters on other teams and even potential all stars. When you have an assassin coming off the bench, that allows you to keep you offensive pressure on the entire game. I think there's a cultural thing at play we don't see, and Vlade is at the center of it. Vlade is like a god in Serbia. Bogi being recruited by him and coming over here is not typical NBA business. Bogi will have loyalty to Vlade and our system and whatever we need him to do, far beyond what he would have to another team. He wants to help Vlade in his mission to bring a championship to Sac, and if that means winning a few 6th man awards along the way, that, imo, is absolutely no problem.

For the record I think Nemenja would be willing to come off the bench for this team too, long term. And I want that.